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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Apr 1927

Vol. 8 No. 20

RAILWAYS (ROAD MOTOR SERVICES) BILL, 1927—SECOND STAGE.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be read a second time."

With the general principles of this Bill I do not think any reasonable person can quarrel. It is an attempt merely to confer upon railway companies within the Saorstát rights with regard to road motor transport now enjoyed by every private citizen. It, however, suffers from a number of defects. In the first place, it is, in my opinion, very belated. It should have been introduced at least three years ago before certain vested interests in road transport were created, which will now, to a great extent, help to make its working rather difficult. It divides control between the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Local Government. Thirdly, it is merely another small piecemeal attempt to deal with a very complicated and important problem which can only be dealt with satisfactorily by one comprehensive measure co-ordinating the various systems of transport, both by rail, road, water and air, when we have aerial commercial services. The Government have shown an enormous lack of policy or general constructive ideas with regard to this question of transport. In 1922 they set up a Railways Commission to inquire into the whole question of railway re-organisation. There was a majority report and three out of the four Commissioners recommended the acquisition of the railways by the State. The Government failed to give legislative effect to their findings and introduced instead, a Bill amalgamating the railways completely within the Saorstát. Then, in 1923, they set up a Commission to inquire into the canals and inland waterways. That Commission reported after a careful study of the problem, but the recommendations went by the board, and have, so far, not been acted upon.

In November, 1923, the Labour Party in the Dáil introduced a Transport and Communications Bill which provided for a constructive and comprehensive solution of the whole transport problem. It involved the setting up of a Transport Ministry which should deal with rail, roads, aerial and postal services under the one Ministry. The Government were full of praises for the Bill, but saw that it was heavily defeated nevertheless. In April, 1924, the Railways Bill was introduced and has become law. Since that the Government have had to introduce two amending Bills, one regarding the directorate and another to fix the basis of compensation for redundant employees. Now we have another Bill introduced dealing with the railways and their connection with road motor transport. Strange to say, a month after this Bill is introduced the Government set up a Committee to inquire into the whole question of road transport, traffic regulations, speed maxima, cattle droving and matters of that kind. One would have imagined that a committee would have been set up and that its findings would have been before the Government before they introduced a Bill such as this. In addition, a Commission on Harbours was set up several months ago which is also considering another phase of transport. It is not in a position to deal with all harbours. It cannot deal, for example, with the harbours for Dublin and Cork. The result is that the question of transport is in a most deplorable state of chaos, and the attempt to solve it has been picemeal, without having any relationship to any other attempt. It is quite possible, when the recommendations of the Committee on Transport are available, that some of the Bills, such as the one before us, will have to be repealed or else amended out of all recognition. The question of transport is exceedingly important.

Apart from the question of commercial and industrial development, the amount of traffic passing is exceedingly limited. At the best of times, when the railway had almost a complete monopoly of transport, there was hardly sufficient to keep them going at full speed. It was certainly never a very profitable undertaking even when it paid most absurdly low wages and worked its employees the longest possible hours. Now the transport is being shared by a whole fleet of private motor buses, and this Bill proposes to add to that motor competition on the road. I agree it is an equitable measure to give them an opportunity of engaging in the new form of transport, and is a protection to the community to the extent that the routes must be approved by the Minister; the routes and fares must be fixed, and they cannot be changed except with the approval of the Minister. The motor services must also be run and cannot be withdrawn without permission.

I think it would be a desirable development if transport generally were controlled in that way, because at present there is no standardisation whatever of charges and no assurance that certain services would be changed and no regulations governing the cleanliness of passenger buses, or any of the other regulations considered necessary where railways are involved for the safety and clean transit of the travelling public. To that extent the few buses that the railway company will run will be an improvement on the other forms of transport, but it will only deal with the outside fringe of this big subject, and it is lamentable that the Government could not see its way to go into the whole question of inland transport, and then introduce a comprehensive measure instead of allowing a whole period of vested interests to grow, and then to bring in legislation which will be hampered to the extent that these people will be claiming compensation if there is any limitation of services by restriction of routes. The sooner we have a comprehensive measure the better for the country and its industry.

When the Minister is making a general statement would he say what is his objection to allowing railways to operate as freely as private owners? I cannot see the reason for those close restrictions on railway companies. If they pay the ordinary taxes, and heavy duties on the lorries, why should they not be allowed to operate and compete? I shudder to think of what is to happen if the last speaker's views are put into operation. We are to have another big Department brought under the State. We will have regulated forms and all that terrible restriction. Of course in time we might get immune by the result of steady inoculation and we may be able to resist the dangerous process.

With regard to what Senator O'Farrell said, I have already admitted some more comprehensive measures dealing with transport in all its phases would have to be looked forward to, and we are taking steps to get detailed consideration given to the transport problem generally, so that a measure may be introduced. I can never understand the point of view that what is an injustice should be allowed to continue simply because a particular problem cannot be dealt with in its greatest details. Senator O'Farrell referred to a measure introduced in the other House by the Labour Party. There was not sufficient data in it on which a proper measure could be founded. That is the position at the moment. It is only when this Bill has been in operation for some time and we have seen the services run under ordinary conditions with accounts properly kept, with depreciation and everything attended to that we shall have the material upon which to get a proper estimate of the respective merits of road services and railway services.

Senator Sir John Keane asked me as to the necessity of the restrictions. The restrictions can be abolished by this House if it thinks fit.

All I set out to do was this: To see that the disability which prevented the railway company from operating on the roads should be removed and removed as speedily as possible. In contradistinction the other side had to be looked at, and what presented itself to me was that the railway company should not be allowed to enter into such injudicious competition as would affect the railway revenue and consequently have the effect of increasing by application to the Railway Tribunal the charges which the railway company can make. That was the duty I had to perform more or less in carrying out the Railway Act of 1924. On that process the simple consideration was: Was one going to permit a big corporation like a railway company, free from all restrictions, so to operate that it could drive out every other competitor on the roads, and having driven out every competitor along certain routes, then to withdraw its services forthwith. There are certain restrictions in the Bill intended to guard against the railway company's using its better convenience and better facilities with regard to agents and arrangements of their time-tables so as to wipe out competitors along certain routes, and having done away with that competition, then to withdraw their own service. If it is the desire of the House and if it thinks these restrictions are unduly oppressive, we can have amendments in Committee to take away or to lessen these hardships if it is believed that there are any hardships. The Bill as put forward at the moment is the best attempt that can be made by a Government Department to see that the public will get the best service possible from a combination of rail and road and to protect the railway service and the public generally against increased railway charges, and also to ensure whatever be the best form of transport, whether alone by the railway company or with a private company, should be allowed to continue. We should not enable the overwhelming resources of the railway company, in relation to others operating, to remove their competition so that the public would be no better off.

I would like to say one or two words in regard to the remarks of Senator Sir John Keane. He is always ready to claim free trade for capital without any interference from anybody outside. Of course, we all understand there must be a certain amount of freedom and liberty for everybody but we also know that the laws of the land are passed to put restrictions upon certain people so as not to give them licence instead of liberty. Senator Sir John Keane when he speaks about the free play for capital seems to forget the important fact that in other countries as well as this the State has to step in to make regulations for the guidance of the subject whether capitalist or working class people. Sir Eric Geddes who is said to be the greatest exponent of capital that we ever had in these islands and the gentleman who has been promoted to be the Chairman of one of the greatest industrial companies in England to save it from disaster and who was Minister for Transport in the Coalition Government in Great Britain in 1919, said in the British House of Commons, on a certain day, dealing with the question of transport something like this:—

"We have realised, perhaps, in the last year or two that without a go-ahead system, a vitalizing system of transportation, the health and housing of the people, agricultural development, settlement of the land, and the industrial development of the country cannot possibly be achieved... The Government has come to the conclusion that some measure of unified control of all systems of transportation is necessary, that there must be somebody who can be asked what the transportation policy of the country is, and whose responsibility it is to have a policy. There is none to-day, and it is only the State, the Government, that can centrally take that position."

A couple of years after Sir Eric Geddes introduced and carried the Amalgamation Bill of the British railways. In every well-organised community it is necessary for the State to protect the general interests of the people and in this country that is what has been done as far as the railways are concerned. As far as I can understand the principle of this Bill the Minister is endeavouring to give fair play to the railway company while at the same time safeguarding the position of its competitors.

Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered for Third Stage.
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