LOCAL AUTHORITIES (OFFICERS AND EMPLOYEES) BILL, 1926—COMMITTEE (RESUMED).
Amendments 2, 3 and 4 not moved.
Question—"That Section 6 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 7, SUB-SECTION (1).
Whenever a local authority or the Minister requests the Commissioners to recommend a person for appointment to an office to which this Act applies the Commissioners shall with the consent of the Minister prescribe the qualifications as to age, health, character, and (where in the opinion of the Commissioners the duties of the office so require) sex for such office.
I move:—
After the word "shall" in line 43, to insert the words "after such consultation as may be possible with the local authority and".
In sub-section (3) arrangement is made for consultation with certain bodies and associations by the Commissioners. The object of the amendment is to ensure that consultation should take place with the local authority as local authority. It is not very much to ask, and I think it is reasonable that when consultation is possible the local authority should be consulted in all these cases. It really would not matter very much, but I think it is very reasonable that where, as I tried to point out on the previous amendment, local authorities are possessed of particular specific knowledge, they ought to be consulted wherever possible. I would ask the Minister to accept the amendment. It is very reasonable, and I think its acceptance would do something to soften the acerbities and make the Bill a little more acceptable to the local authorities.
There is not any great objection to the amendment. The only point is that the whole principle of the Bill is to try to arrive at a standard of qualifications for different positions. In the case of an appointment of a county medical officer of health I do not think it would be advisable that after consultation with the county council, say, in Kerry, we should arrive at a different standard of qualifications from those we should arrive at after consulting the County Council of Wicklow. In the actual administration of the Bill it would create difficulties and a certain amount of trouble, but if the Seanad is in favour of the amendment I will not raise any objection to it.
Would there be any practical difficulty in consulting the General Council of County Councils That would settle it. I do not think it would make any difference in practice, but it might meet the Senator's objection.
A subsequent clause provides that the Commissioners, if they think fit, may consult with such associations or bodies as the Minister may consider to be representative of local authorities. It would be a useful concession.
I do not think it would be advisable to have consultations with each separate local authority.
CATHAOIRLEACH
I would suggest that the Senator might get rid of the Minister's objection if he put in the same words as are in the subsequent sub-section, "possible or convenient."
I am quite prepared to do that if the Minister wishes.
CATHAOIRLEACH
That would give the Minister a discretion in the matter. It might be very inconvenient for him to have to do it in certain cases.
On the other hand, if you introduce what Senator Bennett wants you are setting up a standard for every county, and as the Minister has pointed out, that will lead to confusion.
CATHAOIRLEACH
The recommendation might be completely ignored. It is only to point out what their views are, and the Minister is not bound to accept them at all.
That is so, but, on the other hand, you are introducing something that might lead to trouble.
CATHAOIRLEACH
You do not set up any standard, because the Minister is not bound to do more than to consult, and if their views do not accord, that is the worse for the local authority. Perhaps this would be looked upon to some extent as a concession to these local authorities.
I think it might be looked on as a concession to the Seanad, but if one looks at it from the Commissioners' point of view, I should describe it as a concession that the Commissioners would not approve of. I think Senator Guinness is right. Supposing a request is made by a county council for the consideration of certain local conditions, and the Commissioners have the right to say: "No, we will not consult," you would have trouble. This is in order to please the Seanad. I think any practical individual would say that it would create a very difficult situation for the Commissioners to put in an arrangement which, if they act in one way, may cause them a great deal of trouble, and in another may do a great deal of harm. I think this type of permissive clause which really means nothing ought to be considered very bad in an Act of Parliament.
I think the Minister might accept it.
CATHAOIRLEACH
But the Minister cannot compel the House to accept it.
Amendment put and declared lost.
I would like to ask the Minister what he has in mind in giving the Commissioners power to prescribe sex. I wonder that lady Senators have not noticed this. We rejected a Bill on that very issue, and with the all-prevailing activities of women nowadays I cannot conceive any appointment under a local authority which a lady, per se, is not qualified to occupy.
CATHAOIRLEACH
There might be the converse case; there might be some post which would only be suitable for a lady.
I do not know that that is the intention. Conversely, I cannot conceive any post which a member of the male sex is not qualified to occupy. I think there is a danger in this.
This proviso will work more in the interests of the female sex than of the male sex, because there are a number of appointments, such as nurses and midwives, under local authorities for which it would be very awkward to have male aspirants. If we leave out this proviso, I am afraid that we could not keep them out under any other section, if that ridiculous position were to arise.
Section 7 put and agreed to.
SECTION 8, SUB-SECTION (3).
The Commissioners may, after consultation with the Minister, make regulations for the conduct (including time and place and subjects) of competitive examinations to be held by them for the purpose of this section, and such regulations may relate to such examinations generally or to one or more classes of such examinations or to one or more particular examinations.
I move:—
To add at the end of the sub-section the words "such regulations shall provide that no preference shall be given to any class of persons."
I think it is desirable to put an end to the system that has been in existence for some time in the filling of appointments of several offices in this country that a preference should be given to any class of persons. I think the time has arrived when all these posts should be filled by an open competitive examination, and that no class should have any preference over another.
CATHAOIRLEACH
I am afraid, Senator, that you have lost your opportunity for this. We have already passed Clause 7. which gives power to delimit the classes of selection and put them in special classes. You have allowed that to pass without challenge.
I will submit my amendment to Section 7 on the Report Stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 8 put and agreed to.
SECTION 9.
Whenever a local authority or the Minister requests the Commissioners to recommend a person for appointment to an office to which this Act applies and the Commissioners with the concurrence of the Minister are of opinion that, having regard to the nature of the duties of that office, the knowledge and experience necessary for the efficient performance of those duties, and the qualifications prescribed under this Act for that office, the person or persons to be recommended for appointment to that office cannot be satisfactorily selected by competitive examination, the Commissioners may dispense with the competitive examination required by this Act and may select the person or persons to be recommended by them to the local authority by such means and in such manner as they think proper.
I move:—
After the words "Commissioners" in line 29 to insert the words "after consultation with the local authority and".
I am making one more attempt to get some small recognition for the local authorities and their capabilities. Here we come to the question of the appointment of professional persons to posts on the selection of the Commissioners and the Minister. I would suggest that when they are considering what appointments are to be filled by competitive examination they might take the local authorities into their confidence and consult them. We have now come to the stage at which a certain appointment may or may not be filled by a competitive examination, and I think that we ought to have consultation between the persons who know best, the Minister, the Commissioners and the local authority, to permit of that being done.
I think the principle involved in this is the same as that in the amendment that has just been defeated. It would leave it in the power of each individual local authority to decide what particular qualifications are of a kind that would necessitate having the appointments made by means of a selection board instead of by examination. I think that that has been decided from the national point of view. In the case of those county medical officers, in one instance the county council might be anxious to have the appointment made by means of examination, and in others by means of a selection board. I do not think that individual local authorities should have any say at all in matters of this kind.
Amendment put and declared lost.
Sections 9, 10 and 11 put and agreed to.
SECTION 12.
(1) The remuneration of the Commissioners and their officers and all expenses incurred by the Commissioners or otherwise in carrying this Act into effect shall, to such amount as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance, be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas.
(2) Within one month after the end of every local financial year the Commissioners shall certify to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health—
(a) the total amount expended in the preceding local financial year in paying the remuneration of the Commissioners and the expenses incurred by the Commissioners in carrying this Act into effect, and
(b) the total amount received by the Commissioners in such preceding local financial year in fees paid to them under this Act, and
(c) the amount (if any) (hereinafter referred to as "the said excess") by which the said total amount expended exceeds the said total amount received.
(3) The Minister for Local Government and Public Health shall by order under his seal assess the said excess on the several counties and county boroughs in Saorstát Eireann rateably in proportion to the net annual value of the property rateable for poor rate in such counties and county boroughs respectively and shall send to the council of every such county and county borough a copy of such order.
(4) The council of every county and county borough shall raise by means of the poor rate as a county-at-large charge the proportion of the said excess assessed on their county or county borough by such order and shall pay such proportion when raised into the Exchequer in such manner as the Minister for Finance shall direct.
I move:—
"To delete Sub-section 3."
We have now come to the last section of this very drastic Bill. We have had local authorities completely snubbed and put into what the Ministry regards as their proper position—put into, in my opinion, a position of irresponsibility. I am afraid that men of self-respect will, to a large extent, be deterred, in future, from exercising their duties on local authorities. Having done all this, having completely taken out of the hands of local authorities, any power or any consideration in regard to competitive examinations or appointments, we come to this section which provides for the paying of the piper after the tune has been called. The Commissioners call the tune. They set up a national system of competitive examination of which Mayo, Kerry, Galway, Limerick, Cork, Clare and Dublin are given equal shares, and having done this they now resort to getting the money. They say to the local authority, "you are worthless as a body but you are very useful as a taxing machine. You are completely unable to discharge useful functions and you must now pay for the system which we set up." I maintain that this system is a national one, and, that being so, I do not think that under this Bill funds should be provided by each local unit. The hope of various parties here was that a system of examination was being developed, and I do not think that they will fail to agree with the view, that under a system which has eliminated their responsibility they should be made to bear the cost. I do not think it is necessary to go into the merits or demerits of the case and I, accordingly, move the amendment.
Surely the Senator should tell the House how he proposes to pay these costs that will be incurred, if the different councils do not pay them according to their rateable valuation. If these two clauses are knocked out of the Bill there would be no way of paying the costs.
The first sub-section of Section 12 says: "The remuneration of the Commissioners and their officers and all expenses incurred by the Commissioners or otherwise in carrying this Act into effect shall, to such amount as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance, be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas." The central fund is capable of certain charges. The costs of the Civil Service in England are met out of the central fund, and my hope is that the cost of the national Civil Service here will be discharged out of the central fund.
There will be very little difference in the end. If the councils are not asked to pay they will simply overlook what the cost is going to be. If it is to be put into the general demand note of the Government on the whole community without any real specification, there will be very little about it, whereas, it will keep the local authorities very much in touch with the whole thing if each council has to consider the assessment made upon it. It will make local bodies look after their affairs carefully when they have to pay the cost. I think it is better to let it be paid by each county, as, in either event, the share which each citizen will be called upon to pay will be pretty much the same. Local bodies will know what they are being charged. I do not agree with the statement of Senator Bennett that the only function of county councils is to select members for various posts. I think there are a great many other things in which these councils have considerable duties to exercise. I think it would be a great mistake to remove this from amongst the matters which are brought directly under their observation.
I desire to support the amendment. According to the provisions of the Bill, a council would have to subscribe to the expenses of this Commission even though they had not a single appointment to make during the year. All the expenses will be pooled and each county will have to pay in proportion to its rateable valuation, not in proportion to the amount of work which it has put on the Commissioners. According to sub-section (1) the expenses of the Commissioners are to be provided for by moneys voted by the Oireachtas and sanctioned by the Minister for Finance. I think by that arrangement the expenses of the Commission will fall in a very even manner over the entire Saorstát. It will have this further advantage, that it is possible that the Civil Service Commission, which holds examinations for all the posts throughout the country, might be amalgamated with these Commissioners, so that there would not be overlapping. In that way expenses might be kept down to a moderate amount. Instead of having the ratepayers paying this expense, I think it should fall, as provided in sub-section (1) on the taxpayer. It does not make much difference but I think there may be opportunities of preventing the overlapping which I have mentioned by having a regular Civil Service Commission, as they have in other countries, enabling local bodies and Government departments to obtain the best men for their service.
I think too much attention is being given to this question of expense, as to a large extent the expense in regard to examinations is defrayed by the competitors by means of the fees charged. The expenses in connection with the Civil Service Commission in England are very largely met by those fees.
This is only one further indication of a very vicious principle that is gradually eating into public life, namely, the tendency of the central body to impose regulations, desirable, perhaps, from their detached standpoint, without any demand and against the will of the local authority. There may be cases, for instance, such as the appointment of medical officers of health in which these conditions would be desirable, but in the long run the principle is not desirable. If, in addition, to having the power to impose these regulations, you also have power to throw all the costs on the local authority, you get back to the principle of taxation without representation, a principle which should be resisted. Local authorities are more and more being made what I may call the marionettes of the central authority, and if, in addition, they have got to pay the costs, you are going to undermine their responsibility, and further aggravate that feeling of discontent which I know is very strong in the country.
It is not a question of paying the entire costs of these examinations, except when the excess of the costs is over the amount voted by the Central Parliament in respect of this expenditure. I am sorry that I do not agree with Senator Bennett on the subject. As I understand it, if there is an excess in that expenditure the local bodies will be made aware of it. That, I think, would be an advantage as it would focus their attention more directly to the expense involved in carrying out these examinations. If there happens to be a larger amount spent than that allowed for by the Oireachtas it would be up to the ratepayers to ascertain the cause of it. I think it would tend to increase local interest in regard to these examinations. I desire, also, to say that I do not think that this Bill will make the least difference in regard to people going on local councils. My own experience on many local bodies was that this question of appointing candidates was an unmitigated nuisance. There was canvassing from morning till night for all sorts of posts, and any Bill that relieves local representatives of that great nuisance will be of great benefit to the public and of great convenience to themselves.
I think that Senator Sir John Keane's view of this matter is quite right and that it should not be discussed in relation to the profit or loss of the Commissioners in carrying out their duties, but rather in regard to the principle underlying it. If a loss is made owing to the extra duties of the Commissioners the proposal is that arbitrarily an assessment shall be made over the whole area. As pointed out by Senator Linehan, bodies which did not benefit at all will be assessed in proportion to their valuation in the same way as the local authorities that called most upon the services of the Commissioners during the financial year. As another Senator has said, these things pay for themselves by the fees received from applicants. If there is a profit is there going to be a distribution? The first sub-section of Section 12 provides that the remuneration of the Commissioners shall be paid out of moneys voted by the Oireachtas. Is the principle of allocation or assessment applied in connection with all other functions and duties, outside this Bill, in connection with the duties performed by the Civil Service Commission? They perform duties affecting every local authority but is there a like assessment made upon them from time to time. If there is not this is an innovation. If it is an innovation that is well founded it may reasonably be argued that in the case of every Department of State functioning generally, and in the case of various local authorities there should be a proportionate assessment, according to the nature and extent of these functions during the financial year. That would give rise to complications in auditing and accounting to which no Government would be equal. I think Senator Sir John Keane put his finger on the spot when he asked whether this was a proper principle, whether it was well founded. If it is an innovation here I think it deserves the closest examination, and for my part I cannot support it.
This is really something in the nature of a storm in a teacup, because, as Senator Barrington pointed out, the receipts will probably cover the cost of administration. As regards the point about an innovation of principle, we have a precedent in the case of the Combined Purchasing Act. I think the whole matter depends on the question whether the Bill is in the interests of local authorities or not. Practically every Senator has expressed the view that, taken as a whole, the Bill will be of benefit to local authorities. That seems to be the general view and, if that is the case, I think it is up to local authorities to pay for it. I do not see why it should be made a charge on the central fund. I do not think that we are making any imposition on them in asking them to pay for something that is going to be to their own advantage.
Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 13; Níl, 22.
Tá.
- Thomas Westropp Bennett.
- James Dillon.
- Michael Fanning.
- Benjamin Haughton.
- Sir John Keane.
- Patrick W. Kenny.
- Thomas Linehan.
- James MacKean.
- Colonel Maurice Moore.
- Joseph O'Connor.
- Michael F. O'Hanlon.
- Stephen O'Mara.
- William O'Sullivan.
Níl.
- Henry L. Barniville.
- William Barrington.
- Sir E. Coey Bigger.
- Samuel L. Brown.
- Mrs. Eileen Costello.
- John C. Counihan.
- Countess of Desart.
- James Douglas.
- J.C. Dowdall.
- Michael Duffy.
- Sir T.H. Grattan Esmonde.
- Sir Nugent Talbot Everard.
- Thomas Farren.
- Oliver St. John Gogarty.
- Mrs. Alice Stopford Green.
- Sir John P. Griffith.
- Henry Seymour Guinness.
- Rt. Hon. Andrew Jameson.
- Francis MacGuinness.
- John MacLoughlin.
- John Thomas O'Farrell.
- Bernard O'Rourke.
Amendment declared lost.
Amendment 9 not moved.
Sections 12, 13 and the Title ordered to stand part of the Bill.
