Before the Minister speaks, I would like to know if he could give us some idea as to the financial effects of this Bill and as to the economies, if any, which may be secured under it. I would like, too, if we could have an assurance from the Government that, in introducing measures of this kind, they would issue in a White Paper or in some other document particulars showing the financial effects which such measures are likely to bring about.
POLICE FORCES AMALGAMATION BILL, 1925—SECOND STAGE.
Motion made and question proposed: "That this Bill be now read a second time."
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
The Minister cannot do that very well before he speaks.
I understand that this Bill is for the purpose of amalgamating the Civic Guard and the Dublin Metropolitan Police. No doubt, in the interests of efficiency and possibly of economy, a measure of this sort may be commended. I do not propose to go into that question now. At the same time may I, for sentimental reasons, express the regret that I feel personally at the passing of the Dublin Metropolitan Police. The Dublin Metropolitan Police, whatever their successors may be, were physically the finest body of police in the world. As we all know, they were famous for generations in tug-of-war contests. They defeated almost every team that came before them. Many of us are under personal obligations to the old Dublin Metropolitan Police. They were a very kindly and a very humane body of men. I do not know whether their successors will follow them in these respects or not, but I think I may say that the old Dublin Metropolitan Police were really a very popular body. About the first tune that I ever remember hearing was that with the refrain, "Are you there Moriarty?" My old nurse used to sing that for my edification. The Dublin Metropolitan Police came down to us through many years and had a very interesting history. I think it is only right that someone should say a word to express regret at the passing of this old force. It was really a national institution. It was also an admirable institution, and a very kindly and humane one, too. I can only hope that the traditions of humanity and kindliness which were synonymous with the name of the old Dublin Metropolitan Police will be carried on by the new Force, and that if they cannot be improved upon they will at least be perpetuated by their successors.
At the outset I desire to say that, personally, I am not particular about the passing of the D.M.P. Some people probably will miss them, notably those who used to read "Studies in Blue" yarns about Mrs. Casey and things of that kind. The amalgamation of the two forces will, I think, lead to greater efficiency. I desire to say, however, that in my opinion a grave injustice has been done to the citizens of Dublin under this Bill. The citizens of Dublin have had to pay, and are still paying, the enormous sum of 8d. in the £ on the poor law valuation for the upkeep of the D.M.P. It is now proposed to amalgamate the D.M.P. with the Civic Guard, so that we will have but one police force in the country. The ratepayers in no part of Ireland, except in Dublin city, have had to pay a special rate for the upkeep of the police force. Therefore, I do not think it is fair that the citizens of Dublin should continue to be saddled with this additional burden of 8d. in the £. No doubt, this special tax is to be diminished, and at the end of eight years it is to be wiped out altogether. That is the proposal under the Bill. I put it to the Minister and to the Seanad, that the ratepayers of Dublin have already paid more than their fair share of the special burden, and that they should be relieved of it at once. During the last nine or ten years they have had to shoulder very heavy burdens indeed, and hence I think that this rate of 8d. in the £ for the police force should be abolished at once. Why, I ask, should the ratepayers of the City of Dublin be saddled with this burden when the ratepayers in no other part of the Saorstát are called upon to pay such a tax? In Cork, Limerick, Waterford, or in any of the other Irish cities, or, indeed, in no part of the Saorstát, except in Dublin, have the people to pay a special tax for the upkeep of the police force. The entire cost of the police force all over the country is defrayed out of the National Exchequer. That, I suggest, is most unfair to the citizens of Dublin, who have to contribute their quota to keep up a police force in every part of the Saorstát, and, in addition, are called upon to pay the special rate of 8d. in the £ for the upkeep of the D.M.P. I do not think that you would find in any other city in the world a better spirit of citizenship than here in this City. That spirit of citizenship is reflected in the prompt way in which the rates of the city are paid. If a person has an enthusiasm about anything it is usually manifested in £ s. d., and on that score the citizens of Dublin have a splendid record. The payment of the rates during the whole period of the troubles that we had here was really remarkable. The payment represented 98 per cent. of the entire collection, and I think that can be claimed as a wonderful record. Therefore I do not think that this imposition on the citizens of Dublin of a special rate of 8d. in the £ for the upkeep of the police in the city should be continued, and I think that the Minister should have this burden at once removed from the shoulders of the citizens.
I fully agree with the remarks made by the last Senator. One of the arguments used in days gone by against the imposition of this special rate of 8d. in the £ for the upkeep of the police in the city was that the Corporation of Dublin had nothing to do with the government or with the control of the police force in the city. The Corporation was not in the same position as Corporations in Manchester and other English cities where the city police forces are under the control of these bodies. The police in this city were a Government institution. I agree with Senator Farren that the citizens of Dublin should not be treated in a different manner to the citizens of Cork or Limerick, who have not to pay a special rate of this kind, and hence I think the citizens of Dublin should be relieved of this special charge of 8d. in the £ for the police.
Before the Minister speaks I would like to ask a question with regard to the third schedule. I wonder would the Minister indicate how the numbers of the Force to-day compare with the previous strength of the Force and also what the present strength of the Dublin Metropolitan Police Force is compared with its strength before the Treaty. We are all anxious to reduce this Force to the minimum which public safety and public order will admit. But it is a notorious fact that hundreds of petty burglaries have been going on on the outskirts of the city for months past and so far as one can see not one in a hundred has been detected. In the district in which I live, I heard of a couple of score of burglaries and robberies which were committed night after night in houses within a short distance of each other, and I never heard of a conviction taking place. The policeman is as rare in the district apparently as the white blackbird. A district itself may be quite law-abiding but that does not follow that it will not have nocturnal visitors of a very different character. A couple of months ago a gentleman coming home about one in the morning, whether from a dance in the Kildare Street Club or from an election meeting—I know not—lectured the whole avenue for at least an hour. He would have proved a splendid speaker, especially at those interrupted meetings of which we read so much nowadays. He spoke for fully an hour for two nights in succession, and very much to the discomfort and disedification of the inhabitants; he spoke quite effectively, but not one of the familiar slow and heavy-footed night steps that we associate with policemen was heard. It is an old tradition of the police that they generally turn up when the trouble is over. In these instances they did not turn up at all, and I was in great trepidation, because the gentleman announced his intention of repeating the performance every night until the Government was out of office. He evidently changed his mind.
I was speaking to a station sergeant of the D.M.P. some time ago about the general condition of the Force. He complained that the quality of the new recruits was not at all up to the mark, that they fell very much below the original standard, and that it was difficult to find men of the old type such as was found in the old D.M.P. Amalgamation may make for economy. I do not know whether the physical standard will be altered. I take it if it were it would mean a saving in boot leather. One result of the amalgamation should be economy. Whether it is to be economy at the expense of efficiency or not is a matter that vitally concerns the people of Dublin, because I think the policemen in Dublin want to be of a particular type owing to the particular nature of the duties they are required to perform, such as regulating the traffic, and night duties amongst the people, who are knocking about at all hours. There is genuine complaint as to the patrolling of the outskirts of the city in the early hours of the morning, when footpads and various types of individuals of that kind have a free field to carry on their depredations.
The matter that was raised first on this Bill was its financial reactions, whether it will involve an economy, or the reverse of economy. The Bill will have little, if any, financial reactions, and it is in no sense an economic measure. The object aimed at is improved efficiency in administration. The feeling is that to cope properly with crime you need a single system of police intelligence for the entire area of jurisdiction of the State. We have found that a system of two distinct police forces with distinct areas of jurisdiction involves an amount of wasteful routine and is a factor in favour of the lawbreaker and the criminal.
You have, in those days of Ford cars, a criminal dropping down from Dublin to a rural area and committing his crime there and coming back again that evening to a different police area and police jurisdiction, and all the time the two jurisdictions were a steady factor in favour of the criminal. It is better to have the entire area of the State in one police jurisdiction, and that is the main object of this Bill. Under the Bill the Metropolitan Police become simply the metropolitan division of the amalgamated force. The personnel remains the same, and the Bill gives to every member at present serving in the Dublin Metropolitan Police a security of tenure in the metropolitan area. So for a considerable time you will have within this Gárda Síochána an anomaly of one self-contained division—one division the members of which, or mostly the members of which, will have fixed tenure in their area. That will, of course, be a disappearing anomaly because recruiting in future will be simply to a single force, and recruits can be sent anywhere throughout the area that the Force serves. But the present Metropolitan Police are given by the Bill a tenure and security in the metropolitan area.
It is recognised that a special training would be needed for policemen serving in the metropolitan area, and that will be attended to in the future. Men who are intended to serve in the metropolitan division will be trained to that end, but it is better to have the one force.
There is just one consequence of this Bill which I would like to advert to. We had hitherto a detective branch attached to the Metropolitan Police. That branch was confined in its functions to the metropolitan area. After this Bill becomes law the detective branch of the Metropolitan Police will become the detective branch of the Gárda Síochána. It is proposed to increase its strength to two hundred and to enable it to operate throughout the entire country. That is something that is needed and something that is welcomed by every responsible person living in rural areas. On the one hand I have a very definite objection to altering the position of the Gárda Síochána as an unarmed force. I think the ordinary policeman through the country should be able to perform his functions without the use of arms, but equally there are scattered through the country people who resort to arms in the commission of crime, and these can only be met and beaten by persons similarly armed. We will confront people of that type with what I believe will prove a sufficient number of armed detectives. If the number is insufficient the number will be increased, but I think it is better to try that plan rather than simply resort to the idea of a complete arming of your police force. A certain number of armed detectives in every division of the Gárda Síochána will, I hope, give the desired result.
In reference to the eightpenny rate, I did not, of course, expect that the proposal in the Bill would pass without comment or without criticism, but I put it to Senators that it is a reasonable proposal. The Exchequer must get some little time to find exactly how it stands, and to take its bearings before taking over a burden which amounts in the year to £52,000. A graded reduction over a period of eight years is not a hardship, the more so when you remember that the Bill involves no real change for the Dublin citizen. He is getting the protection of person and property which he got before and the personnel of the Force remains the same as before, the existing members of the Metropolitan Police having tenure in the area, and so on. There is no real change and the relief, if gradual, will be considerable in the total. At the end of eight years the National Exchequer will have taken over from the ratepayers this burden of £52,000.
There is just one aspect of the thing which I might touch on. The Metropolitan area has 18 per cent. of the police of the country, and it contains about 13 per cent. of the population and about 15 per cent. of the valuation. It has 18 per cent. of the police personnel and there are those who would argue that even with the unified force a case could be made for some special contributions from the metropolitan area in aid of the police force. However, it is not proposed to perpetuate or stereotype any such contribution, and at the end of eight years, on this penny per annum reduction, the contribution will have ceased. On the question of strengths, we took over in 1922 a force of 1,124. Under Article X. of the Treaty 558 have retired, so that the sentiment we might feel about the passing of the Dublin Metropolitan Police we should have spread over the last three years, because they were, in fact, passing all the time, and there are left only about 400 of the 1,124 which were transferred. The remainder went under an Article of the Treaty which was designed to meet the case of men who had rendered themselves so obnoxious to the new regime that the continuation of their services would not be desirable, or alternatively, to whom the new regime would be so obnoxious that they would be unwilling to serve it. Five hundred and fifty-eight members of the Dublin Metropolitan Police went under that Article. It was simply the lure of the pension and there was no way out of it. Once the men expressed their desire to go and stated that they were unwilling to remain on owing to the change of Government, then there was no legal means of defeating that desire, but I think it was a result of that particular Article of the Treaty which was never contemplated by either set of signatories. It was a result that was regretted, and the Dublin Metropolitan Police as we knew them have been steadily passing out. Of the Dublin Metropolitan force as it exists now, roughly the proportions would be seven to four—there are about 700 new men and 400 of the men who were transferred in 1922.
This fusion at the moment and for some considerable time to come is really little more than a fusion of headquarters. It will scarcely affect the actual serving member of the Metropolitan Police. His duties and the area of his duties, and his conditions of service, remain substantially the same and little more is taking place here and now than a fusion of headquarters, which will be more convenient for efficient administration. That is the chief result, that and the extension of the strength of the detective branch, and of its operation throughout the entire area of the State. I build a certain amount of hope on that for improved conditions in the country and for increased security of person and property, and increased respect for law, throughout the country. By May at the latest I think we should have functioning throughout the State an efficient detective branch of the Gárda Síochána. The members of that branch will be very carefully selected. I recognise it is a big responsibility to put arms into the hands of men who will wear no uniform and, outwardly at any rate, no distinctive badge to mark them off from the ordinary civilian, and because I take that responsibility very, very seriously I can guarantee Senators that the selection of the personnel of the branch will be very, very carefully conducted, and that I will be, so far as it is humanly possible, personally satisfied of the integrity and discretion of every man who is taken on.
The Minister has not told us anything with reference to a point raised by a Senator, that is with regard to the physique of the Dublin Metropolitan Police in the future. Is it proposed to reduce it to the standard of the Civic Guard or maintain it as it is? I, think it is a matter of some importance.
I wish to ask how many of the Dublin Metropolitan Police are there now on duty in the Dublin Metropolitan area? I make out from the figures, that the Minister stated there are 554.
No; 558 retired under Article 10 of the Treaty. The present strength of the Force, as a matter of fact, is 1,220. Over 700 are new.
Are recruits?
They are not exactly recruits, but they are new in the sense that they have been taken on since the transfer of Government.
But are they on duty in the Dublin metropolitan area?
They are. On the question of the strength, I have a table showing the strengths over a period of years. I find that in 1838 the strength of the Metropolitan Police was 1,011; in 1840, 1,210; in 1883, 1,296; in 1885, 1,268; in 1901, 1,284; in 1914, 1,270; in 1922, 1,140, and the present strength is 1,220. Over the last year there were times when the strength was considerably down owing to men going out and the fact that recruits were only in training. There were times when we were carrying on with a strength that was not very much above a thousand. Of course, the burden of police duty has been steadily increasing in the city; the volume of traffic, for one thing, is very much bigger, and it was necessary to put more men on point duty, and so on. In fact, I think that four or five years ago there was not one policeman on point duty in the metropolitan area. I am aware that in certain areas out about Rathmines, and in other places, there were complaints that patrolling was somewhat thin and infrequent. It was difficult to cover the entire area at times when we were under strength, and it is only for the past two or three months that the matter of strength has been satisfactory owing to the fact that recruits are coming in. At present I think there is less complaint, and we are satisfied that with that strength of 1,220 we will be able to meet all reasonable calls. In regard to the question of physique, this Bill, at any rate, involves no change. There is no difficulty in preserving the present standard, and there is not any difficulty at all in getting recruits up to that standard.
The Minister, referring to the Detective Force that it is proposed to extend, stated that the men were to be very carefully selected, and we all agree that that is necessary. But it has come to my knowledge during the past few days that the Commissioner is refusing to accept applications except from ex-officers. He is discriminating between ex-Army men and ex-officers.
The Minister has said that the Civic Guard is to be increased by 200. Is that in addition to the 1,200 men that he will have as a force, amalgamated eventually with the Civic Guard, as far as the Dublin Metropolitan area is concerned?
The strength of the Detective Branch will be increased to 200. It is at present 60, and for the purpose of covering the entire area of the State it will be increased to 200. These men will be plain-clothes men.
Is that over and above the figures that the Minister has already given?
It will not involve any increase in the statutory strength.
Question put and agreed to.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I do not know whether the House will be prepared to take the Committee Stage of this Bill to-morrow or not. Was any contentious matter raised on it in the Dáil?
No, sir; beyond a slight discussion on the Second Reading upon the question of the eightpenny rate no matter was raised.
Committee Stage ordered for to-morrow.