For the convenience of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, who will be compelled to attend the Dáil for the purpose of the Estimates of his own Department, I take it the Seanad will permit him to reply to the motion which stands in the name of Senator Sir John Keane.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACCOUNT FORMS.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Before the last Recess Senator Sir John Keane moved a resolution which amounted to a rather serious reflection on the administration of my Department. The resolution implied that a certain Order which was made by my Department, and which I was under a statutory obligation to lay on the Table of the Seanad, and of the Dáil, was subsequently amended, and I omitted to lay the amended form on the Table of the Seanad and the Dáil. The Order in question was the County Boards of Health Accounts Order. It was an Order that was issued or made at a time when considerable changes were being made in the poor law, and when various institutions were being set up in the country to take the place of the old workhouses. The Order was accordingly a general Order intended to be applicable to various institutions of different capacity in the country. A certain firm or firms are alleged to have published certain account books for local bodies which are not in all respects in agreement with the forms laid down in this Order. Now, it is no function of my Department, and it is not its responsibility to insist on any particular kind of forms being submitted by any commercial firm. These firms prepare these forms on their own responsibility and at their own risk.
If a local authority, for whom those forms are prepared, does not wish to accept them, they are at liberty to do so if the forms are not in agreement with the form laid down in the Order. The Order itself does not insist on a slavish following in every detail of the form that is attached to the Order. It is an Order which lays down general lines which are to be followed in the accounts of local authorities. Article 9 of the Order lays down that the receipts and payments of the Board of Health shall be brought to account, through the general receipt and expenditure books under heads of accounts classified to correspond with those shown on the abstract of accounts, and shall be carried to a ledger. The form of ledger is not prescribed. It has always been the practice to allow a certain amount of latitude to accounting officers in the arrangement of the details required to be kept in the accounts relating to institutions so long as the prescribed heads of accounts are adhered to for the purpose of the prescribed form of abstract. Accordingly there has been no departure from the recognised procedure in this matter. There is always a certain amount of latitude allowed to the accounting officer, and that latitude is still allowed. It would be altogether without precedent, and it would be unreasonable for me to step in and interfere with the publishing firms preparing account books for public bodies, merely because in some details these account books happen to differ from the form prescribed in the form laid down in the Order. That briefly is the position.
Personally, I cannot regard the explanation as being satisfactory or sound. I put down this motion to call attention to what I am quite prepared to admit is the unnecessary rigidity in the control exercised by the legislature over those forms. But I do contend that once these Orders are made, and clearly made, that they should be adhered to, and, if this elasticity is necessary, powers should be definitely sought for the variation. There is nothing whatever in the Order (and, after all, that is the document on which the whole case is to be argued) to admit of these variations. The Minister says they have, by custom, been adopted, and that there are precedents. There may be precedents for illegalities, but that would not justify them. It is distinctly stated here that "the several books of accounts and forms shall be kept and filled up, and the several duties assigned and prescribed by this Order shall be punctually discharged by the respective proper officers of the Boards of Health in the manner set forth and according to the directions given in this Order and in the schedule hereto." Now, in the schedule there are certain forms which are clearly prescribed, and there is no power given to vary. The Minister contends that the local authorities can vary these forms, and that the public bodies can vary them, and that firms can seek orders from local authorities to supply these forms to them. That may be desirable, but I submit that it is a direct infringement of the Order and the power that the Oireachtas has conferred, and that it is bringing this procedure of laying papers on the Table into disrepute, if the Executive is allowed to vary them as they see fit.
Now I come to a minor but a technical aspect of the matter. Here I say again that the Minister's case is unsound. If there is any value to be got from accounting control under local government it must be uniform control. After all, is it not common sense, if you are to get figures from each local authority which admit of comparison between the various local authorities, that you will not get and that you cannot get accurate and sound comparisons unless all these figures are prepared on the same basis? This is, however, a purely technical point in accounting, that the basis for the preparation of the figures must be uniform in order to draw sound and firm conclusions. If every local authority is allowed to vary the basis of its forms and the basis of its accounting, you never can get accurate, reliable units of comparison, as the Minister knows. We have agreed to set up accounting machinery which will furnish a reliable unit of comparison, for the purpose of control. It is through control of accounting that the power of the local elected representatives can be best exercised. That is, I think, generally admitted by all people who have studied the matter. Therefore, I do submit to the Seanad that no case has been made for a departure from the rule, either in law or in respect of efficient administration. I do not propose to force this matter to a division. I have called the attention of the Seanad to the case, and if the Seanad is willing I will not go further.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I take it the Senator begs leave of the Seanad to withdraw the motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.