Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 May 1925

Vol. 5 No. 3

LOCAL AUTHORITIES (COMBINED PURCHASING) BILL. - ORDER OF BUSINESS.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

With regard to to-morrow, we will enter six Bills for Committee Stage on the Order Paper and the Second Reading of a Bill that has just passed the Dáil—the Censorship of Films Bill; also, the adjourned Report Stage and Final Stages of the Prisons Bill will be down for to-morrow and will be on the Paper.

With regard to next week, I understand it is possible that the Shannon Electricity Bill will be passed through all its Stages by Tuesday next, and if that were so, of course, it will be possible, if it were for the convenience of the House, to meet on Wednesday next and take the Shannon Bill. It would be the only matter we would have to discuss that day. The discussion of that Bill, I presume, would last a considerable time. Some Senators might think it too soon to take up the Second Reading the very day after it left the Dáil.

Sir JOHN KEANE

Personally, I am interested in that Bill and I should require a little time to consider it. We have not seen the final draft as yet.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It comes to this, and the House should take this matter in hands, that we must imperatively demand to have a more economical distribution of our time. I think it is quite a mistake that Senators should be called from distant parts of Ireland and have only a meagre bill of fare to keep them going which can be disposed of at the end of a couple of hours. I think we should try to arrange our sittings, and should try to accumulate business so that we might sit for four days in the week—that is four days one week and four days the next week—so as to have a continuous sitting of four or eight days. The present system is not economic or efficient.

Mr. DOUGLAS

In connection with the Shannon Bill, I think the position is this:—The Fourth Stage of the Bill is down for Tuesday next. I saw the Minister last night who is in charge of the Bill, and he said he was anxious that the Seanad should have as much time as possible to consider that Bill. He said he does not want delay if he can avoid it, and he told me he hoped the Dáil would agree almost immediately to take the Fifth Stage, so that we could have the Second Reading Stage, and could have a long period between the Second Reading and the Committee Stage if the Seanad so desired. I am quite certain that all he wants is to provide that we should have a reasonably long time to discuss the Bill from the time it leaves the Dáil. If we find difficulty in taking the Stages one after the other or taking the Second Reading and then the Committee Stage, I do not think that that would make any difference to the Minister. What he is anxious about is that we should not afterwards complain and say we did not get the Bill in time. I am only speaking now as the result of a conversation I had with him casually last night.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

If the Bill gets through the Dáil on Tuesday, I could not ask this House to go into Committee on that Bill on Wednesday and Thursday. I am sure Senators would not do so. It seems to me there is nothing to be gained by convening the House simply to discussing the Second Reading on Wednesday, when we have no other business for that day. I think it is better to put it off until we have an interval to consider the Bill, and then to take the Committee Stage immediately after the Second Reading.

Colonel MOORE

To take so big a scheme as that in one day from the Second Reading?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Perhaps the Senator did not follow me. If we meet next week to consider the Second Reading on Wednesday, I could not possibly ask the Seanad to go on with the Committee Stage of the Bill until a very reasonable interval had elapsed.

Therefore, Senators would be called up here next week and would be finished with their work in one day. I think it is better, therefore, that the Second Reading of the Shannon Bill should not be taken until the week after next. By that time it will be in the hands of Senators for at least a week and they would be prepared to go into the Committee Stage on the next day after they take the Second Reading.

Colonel MOORE

The next day after the Second Reading?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I am reminded that the week after next will be Whit Week and that if we adjourn until Wednesday we will have an accumulation of work for the month of June and we will have to gallop through everything.

Mr. KENNY

When will amendments have to be in?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

If the Bill passes the House on Tuesday it ought to be in the hands of Senators by Wednesday. That will give a week.

Mr. KENNY

When will they have to be handed in?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

The sooner the better. Certainly before the Tuesday of the following week.

Mr. BENNETT

This is a very important Bill. I think it would be as well to get the Second Reading when we would have the full statement of the Minister and, fortified by that, we could prepare our amendments and hand them in. I think there ought to be a week before the Second Reading and the Committee Stage.

Mr. COUNIHAN

I thoroughly agree that the Committee Stage should not be taken immediately after the Second Reading. We should have more time to form our minds upon amendments to the Bill and such amendments as we consider would improve a Bill like the Shannon Bill. I think it would be better to take the Second Reading next Wednesday and the Committee Stage on Wednesday week.

Sir JOHN KEANE

I think the essence of the Bill will be dealt with on Second Reading. I think there will be a vast amount of work involved in this. We are going to deal with the general principles of the Bill on Second Reading.

Mr. BENNETT

I would give way on the date of the Second Reading, but my point is that whenever we have the Second Reading, this is a Bill of such vast importance that we ought not to have the Committee Stage the next day.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I quite appreciate the significance of that, Senator, but you see the difficulty that then arises if we accept Senator Sir John Keane's view. That is, that it would not be prudent or fair to the Seanad to ask them to take the Second Reading on Wednesday next, assuming that it is only printed on Tuesday night, because it will not pass through the Dáil before Tuesday next. Then, if it is an unreasonable thing to ask the Seanad to meet to discuss the Second Reading the next day, there is nothing for it but to see what we can do the week after.

Mr. BENNETT

Except a later day next week—Friday, possibly. It is of such importance that we would not refuse to come up for one day.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

A great difficulty about that—of course it does not inconvenience me in the least—is the inconvenience of summoning Senators to meet so often and only having one day's work for them to discharge.

Colonel MOORE

Senator Brown has pointed out, quite irrespective of this Bill, the great disadvantage of ordinary business coming up on Committee Stage within a day or two of the Second Reading. Here is a Bill of the vastest importance, the most important Bill that is ever likely to come before us.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I recognise all this, but if we act on that principle we will find ourselves very much waterlogged at the end of June.

Colonel MOORE

It cannot be helped.

LADY DESART

Are we obliged to stop at the end of June?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I understand that the intention of the Government is—I do not know whether they have altered it or not, but it was so expressed—to conclude their business by the 26th June.

LADY DESART

But surely they must give us time to discuss their own Bills?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

We have said that very often, but the immediate question is, what shall we do about next week? If we are to meet, the only business that we have that will detain us for any time will be the Second Reading of the Shannon Bill. Is it the desire of the House generally that that Second Reading should be taken next week, and, if so, on what day?

Mr. GUINNESS

If you take it on Thursday, Senators would have two days to examine it.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It would be preferable on Wednesday, but again there is the difficulty that you would inconvenience Senators for that one day only, and you would be bringing them back again the following week.

Mr. BARRINGTON

There is no absolute certainty that the Bill will get through the Dáil on Tuesday.

Mr. DOUGLAS

I think that the matter should be left to you, sir, because by Saturday you will be aware of the Government action, and you will know whether it will be ready for next week or not. If it is, the House could be called for Thursday. The reports of the two Committees that are sitting could then be taken as well. I do not see how you can reconcile the two views, your view that we should wait until a great deal of business comes together, and the other view, that in spite of the inconvenience, it is better to have a certain interval between the Second Reading and the Committee Stages. Either one or the other has to prevail. I suggest that the Second Reading be taken on Thursday next, not on Wednesday, if on Saturday you are reasonably satisfied that it can come before us. If you have any doubt on the matter, I suggest it should be taken on the following Wednesday.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Then the suggestion made—I think it is the most feasible one that has been yet put forward—is that if by Saturday next I have any reasonable belief that the Bill will emerge from the Dáil on Tuesday, I should convene the Seanad for Thursday next for the purpose of the Second Stage of the Shannon Bill. If, on the other hand, I come to the conclusion that it is not certain—because, of course, I cannot summon the Seanad unless there is some certainty that the Bill will be out of the Dáil—I shall not convene the House until next Wednesday week.

Mr. KENNY

If we have not copies of the Bill as it is passed by the Dáil, in what position will we be?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

It has been printed up to its present Stage, and any Senator who wants to know its contents, may fairly assume that it will come up here in the condition in which he finds it to-day. Any Senator can get a copy to-day if he asks for it, and I venture to say that it is in the same condition now as it will be when it leaves the Dáil. It is the intention of the Government to fix specially the Report Stage for Tuesday, but the Bill as it passed Committee is now in print, and I predict, with a certain amount of confidence, that the Bill, as it stands at present, will be very little altered after Tuesday next.