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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Feb 1927

Vol. 8 No. 4

PUBLIC BUSINESS. - LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL, 1926—THIRD STAGE.

The Seanad went into Committee.
Sections 1 to 5 agreed to.
SECTION 6.
(5) The council shall divide the agricultural grant amongst all the agricultural lands in the county (exclusive of any urban district therein) in proportion to the rateable value of such agricultural lands assessable to the poor rate, and shall allow the amount assigned on such division to any agricultural land by way of abatement from the amount of the poor rate made in respect of such land or the hereditament or tenement of which such agricultural land forms part.
(6) Every deficiency in the sum raised in an area of charge for any expenses which is caused by the abatements made under the foregoing sub-section shall be made good out of the agricultural grant.

I wish to bring under the Minister's notice a difficulty that has arisen in practice in connection with the working of the Public Bodies Order with regard to the striking of a rate for a financial year. Under the Order the estimate for expenditure on roads has to be considered and decided at least one month before the end of the year. At the time a council has no knowledge of other charges for poor law, mental homes and general county services. It is asked to strike a rate for roads, representing a very considerable sum, while it has no knowledge of its total liabilities. From the financial point of view that is grotesque. I know there is a feeling that whatever the wealth may be the cost of the services must predominate and a certain standard must be provided. That reminds me of the saying of a well-known literary gentleman, whom I met only once, that we should all live at the rate of £10,000 a year.

The position of these councils is that they have restricted and diminishing resources and must cut their coats according to their cloth. The only thing they can cut is expenditure on roads. The other expenditure is statutory or mandatory so that any retrenchment the county council may desire to make must fall on the roads. If the Public Bodies Order is to be carried out what the county councils are driven to do is to make a nominal estimate, by striking a conservative rate, which is possibly totally inadequate but may be increased later when the total liabilities are known. That is a very unbusinesslike arrangement, and I would like some assurance from the Minister that the matter will receive his attention. All it leads to is friction between the superior Olympic authorities in Dublin and those on the ground floor. As the Minister knows there is quite enough friction already. Where the causes can be removed, I hope that will be done.

I move the following amendment to Section 6:—

"To delete the sub-sections (5) and (6)."

The effect of this section, if retained in the Bill, is that the agricultural grant will be distributed equally on agricultural land over the entire county, and not, as heretofore, by different rates in each rural district. The Local Government Act of 1898 made this grant in consideration of the occupying tenants assuming liability for the landlord's portion of the poor rate and county cess. It was calculated for each union or rural district on the basis of the rate actually levied in the year 1897, which was known as the standard year. For more than a quarter of a century the ratepayers of each rural district have been allowed, off their gross payments in respect of rates, the amount of the agricultural grant allotted to the particular rural district in which their holding was situate. In the different rural districts of each county the grant varied considerably. The sub-sections provide for a flat rate for the whole county and will do a serious injustice to many ratepayers by reducing the amount of their agricultural grant.

I should like to point out that under Section 55 of the Local Government Act, 1898, it is provided that rents fixed by the Land Commission should be on the assumption that there was no increase or diminution of the standard year rates; that the landlord was to get the benefit of the agricultural grant in respect of the poor rate, and the tenant of the county cess. Tenants have since purchased their holdings on the basis of rents so fixed, and the annuities payable by them under the Land Purchase Acts have been calculated on the assumption that the agricultural grants would not be varied. I do not think it is good policy to tamper with the agricultural grant as solemnly fixed by the Act of 1898. If it is done it will be a substantial grievance. It is difficult to understand why it is now proposed to alter an arrangement so long in existence.

The plea may be one of simplifying the applotment of the rates and saving clerical work. If that is so, it is not a sufficient reason for reducing the grant to the ratepayers. As the agricultural grant is now double, the grievance will be still greater. I instance a few cases where rural districts will lose in respect of agricultural grants. In County Cork, Castletownbere rural district will lose 1/10 in the £. That will have to be made up by an increase of a similar amount on other rates. The rural district of Schull will lose 1/8½ in the £, Bantry 9½d., Cork 9d., Skibbereen 6½d. Senators will notice that these are the poorest districts in the county. In County Donegal, Glenties rural district will be heavily hit if the section is retained in the Bill. In County Galway the grant will be reduced in Clifden and Oughterard; and in County Mayo, Belmullet district will be hardly hit. In County Tipperary the districts of Nenagh and Thurles will lose, and in Roscommon, Carrick-on-Shannon No. 2 rural district. I hope Senators will satisfy themselves before passing this section that it is not going to do a great injustice to ratepayers in particular districts.

An important point in this Bill came before the Poor Law Commission, which has not yet reported. The question was whether we should have regard to the circumstances of poorer districts. The Government grants are at present distributed on a proportionate rate without having any regard to the wealth of a district. It is obviously only just, that some regard should be had to the wealth of a district in distributing a grant from the Central Fund. I think we should pause before passing the section, as poorer districts find it very hard to meet the burden imposed upon them for the public services.

Senator Linehan has made a very full exposition of the case. He suggested that the section was intended to simplify applotment of the rate. That could not have been the intention, as Section 5 retains an arrangement for separate applotment of the rate in each rural district. In my opinion, all the charges in each county should be county charges. This Bill does not recognise that essential proposition. The Bill recognises certain charges as district charges, and others as county charges. As Senator Linehan has pointed out, all these charges were based on the actual expenditure in the standard year. If you segregate from the particular locality the amount of relief they are entitled to under the Act, and if you give them lesser relief while continuing the burden, you are doing them a grave injustice. While it is hard to arouse enthusiasm in the Seanad for local charges I feel, from the case Senator Linehan has so strongly put, that the House cannot fail to agree to the amendment. Take the case of a locality that was getting relief to the extent of 2s. 4d. in the £. Under the Bill that locality would only get 1s. It will suffer a loss of 1s. 4d., although under the Bill all the other charges are to be continued. I strongly support the amendment, and I urge the Government to accept it.

Senator Linehan's amendment is founded on a misunderstanding. To begin with, the procedure which he and Senator Sir John Keane have objected to and which they think is only coming into operation with the Bill, is already in operation.

By Order?

Yes, but it is in force at present. Heretofore, before the abolition of rural district councils, the agricultural grant was apportioned to each district separately and in proportion to the expenditure in each district. As the expenditure varied in each district it was only right that its portion of the agricultural grant should vary also. Now, since the abolition of the rural district councils, all these charges are made county charges, with the exception of those on labourers' cottages, which are discretionary. All other charges, such as poor law charges, road maintenance, and public health charges, are county-at-large charges now. There would be no justification, where the expenditure in each particular district is the same, for not having the agricultural grant apportioned to each district equally. The natural effect of the amendment would be that the agricultural grant, instead of being confined, as it is, to agricultural land, would be applied equally to agricultural land and other hereditaments, and it would have an effect altogether different to that at which it is aimed. There is justification for the revision of the whole policy with regard to the agricultural grant which is founded on a somewhat archaic basis.

Amendment put and declared carried.

I move:

"To add after sub-section 8 a new sub-section as follows:—(9) Save in the County and City of Dublin sub-section 1 of Section 96 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, shall cease to have effect."

The amendment seeks to repeal sub-section 1 of Section 96 of the Local Government Act, 1898. In that section the county councils are bound, after making the rate, to send a copy to each board of guardians in the district. Now that there are no boards of guardians it will be impossible and unnecessary for them to do so, but, under the Adaption of Enactments Act, the Minister has adapted that section and he is proposing that, in lieu of sending it to the board of guardians, it is to be sent to one of the Civic Guard stations in each public health district. I have been informed by people who ought to know that it is an unnecessary expense, namely, to make a second complete copy of the rate book in each county for the purpose of sending it to one of the Civic Guard stations in each public health district. In the case of County Cork I am told that it would mean more than £500 expense. I think it is unnecessary but if the Minister thinks that it is necessary I will not press the amendment.

The amendment is really a trivial one and does not matter very much. Before the passing of the last Act, provision was made in every rural district council to enable the rate book applying to that particular district to be shown to the ratepayers on application. In adapting the Act we inserted the Civic Guard barracks instead. It is not a matter on which we stand very firmly as to whether the provision should be continued. It will not amount to very much expense on the ratepayers.

Could the matter be gone into further at a later stage? In my personal experience I think this arrangement is unnecessary. It is far more important that the information should be supplied correctly to the inspectors of taxes whose books are not kept up to date. I do not think that any purpose is served by exhibiting the rate books in the Civic Guard barracks. Anybody who really wants to have particulars of the rates can go to the county council, but it is very seldom that they are wanted.

I have been informed that the secretary of the county council will supply the information required for a fee of sixpence. If it is required without a certificate it is given free.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Perhaps the Senate would adopt the amendment, subject to any alteration which the Minister might see fit to make on Report. He may find that it is not as simple a matter as it looks, and if there is reasonable objection it can be brought forward on Report.

I am satisfied.

Amendment put, and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 6 as amended stand part of the Bill"—put, and agreed to.
Sections 7, 8, 9 and 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CATHAOIRLEACH

In the temporary absence of Senator O'Farrell, who has an amendment down to Section 11, we shall pass on to Section 12.

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