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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Jun 1925

Vol. 5 No. 9

LAND BOND BILL, 1925—SECOND STAGE.

I think that this Bill requires a little discussion and a little explanation from the Minister, particularly as regards its effect on the debt owed by the 70,000 farmers who have purchased under the Act of 1923. When the 1923 Act was being passed it was understood that their liability would be for the repayment of the land bonds mentioned in that Act. It was, of course, understood then that these land bonds would be bonds that would bear the same value as any other Free State securities. It is proposed now to inflate the value of those bonds, and, in that way, increase the liability of the 70,000 farmers who purchased under the 1923 Act by at least three million pounds. Those bonds must be redeemed within eighty years. The holders will have a chance by periodical drawings of having their money paid at par at a much earlier period. The bonds, when this Bill becomes law, will be even a more gilt-edged security than the two and three-quarter per cent. Irish Land Stock under the 1903 Act, and even a more valuable security than Consols, because in neither of these cases is there any provision compelling the Government to redeem them at any period at par. It is computed that the entire purchase money under the 1923 Act will amount in bonds to about £30,000,000. In the ordinary way, if the bonds are not inflated, they will probably work out at present at a price of about 84, that is, comparing them with the price of the National Loan and making allowances for the difference in interest.

If we calculate that they will be at least as valuable as the 2¾ per cent. Irish Land Stock, their value will be 95 so that the inflation in the value of the stock will be at least eleven points. If the £30,000,000 of Land Bonds were calculated at 84, the price would be about £25,200,000, whereas at 95 the amount would be £28,500,000, representing an increase of £3,300,000 as a result of this Bill, in the value of the Land Bonds. The 1923 Act was more or less a bargain between the landlords and the tenants. The landlords did not think, in the discussions on the Bill, that they got enough while the tenants thought that they were paying enough, but I think it will be recognised that a fairly equitable arrangement was come to in the end. That was on the assumption that the bonds would bear only their normal value in the money market of the day. It was never stated while the 1923 Act was going through this House that a British guarantee would be given to increase the value of these bonds. I have no objection whatever to the landlords getting the best price they could for the Bonds they have to take for the lands, but I do hold that if there is any change to be made in the 1923 Act, either by the inflation of the bonds or in any other way, that might be said to be for the benefit of the State, that the State ought to come forward and pay the amounts that would be added on to the tenants' liability under this Bill.

The provisions of the 1923 Act provide that the annuitant purchasers will have to pay until the entire sum is redeemed. There is no limit of years as in other Acts. In other Acts a limit of years was put to the period in which the annuities are to be paid, but in the 1923 Act there is no limit. It merely says that the annuities will have to be paid until the principal is paid. It is quite evident that it will take a much longer period to pay off £28,000,000 than it would take to pay £25,000,000. I should be glad to hear the explanation of the Minister on this point, as to whether there really will be any addition to the liabilities of the tenants under this Bill, and if there is, if it is good State policy to do what is proposed under the Bill, and why it is that all this burden of £3,000,000 should be placed on 70,000 tenants and not be borne by the State?

I would like to ask what the Senator meant by the inflation of the bonds? Is the improvement of the security held to be an inflation?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I think that is what the Senator meant; in other words, that by enhancing the security it would naturally raise the value.

I have tried to study the Land Bond Bill as closely as I possibly could and I listened with the greatest care to Senator Linehan's argument. As far as I can see, the fundamental argument which he raised—and it is a reasonable argument —is that any advantage to be derived under the redemption or otherwise of these Bonds ought to be secured to the farmers. I think the suggestion that the inflation or the deflation of the security would have any effect on the amount of interest the farmer would have to pay, on the period during which the redemption would accrue, is untenable. The question whether the security is worth a certain amount is due purely to external matters—confidence of people in the security offered and various other considerations. The Saorstát according to the opinion of outsiders is being run in an honourable and straightforward way and with due regard to the interests of everybody and with due regard to the integrity and security of the country as a whole. A bargain was made. It is the essence of a bargain that it should be as equitable as possible. Yet no bargain leaves all people equally satisfied. I take it that neither the landlords nor tenants were perfectly satisfied under the arrangement of the 1923 Act.

The suggestion that because an external authority wishes of its own free will and initiative to keep the character of a certain security at a certain level, it is injurious to the shareholders of the company, is to me a suggestion which is not tenable. To my mind the higher the security is in the market the more likely a shareholder in the security is to get a good return, so to speak, for his capital. In this case the security is the land of Ireland; the security is the people of Ireland and the security is the power and determination of the State to act equitably. This Land Bond Bill, to my mind, makes an additional security but that in no way affects the interests of the tenants of Ireland. It in no way prejudicially affects the interests of the tenants, but in some measure it affects the interests of the people as a whole. I think that it will not affect in a larger way the interests of the people here because I take it that they have been properly treated. They feel that the security they have got is a good one, and that they will not be treated inequitably. More and more will they decide to stay in this country and to leave their money in this country when they feel that their interests will be honourably and faithfully protected. For that reason I welcome cordially this Land Bond Bill. I welcome the greater value of the security which I feel confident after a good deal of thought will in no way prejudice us and will not, in any way, affect the interests of the tenants who bought under the 1923 Act.

When I realise the seriousness of the proposal that has been made by Senator Linehan, I am prepared to say that it is not at all extravagant to denounce it as a monstrous one. The idea is to debase security in order that the tenants who are past masters in causing insecurity should take advantage of this fall in credit. Now, merely because the British Treasury, the greatest pillar of security in the world, is backing the Irish Land Bonds, we are asked to believe that this is prejudicing the tenants. What is to prevent the tenant making the security bad? We had instances of that before. There are certain methods by which local people can make any security unsafe and local people can make any farm unsaleable. I think these proposals that we have listened to are nothing less than discreditable to this House.

I cannot follow Senator Linehan's idea that by depreciating the value of the Land Bonds or allowing the value of the Land Bonds to be depreciated that the tenant will be in a better position than he otherwise would be. Suppose the Land Bonds are depreciated in price and that instead of being worth £90 they are worth only £50, this, in my opinion, will only enable the speculators from across the Channel or any one else to come in and buy them up at £50. The tenants will have to go on paying their annuities and paying them as they are paying them now. I do not believe that Senator Linehan can have given very much thought to this matter.

Under the Act of 1923 the tenants purchased their lands at 16½ years' purchase. Under the old Act of 1903, the British Act, they purchased their land at something like 24 years' purchase. The result is that the tenants buying to-day are getting their lands extremely cheap, compared with the men who bought in 1904 and 1905. I was fortunate enough to have a very small property—I do not want to be personal—a place out near Bray. It was in a very good position for building land, and it was convenient to the town of Bray. The net rent, fee-simple title, was £120. Under the Act of 1923 I got for that £90 in bonds. If these bonds do appreciate for the reason that they have very substantial security behind them, I think I have a right to get any advantage that may arise from that. My income was cut down £30 on a small property.

I think, through the fact that the British Government is backing those bonds, I should have a right to get something for the very serious loss I suffered. The tenant, so far as I can see, will not lose anything. I do not want in any way to be against the tenant farmers, for I realise that they are the main support of this country. I would like to see them all well-off and independent men. I would like to see the tenant farmers of the country in the very best position, but I do not think they can profit, by depreciating the Land Bonds. They could not profit. If they pay 16½ years' purchase, no matter what price the bonds are in the market, that would not affect the annuity they have to pay. The annuity they have to pay to the Land Commission would be the same figure as it is now. It would not matter whether the bonds were 84 or 54. It would make no difference, as far as I know, in the moneys these farmers would have to pay. If Senator Linehan can explain to me that the tenant farmers can get relief by depreciating the value of the bonds in the public market, I would consider the matter. Under the present circumstances, I do not think they would gain a penny. Therefore, I will vote for the Bill.

It is quite plain that, whether the bonds go up or down the ordinary tenant purchaser will not get any relief at all in his annuities. The rich farmer, who has plenty of money in the bank, will, if the bonds get depreciated, be in a position to buy them in to redeem the stock at a depreciated figure, and save himself the difference. I do not think that this is a matter that affects the bulk of the tenant purchasers in Ireland at all. I do not think we should entertain it for a moment.

As far as I can understand the proposal of Senator Linehan is this: If the Land Bonds stand in the market at 84, and if the Treasury redeem them at 84, that is, if they are able by the Sinking Fund to buy up all the bonds in the market at 84, the bulk of the tenants at the redemption period would be credited with £100 for the £84 that the Treasury had paid in the purchase of the bonds, and that therefore the redemption period would not have to run as long as it would if the bonds had all to be bought up at £100. To illustrate this let us go back to another Act. Under the Ashbourne Act the British Treasury applied the Sinking Fund to buy up their own bonds. These bonds were issued at £100. They purchased them at an average price of between £50 and £60. The question arises: do the tenants get the benefit of this £40 or £50, the difference in the issue price of the bonds and the price at which they stood in the market when they were purchased? Senator Linehan's point is twofold, first of all—if the Treasury buy in the market at 84 will the tenants or the Treasury get the benefit of it?— Senator Linehan appears to think that the tenants would get an advantage, and that if that were the case there would be something to be said why additional security should not be given. That would bolster up the bonds to £100, when that was not part of the bargain at the time it was made.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

How can the tenants' liability be any greater or less by any reference to the prices at which the bonds stood in the market?

I will endeavour to illustrate it. If the tenants' agreement was for £100, and there was £2 a year Sinking Fund, and that £2 is applied every year to buying one-fiftieth of the bonds, ultimately the £100 would be purchased for £84, whereas if the market fell these could be purchased for less, and the period of redemption would be shorter.

Senator Linehan seems to be under a misapprehension in regard-to the terms of the 1923 Act. That Act provides in Section 1, sub-section (3), that the bonds shall be redeemable at par, and further down, that after thirty years they shall also be redeemable at par in another way. All the bonds, as the Land Act of 1923 stands, will be redeemable at par.

Is there any period?

The period will be about 68 years in most cases.

The Government is not bound to redeem at any period.

No, but they are bound to apply the Sinking Fund for redemption. It will work out at a period of less than eighty years. If the bonds were on the market at 84, strictly speaking, neither the Treasury nor the tenants would get any advantage, because the Treasury cannot expend the ordinary money of the Exchequer on investments. We control certain funds like the Savings Bank money, teachers' pension funds, and various other funds. We can invest the money that is in those funds. There is no doubt that if we bought these Land Bonds on the market at 84, and afterwards redeemed at par under the 1923 Act, the funds would benefit, but the tenants' repayment of capital would not diminish in any way by the depreciation of the bonds. The annual payment, and the length of time of the annual payments, would be the same all the time, whether we redeemed at 100, or at 50. My answer to Senator Linehan's question is that there is no additional burden thrown on the tenant by this Bill. His liability in amount and in period stands as it was. What is gained by this Bill is that we are preventing a serious, and, I believe, an undue strain, on the credit of the State. We must borrow for various State purposes and for development. The state of our credit will regulate the amount of interest we will have to pay. The price of our securities already in existence will decide the issue price of new securities.

There is no doubt that if we have a continuing issue of Land Bonds, and that there is a big issue, the prices will sink considerably. For instance, look at the Compensation Bonds and the National Loan. The Compensation Bonds are really more valuable than the National Loan. They are a better investment at the same price. Yet, because a large issue of Compensation Bonds is taking place from day to day, and month to month, they are decidedly lower in the market than the National Loan. If we are to proceed with the issue of £30,000,000 Land Bonds, throwing them on the market from month to month, the prices would sink very low. People would have to realise for one purpose and another, as bonds would be constantly thrown on the market, and the price would, I believe, sink much lower than 84. The result would be that the national security, resting on the same security, would be dragged down from 94 to 84, or perhaps less than 84. If we proceed to borrow money for new projects we would have to issue at 84, or perhaps 80, and projects like the Shannon scheme would have an entirely new complexion thrown on them by reason of the rate of interest being increased so substantially. The tenants will lose nothing whatever by this Bill. The State, I believe, will gain very substantially by relieving itself of a burden and, as I have explained in the Dáil, everything in connection with this bargain with the British Government is open and above board. The terms of the British Act are on the face of it. There is nothing behind it. The British Government promoted their Bill because of an agreement made with the landlords.

Are we not looking a gift horse in the mouth?

I really think that the bond holders gain substantially, and the tenants and the State loses nothing.

Motion—" That the Bill be read a Second Time"—put and agreed to.
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