Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 2 Jul 1926

Vol. 7 No. 11

UNIVERSITY EDUCATION (AGRICULTURE AND DAIRY SCIENCE) BILL, 1926—THIRD STAGE.

Section 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

SECTION 2.

(1) The Minister for Finance shall as soon as conveniently may be after the passing of this Act demise by deed under his official seal the lands and premises described in the First Schedule to this Act with the exceptions and subject to the reservations specified in that Schedule to University College, Dublin, for the term of ninety-nine years from the appointed day subject to such nominal rent not exceeding five shillings as the said Minister shall think proper and subject to such covenants on the part of University College, Dublin, and conditions as the said Minister shall think proper and in particular subject to a covenant against assignment, subletting, or parting with the possession of the said lands and premises or any part thereof without the consent of the said Minister and such covenant or condition as the said Minister shall think proper for securing the carrying out on the demised premises of scientific experiments and tests for Departments of State by the officers of such Departments or the officers of the said College.

(2) The demise made by the Minister for Finance under and in accordance with this section shall have effect according to its tenor as fully and effectually as if the lands and premises thereby demised were vested in the said Minister, and all reservations made by such demise shall enure for the benefit of Saorstát Eireann.

(3) Every question and dispute as to the lands or premises to be comprised in or to be excepted from the demise to be made under this section shall be decided by the Minister for Finance whose decision shall be final.

Mr. BROWN

I move:—

"In Section 2, sub-section (1), to add after the sub-section a new sub-section (2) as follows:—

"(2) The demise made by the Minister for Finance under this section shall not have effect unless and until the National University of Ireland and University College, Dublin, shall have made adequate provision for the teaching to students who have not matriculated in the said University of the several subjects hitherto taught in the College of Science and for the granting to such students of diplomas in the several faculties in which the College of Science granted diplomas."

I understand that the word "diplomas" in the amendment is not quite accurate. The College of Science granted what was called "associateship." Therefore, with the leave of the Senate, I will substitute the word "associateship" for "diplomas" in the amendment. In order to explain the amendment it is necessary that I should state very shortly something of the history of the College of Science and the work which it has done. The College of Science was founded in the year 1865. Prior to that date there was in existence in the building, recently vacated on the west side of Stephen's Green, an institution which was known as the Museum of Irish Industry and the Government School of Science Applied to Mining and the Arts. That older institution which had been doing somewhat similar work came to an end in 1865, and under a Treasury minute of that year, the College of Science was established. The purposes for which the College of Science was established were these: It was intended to give instruction and to give diplomas or associateships or degrees in subjects which, at that time, were not taught in the practical way in universities in which they ought to have been taught for practical purposes. The main object of the institution of the College of Science was, however, to teach and give diplomas or associateships to a very large number of students in this country, who either had not the time to go through a university course, in addition to their professional course, or who had not the means to go to a university. It was, therefore, founded mainly for the purpose of providing the youth of this country, who could not afford either the time or the money to go to a university, with the highest possible form of technical education and to give them those associateships as a hall-mark of qualifications in their professional work.

It had three faculties—a faculty of agriculture, a faculty of applied chemistry, and a faculty of engineering, which included mechanical and electrical engineering. It had two other courses which they did not call faculties—an economic and industrial course and a course for science teachers. That is, there were three faculties and two courses, or five sets of subjects in which the students could obtain teaching and a diploma or associateship. The College of Science was successful from the very first. In the report of a Commission on science and art in Ireland, in 1869, the members of which included Professor Huxley and the late Professor Haughton, of Trinity College, it is stated: "In the Royal College of Science, Ireland possesses an institution which, in the number of its professorships and in the general course of study, is more complete as a pure school of science than anything of the kind in either England or Scotland." The average number of students in the College of Science over the sixty odd years in which it has been in existence was something about two hundred. They were nearly all non-university students. There was a practice, and there still is, or rather has been a practice for Trinity College to send a small number of students to the College of Science for a kind of post-graduate course in practical work by means of the equipment which they have not got at Trinity. I believe that the number of students in Trinity College for that purpose was never very great. It varied from ten to five or six. I think there was a similar practice in the old Royal University and in its successor, the National University, of doing the same kind of thing in a small way. It may be taken for granted that the great bulk, a hundred and sixty out of two hundred students, were non-university men, who either could not spare the time or had not got the money to go through a long university course. The College of Science was, therefore, fulfilling an absolutely essential function in this country, not fulfilled, and not capable of being fulfilled, by the universities, and it was doing it well. What does the Government propose to do with this institution under this Bill? They are perfectly frank about it. In fact, the one thing that I like about the attitude of the Government in introducing this Bill is their perfect frankness. They are going by this Bill to put an end to the College of Science and to hand over its buildings, its equipment, and its money to increase the endowment of a university which, unfortunately, as we have got to admit, is very poor.

Now, really a more shameless proceeding never was effected by an Act of Parliament. What provision do they propose to make for 150 or more non-university students who have been using this institution for their professional education? Absolutely none. Now the object of my amendment is that when this institution, with its buildings, its wonderful equipment and the money which is used to keep it going are handed over to the National University, that they should provide for those non-university students who are now cast out into the world without any means of getting what they got before, and that they should provide for them similar teaching, similar diplomas and similar hallmarks when they go out into the world as were provided for them by the College of Science. I ask the Seanad to put in the provision that the demise in the lease that is to be made under sub-section (1) of Section 1 of this Bill shall not take effect and shall not operate at all until the National University of Ireland and University College, Dublin, acting together, provide the means and make adequate provision for teaching students who have not matriculated in the university the subjects hitherto taught in the College of Science and grant them the same diplomas, associateships, or whatever you like to call them. Surely if ever there was a case in which there was justice and fair play on the side of an amendment then this is one, and I earnestly hope the Seanad will support it.

Colonel MOORE

I am afraid that in these matters there is always a certain amount of jealousy raised against the National University, and therefore I am not inclined to support this amendment in its present shape. If Senator Brown had said that the National University be instructed, say, to supply facilities for the students who previously attended the College of Science, I would be inclined to back him, but when he says that this is not to happen until such and such other things happen, I do not think the amendment is one that I would like to support. Several statements were made by the Senator which I do not think are in accordance with my views. For instance, one of his main points was that the College of Science was a separate institution and should be a separate institution because it gave certain facilities to students who were not and cannot be members of a University. The College of Science at South Kensington, which I know pretty well is connected with London Uni-University in much the same way that it is proposed to connect the present College of Science with the National University of Ireland. I see no difficulty whatever in that.

Mr. BROWN

Might I point out to the Senator that the Bill does not provide for the continued existence of the College of Science at all. It is to be completely absorbed in University College, Dublin.

Colonel MOORE

I see by the Bill that the buildings are to remain and that everything is to remain practically the same as now.

Mr. BROWN

They are to be leased for ninety-nine years at 5/- a year.

Colonel MOORE

I presume that the University authorities will continue to teach in the College of Science as heretofore. Everything, I imagine, will be the same except that instead of having two separate institutions you will have the two united under one authority. I really do not see much in the point that the Senator has made. Another point that the Senator made was that the students he refers to will not have time to attend the University. They attend the College of Science now and they will have to attend in the same way under the proposed new arrangement. As a matter of fact, I believe the course runs for a period of five years.

Mr. BROWN

For four years.

Colonel MOORE

In any event, it does not make much difference whether the course runs for four or five years. I do not see very much in this point about the time that the students will have to give in attending the courses at the University. They have to give the same time attending the courses in the College of Science. I agree that those who have passed certain examinations and who have got certain qualifications should, in the future, be given whatever facilities were afforded to them in the past.

Mr. DOWDALL

One could have a good deal of sympathy with the views expressed by Senator Brown, but this point is not quite new. I am rather surprised that no practical proposals have been initiated by any section, either in the Dáil or in the Seanad, with regard to this matter since three years ago, when the College of Science was practically wiped out. In a speech made in the Dáil by one of the Ministers, I cannot recall which, there was some such scheme forecasted some time ago as is now incorporated in this Bill. The matter was discussed sympathetically by the Senate of the University. The desire was expressed on the part of the University to continue, as far as they possibly could, the usefulness of the work hitherto done by the College of Science. The National University being a poor university, and what I might call a popular one, wishes to attract to itself all the students that it possibly can. Evidence of its usefulness to students of the class who previously went to the College of Science will probably be shown in the development of the Shannon scheme. It will be the duty of the university to educate those students and to fit them with the qualifications which they ought to have. Any fundamental mandatory powers put into this Bill as against the National University would. have the tendency to cause delay and to interrupt the usefulness of such courses of study as were given in the College of Science. If such powers were given in the Bill they would probably have the effect of compelling the university to alter its statutes. That would only delay the carrying on of the kind of work that was done by the College of Science to a later date than is forecasted in this Bill. I think it may safely be left to the educational and the university authorities concerned to provide such teaching as is necessary for these students.

If the amendment were carried I do not think it would affect University College, Cork. The authorities of University College, Cork, have forecasted the provision of certain courses for those who propose to take up creamery management. Intending students for this course have already entered on their preliminary courses of study, and perhaps if this amendment were accepted they might be delayed in following their course. The amendment, however, probably does not affect University College, Cork, but I have no doubt that University College, Dublin, has also made suitable arrangement for its students. If the amendment were accepted the efforts of the students attending University College, Dublin, for a year or more would be nullified. Nobody denies for a moment the extremely useful nature of the education that was given in the College of Science. Unfortunately, most of its students, more than two-thirds—I think I would be right in saying three-fourths of them —went abroad. I think there was only one student in the Agricultural Faculty who ever qualified for an associateship. The College of Science was established in the year 1865.

I read the report of Professor Huxley and of his fellow professors who visited the College in 1869. Since then technical schools have been established all over the country. Senator Brown gave us no idea as to how far the universities were prepared to give assistance in the training of teachers for technical schools. As regards University College, Cork, it almost strained its statutes to permit certain classes of students to take lectures at the technical schools. These lectures were recognised by the university authorities. I am sure that what was done in Cork will also be done in Dublin as the necessity arises. I ask the House not to hold up or delay this Bill or to put any restrictions on the university authorities which would tie their hands. I am perfectly certain that they are only too willing to agree to do whatever is necessary to be done for the educational advancement of the country.

Dr. GOGARTY

If one were to support Senator Brown in the case he has made there is one result that would arise which, I think, the House has not yet had brought to its notice. That is, that if there is any delay in this matter there will be no College of Science at all, because the grant in support of it will fall through and there will have to be another vote of moneys made. Senator Brown's arguments would be unanswerable if the proposal of the Government was to abolish the College of Science. That would be a distinct hardship on certain classes of students who take advantage of the college. If, as has been stated, 200 students were each year to be deprived of any education in technical science, certainly that would be a hardship. I suggest that the adoption of the Senator's amendment would result in the abolition of the College of Science, because it would prevent its merging in a more adequate body.

The College of Science has been a bone of contention for many years with the other universities. Trinity College, by the way has not as broad a curriculum as the National University, however deep, intense and excellent it may be. There are certain faculties in the National which are not in Trinity. For instance, there is architecture. When the College of Science becomes merged in the National University it will thereby broaden its curriculum. Take the case of a student doing a four years' course and already in his second year, he can easily get ad eundem credit in the National University for the time he has done without losing a term. His associateship will be lost if this amendment is carried. The only hardship as far as I can see is about the fees. If the qualifications in specified scientific pursuits, such as chemistry and agricultural science which are outside the three that Senator Brown's amendment provides for were to cost more it would be a hardship, but if they were only to cost as much as the National University students pay, instead of an associateship you will have a far better type of education and a better degree. I am not sure that very much is gained by a course of science for people who have not had the advantage of a course at the university. You usually produce a scientific pedant. The university is not an arbitrary class distinction. It is a necessary method of making the diploma useful; that is to say that a man who is to become a scientist must be an educated person, and surely a university is not an extraordinary or an unreachable career, particularly in the National University. I think that the sooner the National University, which will have to get an increased grant in the long run, is linked up the better. The College of Science by becoming merged in the National University will be greater than if it were to stay on as it is at present. This is a matter that should not be delayed. The acceptance of Senator Brown's amendment would mean delay. I believe that when the College of Science becomes a part of the National University it will mean a broadened endowment, that it will be better for the country and for all concerned.

Mr. BARRINGTON

I desire to give my strong support to Senator Brown's amendment. I should like to remove the idea given expression to by my friend Senator Colonel Moore. He said that this amendment was calculated to arouse a feeling of jealousy towards the National University. I should like to assure him that I do not believe there is the slightest shred of evidence for that idea, nor do I believe there is the slightest chance of such a feeling being aroused. As far as I am concerned I would be equally opposed to the College of Science being merged in Trinity College. The reason why I take up that attitude is because I believe that in the case of the great majority of the 200 students who attended and availed of the education given by the College of Science their ordinary business and the education they had previously received would be incompatible with a university course. I have known a great many of these young men, having met some of them in my own employment. I may say that it was a common rule that when a young man became an apprentice at Inchicore he was required to take out a course at the College of Science or at a technical institute.

The great bulk of them took the course at the College of Science. Why? Because they had neither the funds nor the time to go through a university course, two considerations which in their case were very important. A young man engaged in mechanical engineering, which calls very largely for physical exercise as well as mental training, has not the time to pursue the course of study that it would be necessary for him to pursue if he were following a university course, and going in for a university diploma. For instance, he does not want to spend his time learning languages, however desirable that may be. Senator Gogarty of course has told us that the standard of education should be raised and enlarged. The training that such a young man got in the College of Science, because of his previous experience as well as the career he aimed to follow in the future, suited him exactly. If he were to go through a university course it would mean a waste of time and money for him. The College of Science was established by the British Government and the present Government has inherited it. They got an immense amount of equipment with the college as well as the funds that were provided by the British Government. To take these funds away from the class of young man that I have been speaking of, and to apply them to the purpose of bolstering up the funds of the National University, which we all regret are insufficient, would, to my mind, do a serious injury not only to these young men, but to the country at large. I hope before the College of Science is transferred to the National University that the latter will have to afford— and this is all the amendment asks— the same facilities to those young men in the future which they enjoyed in the past.

Mr. O'HANLON

Senator Barrington says that the ordinary run of life of some of our young people would be incompatible with a university course. That assumes that University College, Dublin, will not make provision for non-matriculated students in certain courses in the university. I submit that that is an assumption for which there is no basis in fact. I think, and I have reason to believe, that the National University will invite the type of student who will take a course say, in science, engineering, applied chemistry and the natural sciences. I take it that the university will invite that type of student. What Senator Brown asks is, not that the National University should invite that type of student—and this is the point I object to in his amendment—but that the non-matriculated student of the National University should be eligible for a university diploma, or associateship. I think the Senator's case would be met quite properly and fully if students of that type who attended courses in science, engineering, applied chemistry and the natural sciences, on attaining a certain proficiency and on giving a certain attendance at the specified courses in the university, were then given a certificate. I think that would meet the case sufficiently well.

I think it is somewhat unfair that a scheme of this kind for which the country has been asking—the type of constructive legislation that is evidenced in this Bill, for which I might say the agricultural community in particular has been calling and asking for quite a considerable time so that the educational interests of this country might be brought into keeping with the requirements of the people in their ordinary avocations— should be held up because the university might not grant a diploma or an associateship to a student who had not even matriculated or pursued any of the courses in the university. I think the case would be met fully if the National University did undertake, or even if the Minister was in a position to say that he believed it would undertake, to provide the facilities already provided in the College of Science, to enable those students to take a course in special subjects, and afterwards to grant to them a university certificate as regards the subjects in which they had specialised. We do not want the university to cater for aspirants to the high standard degree or the low standard associateship, but we want a high standard maintained all round. We hope that the faculty of agriculture in University College, Dublin, will now get a better endowment and that it will be provided with greater facilities on merging with the College of Science, and that it will exercise a greater influence than ever; that it will raise to a higher standard than ever it alone, or the College of Science, could aspire to. We hope it will aim to keep the standard in that faculty high. We hope, too, that the faculty of agriculture in the National University will soon come to be looked upon as high as the faculty of agriculture in any university in Europe.

Mr. JAMESON

A great many of us quite agree with Senator O'Hanlon's remarks. I think, however, that in what he has said he has rather confused the point at issue. He is really an advocate in what he has said of the policy which Senator Brown's amendment aims at. Those of us who agree with Senator Brown do not wish in the slightest way to interfere with the parts of the Bill that deal with agriculture. I think it is quite wrong to mix up subjects that have nothing whatever to do with what this amendment aims at. The amendment deals with one particular class of student, who has not got either the time or the money to matriculate in the university. I think the whole Seanad will agree with the remarks made in favour of the amendment. Nothing has been said to show that the case made for it is not a perfectly just one for the Seanad to deal with. I am prepared to go a long way to support the remarks of Senator O'Hanlon, but I believe he is driving at the very same thing as Senator Brown. I think that the Seanad, before it passes this Bill, should take care to have a clause inserted making it necessary for the National University to provide all the arrangements suitable for the class of students who availed of the College of Science heretofore. That is the whole thing in a nutshell.

At present there is nothing in the Bill to that effect. It may be perfectly true that the authorities of the National University may make all those arrangements. It is one thing to have the matter unmentioned and entirely at the mercy of the authorities of that university, but it is quite another thing for the Seanad to indicate its belief that the arrangements that obtained heretofore for the 150 or 200 students who attended the College of Science and took out their degrees there, should be made available for that type of student under the proposed new scheme that we are now discussing. That is what Senator Brown's amendment aims at. The question of delay has been mentioned. I think the whole Seanad agrees that a Bill of this kind, shot at us in this way and when we may be told that if we do not pass it or interfere with it, we will be holding up the financial settlements of the country, is just one more instance to prove what I think many of us hold, that the Seanad is not being properly treated. We all want time to debate a Bill of this kind, and we should not be hurried. I think Senator Dowdall is right in what he said. If the Seanad carries the amendment, then, of course, we are going to hold up a whole lot of things which we all want to go on. I wonder if the situation could be met by leaving out the section that holds up the demise, and by passing a resolution making it compulsory on the National University to provide such arrangements as will meet the needs of students who cannot afford to matriculate or follow a university course. I think everyone agrees that there is that class of individual in the country.

I do not think we should allow a Bill of this class to pass without doing our best to see that the needs of that part of the community are as well supplied under the new arrangement as they were under the old. I am in agreement with Senator Dowdall when he says that the diplomas were used by Irishmen who went abroad afterwards. I believe, as regards our systems of university and scientific education that we should aim to give the freest and the best that can be provided so as to enable our young men to compete for situations they may offer outside of the State. We have lots of clever young people in the Free State and it ought to be our care to see that educationally they are as well equipped as the youth of any other country in the world. I think that in this case we should stand by the poor young people who in the past availed of the opportunities given by the College of Science. I believe that could be done without any of the interference which some Senators who are opposed to the amendment seem to think would take place. I think it would be wise for the Seanad to insist that a clause would be inserted in the Bill making it necessary for the National University to provide this kind of education and not to compel these young men to matriculate and go in for a full university course. I ask the Minister seriously to consider whether he could not make a regulation to meet the case of Senator Brown's amendment.

Sir NUGENT EVERARD

I have a great deal of sympathy both with those who are in favour of the amendment and those who are against it. This is not the first time that this question has been debated. I recollect that before the War some conferences were held on this very subject. As Senator Jameson has said, it was then suggested that a university course was not necessary for students who proposed to go to the College of Science, as their people could not bear the cost of sending them to the University. The matter was allowed to remain in abeyance and nothing was done. The question has now suddenly cropped up, and I imagine that the circumstances of the last few years have obliged the Government to bring it forward. I approve strongly of the idea that any young man who passes through the College of Science should have matriculated and taken a university course. Unless he has had a good general education he cannot be expected to take full advantage of the science course at the College of Science. If, amongst the farmers of Ireland, there was the same keenness for university education that there is amongst the farmers of Scotland then the idea of doing something that would release a student from the necessity of pursuing a university course would be laughed at. The whole idea of a university course is to fit a man for any walk in life. There is the desire amongst the farmers now that their sons should go through a university course. I do not know whether the Minister could see his way to agree to a provision to the effect that after a certain period these diplomas would be given without insisting on matriculation in the case of the students.

Mr. BENNETT

I regret that I shall have to oppose this amendment. The Bill makes for greater efficiency in the case of the National University of Ireland. The only reason I can see for the amendment is that its supporters fear that the National University of Ireland is not ready to provide the means of education which they believe to be essential in the interests of the community. I have not that fear, and I am perfectly satisfied that the National University without any amendment such as this will arrange for courses of instruction such as have been adumbrated by Senator Jameson and other Senators. I suggest that it would not be wise for us to hold up a scheme which makes for the greater efficiency of the National University. It would mean delay if we were to agree to this amendment and I do not think we should agree to that. For some time I was associated myself with the authorities of University College, Cork. When an appeal was made to them they agreed to make arrangements for an extensive course of extern lectures. I am sure that something of the same nature will be done by the National University.

Mr. BROWN

I may say there is a certain amount of force in what one Senator has said about absolutely holding up the demise. I would be prepared to alter the form of my amendment to something like this, instead of having an amendment to Section 2 to insert a new section as follows: "On the passing of this Act the National University of Ireland and University College, Dublin, shall proceed to make ample provision for the teaching of students," etc.,—so that the demise would not be held up. But, at the same time, we would ensure that this provision for teaching and the granting of diplomas of associateship would come as a necessary consequence to this Act.

CATHAOIRLEACH

May I suggest a simpler way of arriving at this? All that would be required would be to have included in the covenant that the National University shall provide such accommodation and conditions as were provided heretofore.

Mr. BROWN

And if it were made a condition in the Bill.

Sir NUGENT EVERARD

And without a requirement for matriculation?

CATHAOIRLEACH

"Such accommodation and conditions as were provided heretofore."

Mr. BROWN

To students who have not matriculated?

Dr. GOGARTY

Surely that becomes a matter for the domestic arrangements of the University?

CATHAOIRLEACH

That is another way of putting it, if it is to be left to them and the House wishes to see they shall do it. All I am suggesting is it will cause no delay of any kind if a condition of that kind is one of the conditions included in the demise.

MINNSTER for INDUSTRY and COMMERCE (Mr. McGilligan)

The amendment, in whatever form it is before the House, is one thing, but the assumption that underlies the whole thing is another, and it is with that assumption I would like to deal here. That the College of Science as a separate institution is no longer going to exist is absolutely determined. I do not think anybody can stop that. Payment of funds will lapse in regard to the College of Science in September, and unless these moneys are renewed the College of Science, even in the limited way it has been carrying on, will lapse. It has been carrying on for three years in a semi-dying condition, with 50 per cent. of its professorial staff vacant and with a large number of the assistants also away from their work. But because the College is no longer going to exist as a separate institution there seems to be an assumption that there were courses in the College of Science which are to be no longer available for the class of students who attended the College of Science. I do not think anybody who has taken the trouble to go through the statutes of the National University and the courses provided by University College and taken these in conjunction with the new arrangements under the Bill in regard to agriculture, can have the slightest doubt that what I have said is accurate in every respect. There is going to be no point in which provision was made for a student heretofore at the College of Science in which he will be defeated under the new arrangements.

There seems to be misapprehension here regarding that and there has been a great deal of talk upon it. Senator Jameson founded his case entirely on one phrase—the poor student who cannot attend the University. Senator Brown and Senator Barrington added to that a reference to the student who had neither the time nor money to attend a University course. The phrase crept into Senator Jameson's remarks, which I am not interpreting literally, when he referred to the student who has neither the time nor money to matriculate. Anybody who has gone for matriculation, as I did, knows that neither the time nor money spent on matriculation need cause any worry, but I am interpreting the Senator's remarks as meaning the time and money spent in obtaining a degree. That is an entire fallacy with regard to the College of Science. Actually, if you compare the courses, the graduate course is a three years' course. The course for a diploma for the associateship was a four years' course. There was a shorter course in agricultural science and rural economy set up, and no student ever availed of it in the history of the College of Science.

Mr. DOWDALL

I think one did.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

No. The Senator is alluding to the creamery management course. One student qualified in that course, and he afterwards went to South Africa. There might be a fallacy in assuming that there were as many hours work put into a University course as used to be put into the College of Science course. I came here to meet the objection that all students who are put through the mill of the College of Science courses have to attend at the laboratory, whereas the University students might be doing the dilettanti about town until three or four weeks before an examination and then pursue a period of cram under a coach to pass the examination.

I am surprised that anybody has made the statement that the courses in the College of Science were availed of by people who had not time to go to the university, seeing that if they had gone to the university they would have wiped out a year's course completely as compared with the College of Science course. A student would not have to attend in a university anything like the number of lectures he would have to attend in the College of Science in any year. In addition, there were laboratory courses insisted on in the College of Science, whereas, in the University College, they were not insisted son to the same degree, but that has been tightened up now.

The College of Science fees are at the pre-war rate, and they were not raised for the reason that it was known arrangements were likely to be made in regard to the College, and it was not thought desirable to attack the question of fees. If you compare the fees for the College of Science courses with the fees for similar courses in the University College, pre-war, the College of Science courses were much dearer, but the university course is now much dearer than that of the College of Science. In University College there has been at least 70 per cent. of an advance in college fees on the pre-war rates. It will cost a student no more to-day to take out a three years' course in the university than it cost a student of the College of Science to take out a four years' course. If you take a year off the College of Science course, and if you take the old scale of fees the University College student paid for three years, and equate that, the College of Science student had to pay only three-fourths of the amount of fees to be on an equality so far as fees are concerned. So the argument about the poor student who cannot attend the university courses goes by the board. My statements are accurate and we can prove their accuracy by taking the hours required for attendance at lectures, the subjects, the fees and comparing them with those in the National University. The College of Science fees are pre-war fees and have not been raised because it was known that new arrangements were to be made with regard to the College, and it was not thought fit to tackle the question of fees. The British Government gave notice before they left the country that it was their intention to deal with the fees question and the Minister for Finance also gave notice of that.

Mr. BROWN

It might assist the Minister if I explained, when speaking on the amendment, that there was a large number of students attending the College of Science who had not the time or the money to spend on a university course, plus the professional course.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Whatever they spent on the College of Science course I should say that less time and less money would be spent on the university course, and they will get the same courses at the university which will lead them towards a double degree if they care to add on certain subjects. With regard to the time and money, let me make this point as to the work of the College of Science: Senator Brown has quoted from the 1869 report, which was rather carefully drafted. It says that: "In the College of Science, in Ireland, I saw an institution which, in the number of its professorships and the general courses of study, is a more complete and pure school of science than anything existing in England or Scotland." In fact, I may say the British Government, before they left, gave notice that they were going to see that the restaffing was put on a better basis. They had too large a staff of professors for the work done. I am not denying the excellence or the diligence of the work done by the professors of that college, but I think when you compare the number of the staff with the number of students who attended the courses, that nobody could have stood for the existence of the system.

I remember, in the Dáil, making the statement that if you added on the 19 charwomen to the staff that the staff numbers would be equal to the number of students attending the College in any one year. They ran into 100, and if you took out the charwomen the staff numbered only 19 less than the number of students. I do not know where Senator Brown got his figures. I had the figures worked out.

Mr. BROWN

200 was the number given in the debate in the Dáil two years ago.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I took it up and I gave the numbers for a certain period of years, for some of which there were undoubtedly ex-officers and ex-soldiers who had got grants to enable them to take out courses in the College of Science, and at one time it could be said there were 100 occasional students.

Mr. BROWN

It was stated that there was an average of 200.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The word average was used, but I queried it and when I got the figures in detail I was able to prove my statement, which was that leaving out the post-war years and the ex-soldiers who were on special grants the average number of students was less than 100. I urge one thing as a proof of that, and that is the old calendar of the college which gives at the end the holders of the diploma and associateship up to date. That list includes people who have gone abroad and who have died, so it actually includes everybody who has got a diploma or an associateship. The total number of diplomas and associateships given since the foundation of the college is about 750. If we had an average of 200 students for a period of 60 years, and if we consider that those who advanced to the diploma or associateship would number at least 50 per cent. of the students who attended the college courses, there should have been more than 750. That was the total number granted by the college in that period, though there were certain people thrown in to swell the total. They used to be described as those who attended the jerry-built summer courses, courses that were given when experimental science became the rage here. People were hurried up to attend these courses when they should have been recuperating on their vacation. Teachers were put through a three or four weeks' course of experimental science sufficient to get them a year ahead of their pupils, and in three or four years they got sufficient knowledge to enable them to become experimental science lecturers or teachers. Adding these people, I cannot see where you get the average of 200 for the period.

Senator Brown has referred to the five faculties as set out in the syllabus. The fourth faculty is an economic and industrial course. The particular syllabus I have is not very up-to-date. The economic and industrial course started somewhere about the last two years of the proper existence of the college and no student ever took it. There was a shorter course for the associateship in agricultural science and rural economy, and no student ever took it. This particular examination Senator Dowdall referred to with regard to creamery management was taken by one student only, who afterwards cleared off to another country, but I believe he has returned since. There were also courses for engineering and agriculture, and what is called applied science. This Bill is backed by the Minister for Education, who has assented to the proposition that the educational facilities granted in any country will be granted here. One would not expect he would approve of a Bill which took away from one class of students the educational facilities hitherto granted to them, and he is in favour of this Bill for the reason that if you take the three big courses, engineering, agricultural and applied sciences, they are all better provided for in the new system than they were in the old. Can anyone deny that agriculture is not going to be better dealt with under the new system? I do not think there is any disagreement on that, and that in the new arrangements made in Cork and Dublin there is much better attention to be paid to students who desire to get instruction on the scientific aspects of agriculture than they received before.

The engineering student will in future be able to get a course in which he can have not merely what he used to have—electrical and mechanical engineering, but there will be electrical, mechanical and civil engineering in one faculty now, a proper university faculty, and that will be open to the student who wants to take a scientific course in engineering. I put it that chemistry and physics are much the same no matter where they are taught If anything, you are going to get a better course in chemistry and physics when you have teachers of pure science and special lecturers in applied science all grouped in the same institution, and courses scheduled out. In regard to the professors who are there, and the lectures which may be given to students, there is not the slightest doubt that anybody who looks at the new arrangement will see that as far as simple provision is concerned there is going to be much more provision than there was before for students who are going to take out courses in agricultural, engineering or applied sciences. With regard to associate students, there used to be three classes of students in the College of Science. There were associate students who were prepared for the ordinary diploma or associateship in the College of Science, and there was a shorter course leading towards the diploma associateship in agricultural science and rural economy, and there were what are known as associate students. The second class we may drop out, for though the courses were there nobody availed of the opportunities given.

Associate students had to do a four years' course, pay fees, and pass an examination every term. These were non-associate students, which means this: that a student of good repute could come into the professor's classroom, plot out his own course, go before certain professors, get entered in the roll, attend classes, and at the end of the year after passing an examination he could get from the professor or group of professors a certificate for attending those lectures, and also possibly a certificate of proficiency in regard to the lectures. These two classes will have to be catered for under the new system. There will have to be a distinction made with regard to the associateship. When I have to put to myself the problem, Are the associates going to be catered for as in the past?—I have again to make this division of classes:—First, students who five years hence would be attending at the College of Science, if it existed, would be the first class; secondly, those who have entered on courses of study ordinarily leading to a diploma of associateship now going through the University; and thirdly, people who years ago obtained a diploma of associateship on which they would build afterwards to proceed to a Fellowship in the College of Science.

These are the three classes that fall for consideration here. I will take them in their reverse order. The associateship diploma could be taken as a foundation for gaining the higher title of Fellow. That type of student will be better catered for in the University system. There is an allowance made for that in the statutes of the University. With regard to the higher degree Statute 8 says:—

"The University may grant the following higher degrees ... to students, whether matriculated students of this University, or non-matriculated students who, without having been previously admitted to the primary degree in any faculty in this University shall have carried on under conditions prescribed by regulations, independent research in the University, or a constituent college and shall have fulfilled all other prescribed conditions." Then there follow the degrees: in the faculty of science, Master of Science; agricultural science, Master of Science and Doctor of Science; in engineering, Master of Engineering, and in commerce, Master of Commerce. The original Statute A of the University dealt with the conditions as to granting degrees to students. It may be the object there that the student could previously have got the Fellowship of the College by submitting a thesis or a dissertation which would meet with the approval of the Council or for original published work, which contributed in a marked degree to the advance of science. There is sufficient room within that to have Associateship taken as a foundation for the granting for cause or merit shown of something higher which will correspond to the Fellowship of the College of Science. There will be no longer that title given to it. There will be a university degree of Master of Science or something of that sort open to students who are now associates and who need not be admitted to the primary degree of the National University before proceeding to the higher degree. And, in conversation, the President of University College, Dublin, told me that arrangements would be perfected for that purpose.

Students who, some years ago, entered for the associateship of the College of Science and have been carrying on their work for the last couple of years, more or less under the auspices of University College, Dublin, are in this position that they will proceed to either of two things— an associateship, if they want it, which up to the past year has been granted under the authority of the Department of Education, or to a degree granted by the university authorities on the results of the course and examination held there. In the transitional stage, most of those people were scholarship holders and were warned that changes would have to be made and they took their scholarships subject to those conditions. Most of those are taking courses which will lead to the old associateship or to an equivalent degree in the university. We have the third class of student who might have been five years hence attending a course leading to a diploma of associateship. That student will have to become a student of the university. I hold he ought to become a student of the university. The argument, with regard to time and money, having disappeared, I do not know what else there is to deal with. If it has not disappeared, I can argue further on that when the difficulties present themselves. If it is a fact that it is as cheap, and entails no greater call on the students' leisure than would be entailed in a university in getting a degree, then I hold that the time and money argument is gone. If the point is about matriculation, I think that should be faced quite openly. The student going on for a diploma of associateship in the College of Science had to pass a qualifying examination and that was of matriculation standard.

Mr. BROWN

Not university matriculation standard.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

It was, I say definitely, of university matriculation standard and was, I think, accepted by some of the colleges as equivalent to matriculation.

Mr. BROWN

It did not require a knowledge of any language other than English.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

That is the point regarding compulsory Irish?

Mr. BROWN

It did not require Latin, Greek, or any other language.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

There was a requirement with regard to compulsory subjects. There was English, I think there was mathematics, and there was, I am pretty certain, although I speak with more diffidence of it, the question of another language. I am pretty certain there were three compulsory subjects for the qualifying examination of the old College of Science. There was mathematics, there was English and another language. There is outside this the question of compulsory Irish, and let it be understood that the Minister for Education had, at any moment, if the College of Science were continued as a separate institution, the right to put in Irish as a compulsory subject for entrance as it is in matriculation. With the general tendency of this country, there is not the slightest doubt that if the College of Science lasted as a separate institution, Irish would have been necessary, and Irish would become a definite, essential element of the entrance examination for the College of Science. The subjects for the entrance examination, as detailed here for the associateship students entrance examination, 1924, are: (1) Irish or English, (2) Mathematics, (3) one of the following, not having been selected under (1): Irish, Greek, Latin, French or German. So that a student had to select Mathematics, English or Irish under (1), and under (3) some language. These were the arrangements as laid down.

When people talk of carrying on the College of Science under the old conditions, it ought to be remembered that those conditions were not unchangeable. They could have been changed pretty well at any moment. In the old days there was a Council and it was supposed to be on the advice of the Council that changes were made. The Council had very little to say on that. It was a question of the Department in the old days, and at present responsibility lies with the Minister for Education. With regard to the associateship, if it is thought fit by the University to allow diplomas to be granted to those people without matriculating, there is power to do that. I myself, speaking now as a member of the Senate of the National University, would urge very strongly against any such thing being done and would insist that people who previously took the course for the diploma of associate should, for the future, become University students in the ordinary way, passing the matriculation examination. But there is provision made for the other matter. Statute 3, Chap. 48 of the University speaks of academic distinctions other than degrees, and 3 (a) answers this amendment, and, in part, Senator O'Hanlon's next amendment. It sets out that diplomas may be granted in certain subjects, including applied science, education, architecture, journalism, and agriculture, to students who, although they may not have matriculated, shall have completed the course of study prescribed by the University....

So, if it seems good that students should be allowed, without matriculating, to proceed to something called a diploma, the University statutes have already made provision for diplomas being granted to non-matriculated students in the two matters that count as far as this debate is concerned— applied science and agriculture.

I was prepared to speak on the amendment as it stood and to advert to the terms, but as the terms have been changed I am not referring specially to these. What actually this amendment amounts to is, that it continues the College of Science, sort of within University College, Dublin, and it stereotypes for ever courses that happen to have been in operation at a particular date. My answer to that is that there is, definitely and clearly, provision made for any student in any of the subjects he used to take out, but it is not being made as it would be by the insertion of an amendment such as this. You are not setting up this position—that you stereotype for all time certain examinations and courses which happened to be grouped in a particular way just when this change happened.

Senator Barrington referred to Inchicore students who used to come to the College of Science. Pretty well all of them used to come before the technical schools were established on their present basis. Hardly a single Inchicore student lately has gone near the College of Science. Even in the five years preceding the war, they all went to the Bolton Street Technical Schools. Senator Brown was very frank. The dissolution of the College of Science, we were told, was undertaken in order to do good to the National University. That is undoubtedly the wrong way to look at it. I detailed the steps along which the Government proceeded to this when speaking in the Dáil two years ago. The steps were:—(1) There was and could be no case made for the continuance of the College of Science as a separate institution, as it was an unnecessary duplication and reduplication of other institutions. (2) For the better carrying on of the work which used to be done in the College of Science amalgamation with a university was essential. Co-incident with that—those two points being established—there came forward this point that there was a certain university college that was left badly off financially, and was definitely embarrassed by a debt and by the provision of buildings. It was seen that by the amalgamation of the two institutions the first two points with regard to the College of Science could be met, and the position of University College, Dublin, could be eased.

If the College of Science, as a separate institution had any case made for its continuance the position of University College, Dublin, could and would have been met by provision from the Exchequer. The building debt would have been wiped out and further funds for building would have been granted to it. The needs of University College, Dublin, are not being met to any degree by what is being done now. The President of University College, Dublin, is taking over immense liabilities with the College of Science, and the provision of money which falls with it is very small. If people sat down to work out the finances of this arrangement they would find that the loose money which really falls on account of it into the coffers of University College does not amount to £1,000 per annum. I have outlined the steps along which the decision was taken—that there was no case made and that it was not possible to make a case for the continuance of the College of Science as a separate institution; that for the better carrying out of the work which the College of Science was intended to do it was necessary that it should be amalgamated with a university; once these two things were established there followed then this other point, that there was a university college embarrassed financially and that the amalgamation of these two institutions gave you the fullest possible provision for the work ordinarily done by the College of Science—better provision than it ever had—and that it gave you economy in administration at the same time.

Mr. O'FARRELL

It seems to me that the object of this amendment is to give students who wish to receive instruction in the subjects taught in the College of Science the same facilities, without taking a full university course, that they had before the College of Science was absorbed by the National University. One of the pleas put forward—a very sound and proper one— is that there are and will be students who desire to qualify in science, and who have not the desire or the opportunity of pursuing the full university course. The Minister has made the extraordinary statement—without giving any reason for it—that a student can, in the National University, get the same scientific training that he got in the College of Science and, in addition, take on the full university course in the same time, at less expense and working fewer hours per day than he did in the College of Science for scientific training alone. That seems to me to require some explanation. It may be quite true, but it would seem to indicate that either the professors of the National University have some marvellous method of imparting knowledge in a rapid way not possessed by professors in the College of Science, or that the engineers they will turn out will be very much inferior to those turned out by the College of Science. It must mean one or other of these things. It may mean, of course, that the new students will be of a particularly brilliant type—of the type of the Minister himself—and that they will be able to absorb knowledge at a much more rapid rate than other students.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Is there not the further alternative that the College of Science used to provide too many lectures?

Mr. O'FARRELL

Perhaps the College of Science taught them too well.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The giving of too many lectures is different from teaching too well.

Mr. O'FARRELL

It is suggested that they may have given too many lectures on scientific subjects. The matter wants to be cleared up, in order that those of us who have open minds and are anxious to be properly informed may be properly informed. If a statement of that kind is made, I think it should be explained how it is possible to effect this wonderful task of which the Minister spoke. It is all very well for Senator O'Hanlon and those speaking for wealthy farmers, with money to spend on the education of their children, who can afford to spend the necessary time in pursuing a full university course, to advocate that every student should take a full course before taking a degree in science. But we must take facts as they are. There are poor students whose parents cannot afford to allow them to remain one month longer than the period necessary to enable them to qualify in engineering or any other scientific subject. In my opinion, the effect of this Bill will be to make scientific knowledge a closer borough than it has been, because it will necessitate a student taking a full university course in order to get a degree in science. The extraordinary argument has been advanced—I heard it urged last year—that because many of the students of the College of Science were compelled to emigrate in order to earn a livelihood, that was a reason why the College of Science should be abolished—that there is no justification for giving instruction in a subject which provides training for people who have to emigrate. The predecessor of the present Minister for Education said in the Dáil that he was not in the least concerned with the type of education that would be given to those people who had to fly from our shores to obtain a livelihood in other lands. But the parents of those children have some consideration for their future, and the Minister responsible ought to consider that. If you are not able to provide employment at home for the 30,000 people who leave our country every year, it is, I submit, a cruel and immoral proposition to say that you will let them go forth to the outer world absolutely bereft of the knowledge and training necessary to earn a livelihood in competition with foreigners. I hope that argument will not be put forward again.

We have compulsory Irish and we are teaching it to thousands of people who will have to go to America or the Colonies when they grow up. Still it is advocated that it should be taught. The greatest flight of all is from the Gaeltacht. The argument seems to be advanced that because these people for whom we cannot find employment at home have to go abroad, any institution that caters for them is self-condemned. We cannot all be Senators or Deputies or Ministers. Some people have got to work, and, if we cannot find work for them at home, then we should see that they get such training as will enable them to earn in another country that livelihood which their own country is unable to provide them with. I have not heard yet any sound argument against this amendment. The Minister thought he saw a wonderful peg on which to hang his hat when he pounced on the words, "compulsory Irish," as being behind the whole thing. But he admitted that compulsory Irish would probably be a subject in the College of Science if it had continued as a separate institution. Then, opposition to this proposal has been attributed to jealousy on the part of Trinity College. I hold no brief for Trinity College or for any other college. I am concerned only for the interest of those who have very little money to spend on education—those who desire to get the best specialised knowledge they can in the shortest possible period. This amendment, I believe, marks a step in that direction. Since it does—I have yet to be convinced that it does not—I am going to vote in favour of it.

Mr. BROWN

I listened to the Minister most carefully. He is always most ingenious and interesting, but, with great respect, he did not answer the point which is the very kernel of my amendment. He said that the subjects which were taught in the College of Science would continue to be taught in University College. He said that it would be possible under their statutes—though I was not quite able to follow him there—to give diplomas or degrees in every subject in which an associateship or a diploma could have been given by the College of Science. That may be so; I am willing to accept the Minister's assurance that it is so. But that is not the point. Will a student get the same kind of cachet from the National University that he got from the College of Science? Will he be able to obtain these benefits without having to take some other university course?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Yes.

Mr. BROWN

It is suggested that he ought to matriculate. I agree. Matriculation is a small thing. He had to matriculate when he was in the College of Science, and it is right that everyone who is to get an associateship or a diploma of this kind should have a preliminary education entitling him to enter the institution. But that is a small thing, and nobody could object to a person having to pass the ordinary matriculation examination of the National University when wishing to pursue the course in University College that he formerly pursued in the College of Science. But what I want to ensure by my amendment, whatever form it takes, is that once a person gets in there, as a matriculated student or as a non-matriculated student, he will not have to take any university course other than the professional course he would have taken in the College of Science. If it would be possible to attain that end by any other words I am willing to alter the form of my amendment, and accordingly I would suggest that the matter be allowed to remain over until the Report Stage. If the Minister can suggest any way by which the Bill will ensure that a student will not have to pursue some other and further course than he would have pursued in the College of Science I will be perfectly satisfied.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I think there is an impression here that science students—let me take the case of science students as an illustration— have to pursue some course of wide general culture in addition to science.

Mr. BROWN

That they had not to pursue in the College of Science.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

There is an impression abroad that in the university he has to do that. That is not the case.

Mr. BROWN

I would like to be satisfied from the existing statutes of the National University that it would be possible for a student having matriculated there to get a diploma, or whatever you like to call it, with the cachet that came from the old College of Science without having to pursue the ordinary courses of the National University.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I suggest to the Senator that it is not a question of statutes. I can assure him that there is a great liberality to make courses. What I think the Senator wants to be sure of is what are the courses in University College, Dublin. It is the schedule of subjects rather than the statutes that he wants. I can give him the calendar which he can study between this and the Report Stage. It is quite wrong for the Seanad, sitting in this particular year, to put into a Bill that will be a general Act containing this particular demise for ninety-nine years a clause that stereotypes the same courses which happen to be in existence now at the time of the change over.

Mr. BROWN

No.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I do not know what the amendment will effect. If the Senator wishes that the Seanad should now pass judgment upon what the future courses of instruction should be I do not see how you can bind the university. I suggest an easier way. Money has to be voted every year for the university, and the Estimate has to be examined every year in the other House. There can be an examination of the courses students have to go through each year. and one can compare that with the old associateship of the College of Science. But you cannot say now what in five years hence ought to be either deductions from or additions to the associateship course. It seems to me to be rather a dangerous matter to put into a Bill of this kind that will last for a considerable period an amendment the effect of which will be to stereotype the courses. That matter can be watched from year to to year. That takes away a certain point, because as it would only come up on the Estimate, and as this House has no control over the Estimate it could not be raised here. But in the Dáil representations and protestations could be made.

Mr. BROWN

I want to be sure that a student who goes to the National University will be able to take the course in agriculture, applied chemistry, or engineering. They will develop as time goes on.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I can show the Senator the calendar, which indicates that this year students can get these degrees without additions. But I cannot say that five years hence the trend of university education in this country may not be towards insisting on every student doing the first examination in an Arts course as a preliminary to entering upon a specialised course, and I would ask the Seanad not to be foolish enough to say that they are going to bind the university authorities.

Mr. O'FARRELL

Could we not have an amending Bill if necessary?

Dr. GOGARTY

This is asking the Seanad to put certain conditions in a lease.

CATHAOIRLEACH

This is not, perhaps, in order, but I can assure the House that I did not want to rush the Minister, nor did I want to rush those who are supporting the amendment. I think the matter has been fully discussed. Senator Brown has suggested that it might stand over till the Report, with a view to the Minister and himself being able to come to some solution, but if that suggestion does not commend itself I had better put the amendment.

Mr. DOUGLAS

I hope that, apart from the Minister, it will be left over, because it seems quite clear to me that there are some words in the later part of it that might stereotype it.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I should say this, that there is at any rate one point in dispute as between the Senator and myself. There is the point that as a consideration for the demise——

A SENATOR

Divide, divide.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Surely the Minister ought to be allowed to conclude what he has to say.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I think I have said all I want to say.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. O'HANLON

I do not propose to open up a debate on the amendment which I have put down, but I would like to have the views of the Minister on the matter.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

It will be possible for students to found on their diploma or associateship some higher degree. There is provision for that in the statutes, and the President of University College, Dublin, has assured me that he will deal with these people in two ways. Without becoming graduates of the University, they will be allowed to proceed to a higher degree, Mastership or Doctorate—either by examination, plus published work, or by published work and thesis alone. That class of student is definitely being provided for.

Mr. BARRINGTON

Without payment of fees?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

By no means. With payment of such fees as would have been required in the old days. There is an impression abroad that the College of Science was the poor man's university, whereas it was quite definitely the rich man's university.

Mr. O'HANLON

I would like to have the opinion of the Minister on other aspects. I will leave it over until the Report Stage.

Amendment not moved.

Section 7 put and agreed to.

Colonel MOORE

On Section 8, I wish to refer to the manner in which Galway University College is being treated by the Government. Large sums are being voted to the University Colleges of Cork and Dublin under this Bill, but not a single shilling is being given to Galway.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I cannot have a general discussion on that. You can discuss that, apropos of a suitable amendment. We are in Committee and not on Second Reading. Have you any amendment to move?

Colonel MOORE

My amendment would be that University College, Cork, be not given this money.

CATHAOIRLEACH

You really must have something a little more artistic than that. If you are serious in that and draft an amendment, I will see whether it can be moved or not.

Colonel MOORE

May I bring the matter up on Report?

CATHAOIRLEACH

Yes. May I suggest that the proper way would be to move to delete whatever clause appropriates the money in some way with which you do not agree.

Colonel MOORE

I will bring the matter up on Report.

Section 8 and remaining sections, Schedule and Title, ordered to stand part of the Bill.