Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Mar 1926

Vol. 6 No. 12

STATISTICS BILL, 1925—FIFTH STAGE.

Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration and do now pass"—put.

Mr. JAMESON

I want to draw attention to the new Clause 20 and I think I will read it.

"Nothing in this Act shall be construed to require any person to give information in relation to a matter as to which his knowledge was acquired in circumstances that would entitle him to decline to give such information in a civil proceeding in a court of law on the ground of privilege or to require any bank or corporation carrying on the business of banking or any official thereof to furnish any particulars which would enable any person to identify such particulars as relating to any individual person, business or concern without the consent in writing of that person or of the proprietor of that business or concern."

This was a matter which we went into very fully in the Select Committee, and the President took the view that he thought it quite unthinkable that a government would ever attempt to do such a thing; he thought that the introduction of a clause like that was discreditable to the people concerned. We had a considerable knowledge of the people who put money into our banks. They may or may not be reasonably frightened, but we represented to him the necessity of giving some clause which would ensure them absolute certainty that the same conditions which have always been maintained between banks, their clients, and their depositors would continue when this Bill was passed. He took our view of the case finally. He practically arranged this amendment, and in the opinion of the Committee it meets the case, and there is not a vestige of doubt in the opinion of bankers that this clause makes the secrecy of the client as safe as ever it was. It also deals with the privilege of legal communications and things of that kind, with which I am not particularly concerned. The point I wish to make is to assure the Saorstát public that everything is, after this Bill is passed, as it has been in the past, and every account in the bank will be as secret as it ever was. That is one of the real essentials in the Saorstát, as we all know, for carrying on our business.

Sir THOMAS ESMONDE

I should like to express my appreciation for the manner in which the President received our representations in this important matter. We gave him the benefit of our experience and it influenced his action very satisfactorily. As far as the credit of the country is concerned, all I have to say is that the result of our proceedings and of the President's action leaves the clients of the Irish banks in as good a position as they ever were, and the immemorial confidence which has prevailed between banks and clients and which is, after all, the foundation of our system of banking, is just as safe to-day as it ever was.

Mr. O'FARRELL

This Bill leaves this House substantially amended, and, I think, in the main, the amendments are good and tend to make it a more complete Bill than it was. I do not know if Section 20 may not tend to hamper Government Departments with regard to banking statistics. It is a very widely-worded Bill which will give any amount of room for interpretation and it may be used for the purpose of not giving any statistics because it may be argued that most statistics given tend to divulge information of a private character. One must congratulate the Select Committee of bankers who dealt with the Bill in Committee on the manner in which they have been able to impose their views on the President. I do not think the most powerful body in this country could have succeeded to the same extent. We read with surprise the President's statement that rather than agree to a much milder amendment he would resign. Two days later he comes in like a cooing dove with a much stronger amendment, and he actually appeals to the Committee for acceptance of it. In those circumstances I am not surprised that the members of the Committee draw attention to their achievement because, as representing their particular interests, they have done good work. The President is morally supposed to ask the Dáil to accept this amendment and his followers in the Dáil are morally bound to support it. I only wish other interests were able to use the same persuasion and, now and again, be able to bring the President to a spirit of sweet reason. It is only an illustration of the fact that whatever you may say with regard to the counting of heads in an election it is only those who have money who control the Government of the day.

Mr. HAUGHTON

I was very much gratified to hear the few expressions that fell from the President the other day before the Committee when he endeavoured to allay the fears some people had that he wished to pry into the accounts of private concerns. He said all we want is to see what trade there is, what is the volume of that trade, and what will be useful in promoting it. When I look back on the Bill I see under Section 2 (d) amongst other things, the question of employment and unemployment. I do not wish to import into this discussion the question of arbitration in the case of disputes, but I hope that a Bill like this, inquiring into all the statistics, will lead up to that happy day when something of the kind shall be brought about to avoid the disastrous disputes we have had when hundreds of thousands of pounds have been lost.

The PRESIDENT

I want to express my satisfaction that Senator O'Farrell is so very well pleased with this section. I always like to see the Senator in good humour, as he appears to be in this afternoon. My own view is that the section does not make the Bill any different from what it was when it came here. If it were desired by an official to get information about a private account in the bank, nothing in the Bill, as it came from the Dáil, would enable him to do it, and I am further of the opinion that if Senator O'Farrell were in my place, and if he prosecuted an individual from whom he wanted to get information, his Government would not succeed.

I am also of opinion that so far as privilege is concerned it was a reasonable request to make and a reasonable concession to give to meet any fears there might have been on that point. As regards private accounts and their immunity from inspection, I do not think the section, as it stands, gives greater security. I think that the translation into the language of an Act of the security of private accounts from inspection, by reason of the fact that it has been recognised and admitted from time immemorial that that was the prescriptive right of the individual, does not, in fact, make it as strong as if it were not there at all. There need be no apprehension as to that right being evaded. That is a matter for the banks and for persons who represented to us that there were real apprehensions in that regard and, though they themselves did not think to the extent that had been expressed to them, that it was in the best interests of everybody concerned to have this proposal in the Bill. I did not appeal for its acceptance. I offered it and it was accepted. If Senator Moore thinks that that is not true perhaps he would consult members of the Committee as to whether I appealed or not for its acceptance.

Colonel MOORE

I did not question it.

The PRESIDENT

It is, at any rate, satisfactory to deal with people who can answer for those for whom they speak. That, I think, is more than Senator Moore can do. I would be pleased at any time, when Senator O'Farrell is speaking to me on behalf of those for whom he speaks, if he can tell me that he can answer for them. That would be a great satisfaction.

Question put and agreed to.