This new section is a Government amendment and carries out a principle already agreed to.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL, 1924.—REPORT STAGE RESUMED.
New Section. Before Section 69 to insert a new section as follows:—
69:—All district lunatic asylums maintained by county councils under Section 9 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, shall henceforth be styled and known as district mental hospitals, and the title of every such district lunatic asylum shall be and is hereby amended by the substitution therein of the words "mental hospital" for the words "lunatic asylum."
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Section agreed to.
I beg to move:—
New Section. Before Section 71 to insert a new section as follows:—
"71.—The following enactments, that is to say, sub-section (1) of Section 201 of the Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878 (41 and 42 Vic. ch. 52) and sub-sections (7) and (8) of Section 51 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898 (61 and 62 Vic. ch. 37) shall not apply to a contract made by a sanitary authority to pay fees for professional services."
I must apologise to the Seanad for bringing up this motion again. A fortnight ago I proposed it, and there was a certain amount of debate in connection with it, but in looking over the reports I came to the conclusion that I was misunderstood or misinterpreted or that I did not make myself sufficiently clear when I brought the matter up in Committee. I had no idea of proposing a repeal of the section or an amendment of the section. All I aimed at was to try and exempt certain professional officers from coming under this control. It has caused, undoubtedly, some hardships which I have come in contact with myself, and all I asked was that this section should not apply to particular officers. If it is at all possible for the Minister to meet me sympathetically, then I should be quite satisfied if he would undertake to investigate any cases that may be brought before him and adjudicate upon them himself. At present it appears to me that the law lays down hard and fast rules which cannot be passed over. This question of the £50 contract, or services rendered, requiring a sealed contract, is from the professional man's point of view a very objectionable thing. I have had long experience of a great number of boards not only in Ireland but in England, and I have had dealings with Governments and I never had a sealed contract with any one of them. It was simply by order of the Board conveyed to me by their officer. That is the method generally accepted by the profession at large. There is undoubtedly a safeguard guaranteed to officers in that they may have a writ in their pockets and when six months has expired they may hand it in. I do not think that is the way the profession would start at this time of the day, and if it is at all possible that there may be some modification to meet us we should be extremely grateful. I would suggest those words myself. I thought that possibly the prominent legal members of the Seanad, or the Minister, might devise some form of words to give some abatement of this very serious hindrance.
I beg to second this amendment. I have been asked by a good many members of the profession to which I have the honour to belong to point out that if some arrangement, is not made such as Senator Sir John Griffith has intimated that there is a fear, as I understand the situation, that the profession will be under certain disabilities to which they were not under in the past. It appears that under the old form of Local Government in this country that the Government had power to dispense——
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Power to dispense with what?
With the actual service of these bills within six months. They had power to extend the time.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Yes, but not to dispense.
Yes, to extend the time. I would like to know if the Minister at present has got that power? If he has I think it would largely meet the case. If he has not I would like to point out that there are a great many cases in which the engineer could not possibly furnish his bill within six months, because he would not know what was due. If the power that was possessed by the old Local Government Board is maintained by the Minister, the power of extending the time in cases where he thought it was justified, I think the case would be fairly met. If not, I press for the acceptance of the amendment.
I think Senator Griffith realises himself the difficulty of accepting this amendment and deleting this very important section. It would be a very difficult thing to make an exception in respect of professional gentlemen and to permit them to enter into contracts not under seal. After all, that is the only way in which a local authority will have an idea of the amount of the contract and what it is for. A contract for a sum over £50 is quite an important matter. I do not think it would be fair, and in fact it would not be possible to make concessions in that direction. With regard to Senator Barrington's point, I would like first to point out that the Statute of Limitations does not start to run until the debt is due, and until the creditor is actually aware of the amount of money due. I have power under the 1909 Act to extend the limitations up to two years. In the ordinary course it is three months. I can understand that a case might arise for extending it for two years. That enables me to get rid of any hardship that might arise in any particular case. With all respect, I do not think these engineers are under any disability, and I ask Senator Sir John Griffith not to press his amendment.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Do you wish the amendment put, Senator Sir John Griffith?
Under these circumstances I do not.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
AMENDMENT 60.
I beg to propose:
60. New section. Before section 75, to insert a new section as follows:—
75.—(1) Save as is hereinafter provided, all appointments to any permanent office or situation in the clerical grades of the service of a local authority shall be made by means of open competitive examination in accordance with regulations made by the local authority and approved by the Minister. Irish shall be a compulsory subject at such examinations.
(2) Every such open competitive examination shall be open to all persons desiring to attend it who are ordinarily resident in Ireland and pay the fees and possess the qualifications as to age, health and character prescribed by the regulations relating to the examination.
(3) A local authority with the consent of the Minister may by the regulations relating to examinations held under this section restrict competition to persons ordinarily resident in the area of the local authority or of an area of another local authority adjoining or comprising that of the first-mentioned local authority or may provide that a proportion of the vacancies to be filled shall be filled by appointments of persons so qualified as aforesaid.
(4) Two or more local authorities may make joint arrangements for the holding of examinations for the purposes of this section.
(5) A local authority or two or more local authorities acting jointly may enter into an agreement with the Civil Service Commissioners for the conduct of examinations for the purpose of this section by those Commissioners.
(6) Subject to the assent of the Minister, this section shall not apply to appointments made by way of promotion or transfer of a person already employed by a local authority or by way of transfer of a person already employed in the same or a similar capacity by another local authority.
(7) Any question as to whether an appointment comes within the scope of this section or otherwise arising under this section shall be determined by the Minister.
The object of this amendment is to ensure that all appointments to the clerical services of every local authority will be made through the medium of open competitive examination. I think the principles of it will be generally accepted by the Seanad. I think the details will also satisfy the various requirements. It is an effort to deal, as far as possible, with the scandals, irregularities, nepotism, and canvassing influences that are inherently associated with most appointments made by local authorities. Where appointments to a clerical position are not made by open competition, with certain necessary professional qualifications, it will be almost invariably found that efficiency and suitability are at a discount, and that ability to influence and corrupt is at a premium. I am sure that every member of a local authority will welcome any provision that will free them from the very irregular and unpleasant attentions to which he is subjected whenever a vacancy of a clerical kind occurs in any of these local authorities. The first section provides that there shall be an appointment by open competition under the regulations made by the local authority and approved by the Minister. The second sub-section provides that the examination shall be open to people ordinarily resident in Ireland, and who pay the fees and possess the qualifications as to age, health, and so forth that may be laid down. The third sub-section provides that any local authority may, with the consent of the Minister, restrict the competition to persons ordinarily resident within the area of the local authority or that of the adjacent local authority. The fourth sub-section enables two or more local authorities to make joint arrangements for the holding of examinations. For instance, an urban council might at comparatively small expense like to join up with two or more similar townships for the purposes of the examinations. Sub-section 5 enables the local authority to enter into an agreement with the Civil Service Commissioners regarding the conduct of the examination. Sub-section 6 is an important one, because it enables the council, with the assent of the Minister, to dispense with open competitive examination in respect of officers already employed by other authorities transferred to the new authority, or in the case of promotion. Sub-section 7 leaves it to the Minister to decide in cases where there was a doubt as to whether any particular position or positions come within the terms of this section.
I beg to second the amendment. I just want to say this: that this amendment has been put down as a result of the discussion that took place on the Committee Stage of the Bill when an amendment was being moved to deal with the question of canvassing, and the suggestion was made that the way to deal with it was to institute a kind of competitive examination or Civil Service examination for clerical positions under these bodies. We all must admit that heretofore, under the system that was in operation, it did not naturally follow that it was the person with the best qualifications that got the position, but the person with the most influence. In order to prevent a recurrence of this, this amendment is moved. Now, we do know that members on public boards who have to give a considerable amount of their time to the discharge of their duties have been placed in an extremely awkward position for themselves when appointments were being made by local bodies.
We know that this system of canvassing developed into a high art. The unfortunate member of a public board, if in business in a small way, was canvassed by his best customers, who put the screw on him to get him to vote for a particular candidate. In order to protect members of public boards, and to secure that the people appointed would be the best people for the position, we bring forward this amendment. It may require some alteration, but if accepted it will concede a principle, and it will be easy to establish in future that positions that can be filled by competition shall be so filled, and that people with the most brains and intelligence, whether they have local influence or not, will be appointed to those positions.
I should like to know whether the proposer and seconder would agree to delete the words "clerical grades" so that it would apply to all appointments?
That would not be practicable. It would then include doctors and engineers, and I think it would also mean ordinary working men. If it were practicable I would agree to it, but I believe that it is not.
I support the amendment, and I think it should be supported. I had some slight doubt as to whether Section 6 provides the appropriate way to deal with promotions. I think promotions in a council should be the concern of the council, and not of the Minister, and I think the test of examinations should not be applied to them. These promotions, in my opinion, should be within the competency of the local authorities, and should not be included in this scheme. If they are not specifically excluded there would be danger there would be some cause shown why a man should not be promoted. The matter of promotion should be the inherent right of the council. With that exception I have referred to, I support the amendment. It meets the case, in my opinion, in the way it should be met.
The principle underlying the amendment is a sound one, and I support it. Anyone with experience of local administration knows what has happened, and is happening still. When an appointment was vacant it did not always result that the best man was appointed to the position. Where it is a matter of promotion or transfer, the clause, as drafted, would, I think, give rise to some difficulty. That is not a very material point, and, generally speaking, I am in favour of the amendment and will vote for it.
I am in favour of this amendment. With regard to the people who will prescribe the subjects of the examinations, if Section 5 implies that the Civil Service Commissioners will prescribe the subjects of examinations it would be all right, but I do not think it does.
Under sub-section (1) it does.
That covers it.
We are all much in sympathy with the principle of this amendment. So far as it goes it seems to be well thought out, and very worthy of support, in the ordinary way. In the Committee Stage I mentioned that I intended bringing a provision of this kind into the Bill, but when we started to hammer the thing out it grew to such large proportions that we found it to be necessary to deal with it in the form of a separate Bill. I am still of that opinion. This amendment goes a long way to meet the situation, but we have not had the opportunity to think the matter out. There are various phrases in the amendment that might require some legal investigation, for instance, to know exactly what clerical grade means, and to know whether we should not extend the term to include professional people and others. There are several other points in it that will require the closest investigation. I feel the only effect of accepting this amendment now would be that when it goes back to the Dáil it would mean that a great number of amendments would come back here, to be amended again, which would delay the passage of the Bill for a considerable period. I can promise the Senator to bring in a Bill soon which will embody the principle of this amendment, and which will give more satisfaction to him and everybody else. For that reason I ask him to withdraw the amendment for the time being, and I will try to meet his views in a more comprehensive measure later on.
In view of the promise of the Minister I do not want to press the amendment. I hope the measure he speaks of will not be unduly delayed. Everyone condemns the present system, and the real thing is to make an effort to remedy it as far as possible. Owing to the promise made by the Minister I withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
AMENDMENT 61 (GOVERNMENT AMENDMENT.)
Section 77, sub-section (1), page 34, lines 41-42. To delete the words "and in such rules provision shall be made so that writs" and to substitute therefor the words "in such manner that units."
This was my amendment originally, but I would like to make a few remarks on the general effect of these Orders. Under this section the Minister takes power to make rules and regulations, and he has gone to a very considerable extent to meet the demand of the House that the accounts should be in a form capable of comparison, and further that these rules shall be laid. In regard to the laying of rules, which has an important bearing on this point, General Order as to accounts of Board of Health, 1924, in due course was laid, and in due course, as no objection was raised, became operative. The House will recollect I raised the matter of the unsuitability and the complexity of these accounts for practical purposes. In these accounts, or in the order to which these accounts are scheduled, it is stated that the order shall come into operation on the 1st day of April, 1924, that rules and regulations therein contained shall on and after said day have effect in regard to the several matters to which they relate, and it is provided that the Minister for Local Government may from time to time consent to any departure from such rules and regulations. These rules and regulations have been materially varied as laid before this House. I understand and I think there is no doubt about it that any variation of these rules and regulations constitutes new regulations and should also be laid. No such new regulation has been laid, in spite of the fact that a totally new form of accounts has been introduced. The origin of these accounts is obscure, and I have no knowledge of them. These accounts are an alteration in substance, and are essentially different from the statutory accounts which were approved by this House, and by virtue of which approval they are sacred and could not be altered. I see in one of these accounts I have here "Dollard's simplified series, copyright, Medical return, cut leaf pattern," and so on; and the other one has "Dollard's simplified series Diet distribution book, copyright register No. 77671/2.
The obvious inference of this is that the printers have acquired a copyright in certain statutory regulations which have never received the approval of this House, which by virtue of not being challenged have automatically become statutory regulations. The question may be insignificant, but the principle is very big, and it shows what a farce a number of these rules and regulations may be if they are not watched carefully, and how this laying of papers on the Table may mean nothing at all. This is an instance of that, so that we should be exceedingly particular to see that our sovereign rights in this matter are safeguarded.
I do not think I have anything to say on Senator Sir John Keane's statement. It is a matter of which I have not got any notice, and I do not think it arises immediately out of this Bill. If there is any matter he has to complain of, and if he makes any representations to me, I will be prepared to deal with it. That is the ordinary way. But without notice I am not prepared to make any statement on the allegations he has made.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
This is a matter, Senator, that, of course, affects this House, the powers of this House, and their control over these documents. This is a very serious matter and one, I think, that the House would be bound to take cognisance of, if the fact is that a certain set of papers were laid upon the Table of this House and subsequently, by virtue of that, became operative and afterwards a completely new set should be brought in without being submitted to us. But it is not a very convenient thing to raise on this amendment, and I would suggest to you that if it is of sufficient importance— and I am not by any means suggesting that it is not—to be dealt with, that you should draw attention to it at some future date.
I had some doubts as to whether you would have allowed this indulgence to me. But the Minister has now notice of the matter and I should like an opportunity to raise it as a separate issue on some convenient day.
Amendment put and agreed to.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
The last amendment on the White Paper is a purely formal matter, to delete in Section 79, page 35, line 17, the figures "1924" and to substitute therefor the figures "1925."
Amendment put and agreed to.
Amendment by Senator Kenny:—
62.—Second Schedule. Rule I., page 35. To add at the end of Rule 1. the words "provided that in electing the board of health the county council shall elect one representative at least from each county electoral area."
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Senator Kenny is not here. With regard to Senator Mrs. Wyse-Power's amendment and Senator Kenny's, I understand that both are accepted by the Government, and if that is so, I presume that the House will pass them.
I move:—
Second Schedule. Page 35. Before Rule 2 to insert a new rule as follows:—
"2.—The members of the Board of Health shall be elected as follows:
(a) for each county electoral area in the county health district one member of the board of health shall be elected from among the county councillors elected for that area;
(b) of the other members (in this rule called additional members) any group of county councillors comprising the necessary number of such councillors may nominate a councillor to be a member of the board of health, and such member shall be elected on such nomination without any voting;
(c) the remainder of the additional members shall be elected successively by a majority of the votes of the county councillors who are not members of any such group of county councillors as aforesaid;
(d) the number of councillors necessary to form a group for the purposes of this rule shall be the number obtained by dividing the total number of county councillors present at the election by the number of additional members to be elected, or where the number so obtained is not a whole number the whole number next greater than the number so obtained;
(e) no county councillor may be a member of more than one group."
I really think that this amendment is too complicated to be put before a county council when electing members to the board of health.
Is amendment 62 withdrawn, sir?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
That was to be moved by Senator Kenny, but the next amendment covers it. We are dealing with Senator Mrs. Wyse-Power's amendment now.
I am opposed to having such a complicated thing as this put before a county council. I think it is very hard to follow it and that it ought to be left to their discretion to elect the members of the board of health without having to go through all the procedure set out in the amendment.
I think that the complication is not as great as Senator Linehan imagines. If he reads it carefully I think he will see that any child could figure it out. There is one thing that I did not explain on the last day, and that, I think, is very important; that is, that the county council may adopt this method, or it may not. It only says "may"; it is not "shall.""Shall" occurs for the election of the county councillors for the area, but in the grouping system they may, if they so desire, use this method, and I think you will agree that it will mean a method of proportional representation in the election of the county board of health.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
That distinction you will find, Senator, in (a), because (a) is "shall." When you come to (b) it is "may nominate."
In that case I withdraw my opposition.
Amendments put and agreed to.
I move:—
Second Schedule. Page 36. Rule 13. To add at the end of the rule the words "but where the casual vacancy is occasioned by a member of the board of health elected for an electoral area under paragraph (a) of rule 2 of these rules, the casual vacancy shall be filled from among county councillors elected in that electoral area."
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
This is consequential.
Amendment put, and agreed to.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Amendment 65, by Senator O'Farrell, would have been consequential upon an amendment that has been rejected. Therefore it goes out.
Amendment not moved.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Amendment 67, standing in the name of Senator Butler, would also have been consequential upon an amendment which has been rejected.
Amendment not moved.
Senator Dowdall's amendment is necessary in view of a previous amendment that was carried. I would move it, sir.
Seventh Schedule. Page 39. To insert in the appropriate place the following words and figures:—
9 Edw. VII. c. 32—The Health Resorts and Watering-Places (Ireland) Act, 1909.—The whole Act. Amendment put, and agreed to.
Does the Title require amending? It says: "An Act to amend the law relating to Local Government in Ireland." Should that not be "in Saorstát Eireann"? It is different on the outside of the Bill from the inside.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Well, the greater includes the less; we want the less to include the greater.
I thought it had been amended.
It would do without these words at all.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I understand that it has already been amended but has been misprinted.
What about the date, 1924?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Shall we amend it now; that the title be amended by inserting instead of the words "in Ireland" the words "Saorstát Eireann"?
In the Bill I have it is "Saorstát Eireann."
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
We will leave out the words, whatever they are, that occur after "Local Government," so that the Title will read "An Act to amend the law relating to Local Government."
What about "1924"?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
It is not part of the Bill, but it would be better to amend it. I think, for the sake of accuracy. That would be done by the printers; it does not require an amendment by the House.
I would like to call your attention to the Seventh Schedule, "Local Government Act, 1919, Section 8." I think there is some misconception about the pensions to be awarded to solicitors.
It is repealed by this Bill.
In that case solicitors will not be able to get the advantage of any Act?
No
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
That was one of the considerations that you might have considered yesterday, Senator.
It shows that there must have been some misunderstanding on the part of Senators who voted against me.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
There certainly was on the part of some.
You were good enough to say, sir, that an amendment left over yesterday might be brought up at the later stage. As it would involve a very considerable change of wording it may be better to do it now, instead of on the last stage. It deals with Section 38, page 21, line 4, and it is about the break in a term of service of a pensionable officer under a committee. The principle was agreed to yesterday, but it was pointed out by Senator Bennett that it gave a better chance to the men I referred to if their service was broken. I have a new form of words that will safeguard that:
Provided that for the purposes of this paragraph the period of service of such a person shall be deemed to be continuous, notwithstanding that at any time between the 1st day of January, 1919, and the 6th day of December, 1921, such service was interrupted for a period of not more than six months owing to the committee or joint committee in whose service such person then was serving ceased to administer the said Agricultural and Technical Instruction (Ireland) Act, 1899.
I will accept that amendment.
Amendment put and agreed to.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
The House will recollect that we are not to meet until next Thursday week. I understand it would facilitate the business of the Government—I merely throw it out as a suggestion and I express no opinion on it—if the House would be now satisfied to take up the final stage of this Bill.
I think there were some matters left over for the final stage in which Senators were interested.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
We have disposed of all of them. I am merely putting the matter before the House. If Senators are of opinion that they can do it, it would be a facility to the Government, but it would be necessary for some Senator to move the suspension of the Standing Orders for that purpose.
I think there is an objection to proceeding in that way. Some of us may like to make a protest, if only a formal one, against certain provisions of this Bill, and it may come better after reflection.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I quite feel the force of that. If there is a feeling amongst any Senators against it, of course it cannot be done.
Is there any serious reason why the Government want to get it through before a certain date?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I suppose the real reason is that they want to get on with some other Bills.
I thought it might be in connection with the local elections.
Of course the coming elections are the primary reason. They are down for the end of the next month, and at the present rate of progress we will not be able to hold them. The sooner we hold them the better. Every week counts, and perhaps we could save a week by having the Fifth Reading now.
I do not quite appreciate the remark that every week counts. I agree that every week would count if the new councils could strike the rate for 1925-26, but I am told that that will not be possible. If the Minister would give an assurance that the new councils will strike the new rate, I would certainly offer no opposition to the speedy passage of this Bill into law.
I am afraid that would not be possible.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
In view of the date it seems that is out of the question. Via trita via tuta—let us stick to the old roads.
The Seanad adjourned at 4.15 p.m. to Thursday, 5th March, 1925.