On a point of order, are we not breaking Standing Orders, 59 particularly, by taking this Bill and the three subsequent ones on the day immediately following the Second Stage?
MEDICAL (No. 2) BILL, 1926—THIRD STAGE.
The Seanad went into Committee.
CATHAOIRLEACH
I was going to call attention to it and to point out that it gives an illustration of how difficult and dangerous it may be if we the up our hands too tightly in the matter of suspension of Standing Orders. We have, of course, an alternative which the Committee on Procedure ought to consider carefully and it is this, that where a Bill has passed through its second or third Stage without opposition or amendment the House should have power—it should not be compelled—to take the remaining stages at the same sitting. Otherwise, it would be almost incumbent on you to kill certain measures which are required to come into operation at once. I wish to say with regard to this Medical Bill that I think Senators have a right to complain; we have no Minister in charge of it or anyone to tell us what it is about. We have been left entirely to ourselves to find out whether it is urgent or not. You can only ascertain the urgency by a close inspection of the Bill because looking at the contents of the Bill it would appear if it were passed before the 21st February that would be sufficient for the Government's purpose, but my attention has been called to the statement made by the President in the other House. He there pointed out that inasmuch as the Order to be made under this Bill, if it passes into law, has to be made before the 21st February, and making allowance for the seven days which have to elapse before the Bill, after passing, can come into operation, that it must be through this House not later than the 14th February. It seems to me, therefore, unless we allow it to go through to-day, it being an uncontested Bill, as I understand it is, it would be necessary for me to convene this House next Wednesday for the sole and only purpose of passing this Bill through the Report and Final Stages. That is a procedure that would take only about five minutes in the case of an uncontested Bill. Accordingly I directed the Clerk to put this Bill on the Agenda to-day in view of its urgency.
Different considerations apply to the Bills dealing with the Constitution, and as regards those I put them on the Agenda in case any Senators might think it desirable to dispose of the Committee Stages to-day. I am not going to ask the House or press them to take them to-day, but we can deal with them when we come to them. The immediate matter is the Medical Bill, and I do not know whether the Minister for Local Government has anything to do with that Bill. He probably will explain to the House the urgency of it. I think I have made the point clear, but if I am wrong in what I said I would be glad if he would correct me.
This Bill is only to continue the present arrangements with regard to the Medical Act until a more important Bill is brought into being. Negotiations at present are pending to bring forward that Bill, but we feel it will take at least three or four months before those arrangements are completed. It is in order to complete our arrangements and not to have complete chaos in their arrangement with regard to the Medical Acts that this Bill is brought before the Seanad, and it is absolutely necessary that it should be in force before the 21st. We also have to allow time for the Order to come into operation.
CATHAOIRLEACH
In view of the special circumstances if the House is agreeable that we should proceed with it to-day it is necessary that some Senator should move the suspension of Standing Orders.
I move the suspension of Standing Orders to enable the remaining stages of the Medical (No. 2) Bill, 1926, to be disposed of.
I second.
Before you put that, do you not think what we are up against is that the Seanad is not going to meet next week? There is no other reason why we should not take it next Wednesday and put it in order.
CATHAOIRLEACH
No.
Would it not be better that the Seanad should recognise that we are breaking No. 11 of our Standing Orders to meet every Wednesday? You have tried very hard to meet our convenience by letting us off as often as you can and only summoning us when there is plenty of business. The result of that has been just what we are at now that the Seanad has to do things, which I do not think they ought to do, that is to suspend their Standing Orders in this way. I take it for granted the Government could not have avoided this. But I think it could have hurried up a bit. I do not think when it is a choice of putting the Government in a difficulty or of having the Seanad meet once a week, which they ought to do, that there is a strong case made out for the suspension of Standing Orders. We can always have a number of Senators in this House to do our business. This is not a contentious Bill, and it seems to me that it were far better for the Seanad if we had an understanding to meet throughout the Session on Wednesdays.
CATHAOIRLEACH
It is not quite that. The Standing Order indicates "should the business so notified be, in the opinion of the Cathaoirleach, neither of such urgency nor importance as to justify the holding of a meeting."
The whole point of this is urgency. It is very important apparently that this Bill must be got through.
CATHAOIRLEACH
I leave the matter entirely in the hands of the Seanad. I can only say that there would be a good deal of complaint if I were to convene a meeting of the Seanad for Wednesday next and the sole and only business to be disposed of would be an unopposed Bill.
Are you aware that there are three other Bills, two of them contentious, and we will have four Bills at least? They are on the Order Paper in violation of the Standing Orders and I shall oppose them because of that.
I suggest to the Cathaoirleach that from now on for two or three months we should make an effort to meet every Wednesday. If that leads to a great inconvenience and outcry then we can consider the situation but at any rate we will be doing our duty. The Government will have no grounds for complaints which have been frequently, with some justification, urged against the Seanad. If there is no business to take up the time on Monday it is quite possible to send out notice. In any case we will have members here to do the business. The country members will know whether the business is important or not. If we do not suspend Standing Orders except in cases of urgency country members will know that important business will only be done in that way.
I recognise that the Chairman's desire is to facilitate those at a distance. I think he has been over-anxious to facilitate members of the Seanad and it has resulted in a certain amount of criticism. It is always easy to discuss a Bill which is practically unopposed. I suggest we should take the Committee Stage to-day, meet next Wednesday and take the Committee Stage of the Constitution Bills. If we should agree to take the Report and Final Stages of the Medical Bill to-day the whole thing would be better.
CATHAOIRLEACH
There is great force in what the Senator says. I think from and after this day fortnight we will require to meet every week. Owing to the fact that the Dáil adjourned recently for a fortnight we have very little business coming from the Dáil at present.
I am greatly afraid, once it becomes a practice to hold a meeting of the Seanad every week, wholly regardless of the amount and the nature of the business, we may occasionally find ourselves without a quorum, and I think that would be more to the discredit of the Seanad than anything else. It is, however, a matter for the Seanad to decide. They can always remedy that state of affairs by attending.
In regard to this particular Bill, I think the Committee Stage cannot be taken to-day unless the Standing Orders are suspended. If the Seanad does not intend to put the Bill through its remaining stages to-day I do not think there is anything to be gained in suspending the Standing Orders. The best course would be to let every other Stage, including the Committee Stage, remain over until next Wednesday.
I suggest that as there is a question of urgency involved there is a good deal to be said for suspending the Standing Orders in order to take the Committee Stage. That does not apply to the remaining Stages.
CATHAOIRLEACH
What is to be gained by passing the Committee Stage to-day if we are going to meet on Wednesday next to transact the formal business of passing the Fourth and Final Stages of the Bill? That would take only three or four minutes. If we do not intend to put the Bill through all its stages to-day, why should we suspend the Standing Orders at all, and why not take all the remaining Stages on Wednesday next?
I think it is most ridiculous to have a meeting every Wednesday. It would be very inconvenient for the country members and, in addition, it would impose an additional tax on the State. The vouchers issued to enable country members to travel would amount to £40 or £50 weekly. I think the business can be nicely done at fortnightly meetings. That would obviate the expense I have referred to and would not be inconvenient for the country members. It is all very nice for the Senators who live in or near the city to attend every week, but to have country members attending here next Wednesday at an expense of £40 or £50 on the State in order to pass a Bill that is not in any way contentious, is merely a waste of time and a waste of State funds.
What Standing Order makes it necessary to postpone the Committee Stage of this Medical Bill until next Wednesday? I think we are entitled to take it to-day.
CATHAOIRLEACH
I am not quite certain about that. There is a Standing Order which requires an interval of two days—certainly one day in the case of Government Bills. I think the interval in the case of Private Bills is two days. I think Standing Order 73 touches on that matter. Standing Order 73 sets out:—
In the case of a Government Bill the motion for its Second Reading, for its reference to a Committee, for the consideration in Committee of the preamble and sections of the Bill, for considering the Bill on Report or for the passing of the Bill, shall not require to be proposed or seconded, but shall be put from the Chair. Not more than one stage of any Bill shall be taken on the same day.
Standing Order 59 sets out that amendments to a Bill must be in by eleven o'clock in the forenoon on the day before the Bill is to be considered. That is not practicable if the Seanad adjourns at 6 or 7 o'clock in the evening of the day prior to the consideration of the Committee Stage of the Bill.
CATHAOIRLEACH
At the same time it does not get rid of the fact that the only interval required between the different Stages of a Government Bill is one day. The two may be difficult to work together, but I think in practice any Senator who wanted to move an amendment to this Medical (No. 2) Bill could have handed it in before he left the House last night, and then he would have complied with the Standing Orders.
May I suggest, as I moved the suspension of the Standing Orders, that if the Seanad does not suspend Standing Orders in relation to this Bill, it will not have very much to do, because the Constitution (Amendment) Bills cannot be proceeded with to-day unless in that case also we suspend Standing Orders and the Seanad will probably object to suspending Standing Orders in relation to the Constitution (Amendment) Bills as they are matters of very great importance?
CATHAOIRLEACH
As regards three of them we are in the position that they are practically uncontested. The fourth Bill did form the subject-matter of discussion and it has been referred to a Select Committee. I doubt very much if that Committee will be able to sit and report in time for next Wednesday. If we adjourn the consideration of these Bills until Wednesday, it seems to me that the business will not occupy the House more than a quarter of an hour.
As far as the Medical (No. 2) Bill goes I quite agree with you. That measure will not occupy very many minutes. In regard to the Constitution (Amendment No. 2) Bill there are some matters of a controversial nature and that will probably take some time. The only other Bill that we can discuss to-day is the Local Government Bill.
CATHAOIRLEACH
Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof. Let us consider first what we are to do with this Medical (No. 2) Bill. If we are not going to put it through all its Stages to-day, I think we had better confine ourselves to the Committee Stage. If any Senator thinks he has not had time to put in amendments to this Medical (No. 2) Bill and moves that the consideration of the Committee Stage be adjourned until next Wednesday, I will put that motion to the House. If there is no desire to move an amendment to the Bill and if, as I think, it is perfectly in order before us to-day, we had better dispose of it. There is a motion at present before the Seanad. It has been proposed and seconded that the Standing Orders be suspended for the purpose of enabling the remaining Stages of the Medical (No. 2) Bill, 1926, to be considered to-day.
Question put, and, on a show of hands, declared carried.
Question—"That Sections 1, 2 and 3 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
Question—"That the Title stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be reported.
The Seanad went out of Committee.
Bill reported without amendment.