The question is that this Bill do now pass.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL, 1924—FIFTH STAGE.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Before this Bill passes, I should like to enter one final protest against the clauses of the Bill that deal with the maintenance of main roads. Naturally, one does not expect anything to be done now. Throughout the whole debate on this Bill I fear the Government has revealed the fact that they have no policy for dealing with this very difficult and, to the rural ratepayers, very anxious problem. It is because one feels that the Government may be met with a very difficult issue in the near future that one laments this lack of policy. The rural ratepayers cannot possibly afford to maintain the main roads up to the standard suitable for modern civilisation. I refer to their having to cater for modern motor traffic. Some other fund must be created which will relieve the rural ratepayers of this burden. This Bill makes no provision for dealing with that question. It is for that reason that I wish to enter my protest now and, at the same time, to ask the Government whether they will give some indication of the measures that they have in contemplation for dealing with this important problem.
I quite agree with Senator Sir John Keane in his views with regard to this question of roads. The road difficulty in this country has been an outstanding difficulty. It is a question of very great importance, not only to the rural communities but also to the country at large, and the sooner we do tackle this question the better for the country as a whole. I have always held the view that there should be two categories of roads—national roads and district roads. Judging by the experience of other countries, I do not think that any other method of dealing with the road question will ever be successful, except in one direction, and that is having the national and main roads kept up by a central authority and the district roads kept up by the counties.
With regard to the Bill generally, I would like to say that I think it is a good Bill, and I think it is a step in the right direction. We have had a system of local government enforced in this country since 1898. That system was modelled on the English plan. I do not think that it is suitable to the conditions of Ireland. We are not a rich country like England, and we want an inexpensive method of local administration and of local government. I think that this Bill, as far as it goes, is a step in the right direction, but I am not very sure that even with this Bill, and even with the reforms which it has made in connection with the operation of local administration, the burden on the ratepayers will not be found to be exceedingly heavy. I am not at all sure that after some years' experience of this Bill a demand will not arise in this country for a still cheaper method of local administration. I say that this Bill is a step in the right direction. I have supported it all through, and I congratulate the Minister and his Department on the way in which they have engineered this very complicated Bill—a Bill which has raised many controversial points—through the Seanad.
With regard to the roads, it seems that they are the great difficulty in this country at the present moment. They are the greatest problem we have to face. It seems to me that some means will have to be taken to make those who use and very often break-up the roads pay for the roads. At present they pay a very small sum. These big motor lorries which travel along the roads break them up, and the owners pay almost nothing for the upkeep of the roads. The railroads are kept up by the owners. The tramways are maintained by the tramway owners, but the roads, which are used by these heavy lorries, are not kept up by the owners, but by the ratepayers. These lorries use these roads in competition with railways, canals. and tramways. The only way I would consider fair would be that the owners of those lorries would pay whatever may be considered a proper tax on oil, or whatever means may be devised to make those who cut up the roads pay for them. Then the ratepayers will have a chance of keeping the roads. There is no doubt about it, the local authorities cannot keep the roads at present. These motor cars and lorries are running full-speed along the roads, and they cut them up. The canals would relieve the roads a great deal if they were kept up properly and given a fair chance. But the canals are not kept up properly. Many of these canals are choked with weeds, and there is scarcely any traffic on them. These canals would, if properly maintained, carry a great deal of the traffic that is now taken along the roads in these lorries.
I wish in the first instance to say that I think the Bill, on the whole, is an admirable Bill and makes for efficiency of administration, and that it will lead to a great deal of good. I wish to emphasise, after having said that, the necessity that exists for reform on the question of roads. In the County of Limerick we have been making great efforts to improve the main arteries, and some of our roads were good roads up to quite recently. I know that within the last two or three months heavy lorries have absolutely cut up some of our roads so much that one can hardly travel over the roads at all now owing to the condition in which they are. I know that the problem confronting the Government is a large one. I do not think that any amount of expenditure short of reconstructing the roads would enable the average road in the country to bear the heavy traffic of these four or five ton lorries. I think something will have to be done to get the capital sum necessary to make trunk roads of such a character that will carry this traffic of four or five-ton lorries. Meanwhile, I think the Government should consider the question of preventing the use of roads by these heavy lorries, and so keep off the roads a class of traffic for which they were never intended. That is altogether apart from the aspect of the inability of the farmer to pay for the upkeep of these roads, and the inability of the roads to carry the traffic which is undoubted. The ordinary road work cannot be continued on the roads if this heavy traffic is allowed to go on. I would ask the Minister to consider the question of diverting this heavy traffic from the ordinary roads of the country.
One has naturally to sympathise with the views expressed by the Senators who have spoken, while at the same time remembering the important fact that almost all those who have spoken helped to aggravate the problem of the roads by adding materially to the cost, which the amendment they carried intensifies. This amendment makes the cost of material very much greater in certain respects than heretofore. That certainly is not a useful contribution towards solving this burning question of the roads. One can easily see that this is a big national question which will have to be dealt with by the Government, and not by any county council. So far there has been no constructive proposal put forward for dealing with the roads. I believe a Roads Advisory Committee is sitting. It may be able to make recommendations that will solve this question, if the roads are not to become altogether impassable.
The Bill is in some respects a better one leaving the Seanad than when it came here. At least in one respect it has been made a little ridiculous by the introduction of a section which should never have gone into it, imposing the oath test for future clerks who enter the service of the local bodies. It would certainly have been better without that. There is another blot, a most important one, in the Bill, and that is giving the Minister power to close down the popularly elected assemblies after an investigation set up by himself, and of which he is to be the sole judge and arbitrator, and as a consequence the dignity and responsibilities of these assemblies are very much taken from. Any assembly, whether great or small, that knows that the sword of the Destroying Angel is constantly hanging over it must lose in dignity and self-respect. In respect of local authorities generally the Minister is made a sort of national chief to go round and threaten to close down local authorities after very little investigation, and for that reason one can hardly hope to see the new councils of the future being the brilliant success that one would expect them to be, if they had a little more authority or had not the sword hanging over their heads. In other respects the Bill has been improved. I should have wished that the amendment dealing with competitive examinations had been accepted pending the introduction of the promised Bill. It was the first serious attempt to mitigate the awful abuse of canvassing in respect of the filling of clerical appointments. I hope that the promise of the Minister to introduce a comprehensive Bill dealing with appointments of all kinds by local authorities will not be unduly delayed, for the new appointments or re-appointments will have to take place after the next election through the dissolution of the rural district councils, and the setting up of the boards of health, and we would require to have in the immediate future the principle of competitive examinations ruling. For that reason I hope the Minister will be able to realise his promise without undue delay, and that within the next few months he will introduce a Bill which will remedy the abuse which is notorious and which, I think, is inherently associated with appointments made by local authorities, and indeed by most assemblies whether they are elective or not.
In reply to Senator O'Farrell's last point, I am very anxious, as I have already said, that effect should be given to the spirit of his amendment, but in the meantime there is no great urgency about the matter, because there are Selection Boards set up dealing with practically every vacancy that occurs under local authorities throughout the country. I do not anticipate that under the Bill there will be a great many new appointments. All the present officers of rural district councils automatically become officers of the county council, and naturally any new appointments will have to be made from the existing staffs. I was very favourably impressed by his amendment at the time it was introduced, but I think it is quite obvious that it would be a very risky matter to insert an amendment at such a late stage without giving the two Houses full opportunity of discussing and debating it. Undoubtedly if we tried to put it into operation at present it would give rise to serious anomalies, and for that reason I think the Seanad was wise not to insert the amendment as it stood, and that Senator O'Farrell was wise in withdrawing it and allowing the matter to be dealt with in the orthodox way.
There has been a good deal of discussion about road policy. I do not think that Senator Sir John Keane was quite fair in saying that my Department has no policy with regard to roads. In the present Bill we have taken a very considerable step. We have practically nationalised the main roads by giving the Central Government power to state what roads will be main roads, and also by giving the Minister power to maintain any road in the country if he so desires through the Central Government. It leaves me in the position at present that if I had financial support I could have any road in the country maintained by contract, and I could have any of these big firms that are maintaining roads, according to the latest standards of efficiency in England, to come over here and construct between Cork and Dublin, a trunk road of concrete or asphalt, or any of the modern substances. I have that power under the Bill. The only difficulty is with regard to finance. I do not think any proposal has been put forward in this House which could materially assist me in solving that financial difficulty. The financing of our road policy is, to a great extent, bound up with the duty on motor vehicles or motor fuel, and that whole question is being investigated by the Roads Advisory Committee. I have no doubt that as a result of their investigations we will hit on some new principle for financing the roads, and excluding lorries over a certain weight from running on the roads.
There is no problem I am more interested in than the road problem. I believe at an early date we will be able to find some solution. Another point to be considered is that experts are by no means agreed at present as to what is the best kind of road for a trunk road in this country. Some say tar macadam, others a bituminous road, consisting of this new bitumin, and more concrete roads. Before finally deciding on that I thought it well to carry out some experiments, and accordingly I am experimenting with four or five different kinds of roads in County Dublin. After we have had some experience of seeing how these roads stand up to modern traffic, we will be in a better position to decide on a national policy with regard to trunk roads. It is a matter with regard to which we should go slow, and not rush it, for it might be a costly matter for the country, and we do not want to take any steps that we will be sorry for later on.
Before the Bill passes through its final stage, there is a verbal amendment to one section which would seem to be necessary. It is in Section 33 in the last print of the Bill. In sub-section (1) of that, the Minister is given power to make regulations prescribing "the standard and quality" of the materials which may be used on the roads. If you go to sub-section (4), which defines the acts the Minister may not do, you will find there that he shall not use in the maintenance of a road any material of "a nature or quality," etc. That is the sub-section that needs amendment. I beg to move that the word "nature" be deleted and the word "standard" be substituted therefor. The sub-section would then read "any material of a standard or quality," &c.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—put and agreed to.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Before the Bill leaves the Seanad, perhaps I might be permitted to say that I think whoever is responsible for the draftsmanship of this Bill deserves the very highest credit for the way in which he accomplished his work.