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Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 20 May 1927

Vol. 8 No. 32

ELECTRICITY (SUPPLY) BILL, 1927—REPORT STAGE (RESUMED).

CATHAOIRLEACH

We have on the Order Paper both the proposals of Senators and the counter proposals of the Minister.

SECTION 59.

Government amendment — Sub-section (6). Before sub-section (6) to insert two new sub-sections as follows:—

(6) Every scale made by the Board fixing the methods of charge and the rates of charge for electricity by a local authority which is an authorised undertaker shall be made and from time to time revised by the Board, so that, as far as is reasonably practicable, no contribution from any rate made by such local authority shall be required for the purpose of defraying any expenses which such local authority may incur, whether under this Act or otherwise, in respect of the authorised undertaking of such local authority.

(7) The Board shall not make any scale fixing the methods of charge and the rates of charge for electricity by a local authority which is an authorised undertaker whereby the charge for electricity used by such local authority for lighting purposes shall be fixed at a rate which is higher than the rate fixed for consumers using electricity for lighting purposes and for the like hours of supply.

I said I would agree to the principle of Senator Dowdall's amendment. The amendment, however, provides for reconsideration of rates of charge by local authorities "at the expiration of each financial year of such local authority." The accounts of an electrical undertaking under a municipal authority are not made up until some months of the new financial year have elapsed. The effect would be that the new rate would not, in fact, come in until the subsequent year. To meet that difficulty, I have tabled an amendment. The effect is to cut out that rigid time limit and leave the rates to be revised from time to time by the Board.

I should prefer that the revision take place at the end of the financial year, but the Minister has assured us that there is a difficulty in doing that. Nevertheless, I think it could be done, and would make for the better financing of the Minister's undertaking. On the whole, I think the Seanad should accept the Government amendment.

Amendment agreed to.
SECTION 104.

CATHAOIRLEACH

The Government amendment, which is alternative to that of Senator Sir John Griffith ("To delete Section 104"), is as follows:—

To delete the section and to substitute the following new section therefor:—

104.—(1) The Executive Council may by order transfer from the Minister or the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland (in this section referred to as the Commissioners) respectively to the Board all or any of the functions, powers, and duties conferred or imposed by or under any statute on the Minister or the Commissioners (as the case may be) in relation to the care or conservancy of the navigation or the drainage of the River Shannon or any tributary thereof or of works constructed for the improvement of such navigation or drainage, and any such order may transfer all or any of such functions, powers, and duties in relation either to the whole or to any particular parts or part of the said river or any tributary thereof.

(2) Where by reason of the existence of the Shannon works it is impracticable for the Commissioners to exercise the functions and powers or perform the duties conferred or imposed on them by any such statute as aforesaid in accordance with the provisions of such statute the Commissioners shall exercise such functions and powers and perform such duties as nearly as may be practicable, having regard to the existence of the said works, in accordance with the provisions of such statute, and upon an order being made by the Executive Council under this section transferring all or any of such functions, powers and duties to the Board, the Board shall exercise the functions and powers and perform the duties to which such order relates as nearly as may be practicable, having regard to the existence of the said works, in accordance with the provisions of such statute.

(3) Whenever any functions, powers, or duties are transferred to the Board by an order under this section the Executive Council may by the same or any subsequent order authorise and require the Board to exercise and perform all or any of such functions, powers, and duties in relation to all or any of the canals, locks, wharves, piers, landing places, quays, or other works constructed by the Minister under the Shannon Electricity Act, 1925 (No. 26 of 1925), and upon such order being made the works to which such order relates shall be deemed to be included in the works in relation to which such functions, powers, and duties are exercisable by virtue of the statute by which the same were created and such statute (with such modifications, if any, as are specified in such order) shall be construed and have effect accordingly.

(4) Whenever any functions, powers, or duties are transferred from the Commissioners to the Board by an order under this section the Executive Council may by the same or any subsequent order transfer to and vest in the Board all or any of the locks, lock-houses, eel-weirs, or other property which immediately before the date of such order were vested in the Commissioners and were used by them either for the purpose of or in connection with the exercise or performance of the functions, powers, or duties, so transferred or for the purpose of providing revenue for the exercise or performance of such functions, powers, or duties.

(5) Whenever any functions, powers, or duties are transferred from the Commissioners to the Board by an order under this section the Executive Council may by the same or any subsequent order transfer from the services of the Commissioners to the service of the Board any person employed by the Commissioners in relation to or for the purpose of the exercise or performance of such functions, powers, or duties, and every person so transferred shall thereupon become and be a servant of the Board upon the same terms as to remuneration and superannuation, pension, or gratuity (if any) as those on which he was employed by the Commissioners immediately before such transfer and shall for the purpose of such superannuation, pension or gratuity (if any) be entitled to reckon his period of service with the Commissioners as service with the Board.

(6) Whenever any functions, powers, or duties are transferred from the Commissioners to the Board by an order under this section the Executive Council may by the same or any subsequent order impose on the Board the obligation to pay as from the date of such order any pension which at the date of such order is payable by the Commissioners to a person formerly employed by the Commissioners in relation to or for the purpose of the exercise or performance of such functions, powers, and duties, and thereupon the Board shall become and be liable to indemnify the Commissioners against all and every liability in respect of such pension as from the date of such order.

(7) An order made by the Executive Council under this section transferring any functions, powers or duties from the Commissioners to the Board may be expressed and if so expressed shall operate to require the Board to keep a separate account in relation to the exercise by it of the functions and powers and the performance by it of the duties to which such order relates and may be expressed and if so expressed shall operate to require that the functions, powers and duties to which such order relates be exercised and performed by officers and servants of the Board employed by it solely in relation to such functions, powers and duties.

(8) No order made under this section shall come into operation until it has been laid before each House of the Oireachtas, and has been approved by resolution of each such House.

Senators will note that sub-section (8) provides for a positive resolution of approval by each House instead of the former provision whereby orders would be laid before each House, the House having power to annul the order within 21 days.

This amendment goes a long way to meet my view but I should prefer to have my own method adopted.

Amendment agreed to.
New section ordered to be there inserted.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be received for final consideration and do now pass."

As one who has taken an active part in opposing this Bill, I desire to say that I have no complaint to make as to the tone and temper of the debate, though certain epithets directed against me would suggest that my opposition is not genuine but is actuated by an unnational spirit. These remarks were made because of the suggestion that the scheme should cease to be a Government scheme. The Government have told us that they had four offers from private undertakings to lease the scheme. The House can judge whether in view of those facts my opposition to the Second Reading was based on unworthy motives.

Yesterday, Senator Kenny suggested that certain interests were out to pile all possible charges on to this undertaking for the purpose of making it a failure and that those interests desired to see the scheme a failure. That suggestion was made after the proposal had been discussed that this scheme should pay its fair share of rates and should not receive a subsidy from the ratepayers. I leave the House to judge whether in that case my motives were reckless or unnational. I make this plea purely in the interests of independent thought in public life. Some of us may not see eye to eye with others. But there is a right to independent criticism. I think that is a right which should be preserved both in the interests of the Government and in the interests of the dignity of Parliamentary life. I have no desire to see this scheme a failure. I have every desire to see it a success, provided it is carried out with due regard for established Parliamentary practice and for the canons of sound finance. That is where my doubt lies and that is why my opposition has been offered.

CATHAOIRLEACH

No Senator questions the honesty or sincerity of Senator Sir John Keane.

I think Senator Sir John Keane's contributions to the debate were valuable. It is desirable to have differences of opinion, from time to time, on a matter which is of such vast importance as the Shannon scheme. I think the Government and the Minister are to be congratulated on the way the matter has been handled. Notwithstanding that this was, in the first instance, in the opinion of some people, a jump in the dark, the whole country will fall into line with the remarks that fell from Senator Jameson earlier in the debate. The Senator said that we were all now committed to the scheme, and that we should all stand unitedly together and try to make it a success.

The grievances that were trotted out in the earlier part of the discussion seemed to centre around the loss that the ratepayers of Dublin and neighbourhood would suffer by reason of the scheme. Might I remind the House that vast changes have taken place in what was formerly known as "dear dirty Dublin"—a place that we all have the greatest affection for, for many reasons. I think the Government have no reason to be criticised for their treatment of this handsome city which we all revere so much. Their attitude towards the city during the few years that they have been functioning has been admirable.

CATHAOIRLEACH

Does the Senator mean their attitude on the subject of electricity?

Electricity amongst other things.

CATHAOIRLEACH

The Senator must confine himself to electricity.

I am leading up to that. It has been suggested that the Dublin ratepayers were not fairly treated under this scheme. The policy of the Government has been a policy of centralisation on a very large scale.

Amongst the other services that have been moved up here are the law courts. We know that the law courts are functioning in Dublin now to a larger extent than ever before. We are aware that that involves the bringing up to Dublin of numerous witnesses, counsel, etc. The City of Dublin has largely profited thereby. Other bodies, ecclesiastical and otherwise, are looking to Dublin more than ever as the capital of the country, and these bodies are composed of people from the extreme north to the south. I think, at any rate, that all of us should find great satisfaction in the fact that this great power from the Shannon electrification will ultimately revolutionise things to a very great extent in this country. That power will be derived from that mighty river in the west, so often alluded to in song and story by patriot and poet:—

"Whence onward to the ocean

The stately Shannon flows."

I wish to disabuse the minds of Senators of any impressions they may have formed that I had cast any reflections on any Senator because of any criticisms made by him on the Bill before us. I entirely disclaim any intention of that sort. I was, however, concerned with the impression that was abroad in the minds of some of the general public. It is only in that connection that I used the remarks which I now find were wrongly construed. On the main question of this scheme as a whole there can be no two opinions as to the absolute soundness of judgement and the great courage of those who first conceived this scheme and afterwards carried it into effect. Mr. L.J. Kettle, who is Chairman of the Institute of Engineers, in an address a few years ago to that body, made use of these expressions, or, rather, I should say, gave it as his considered view to the members:—That "electricity supply was not an industry, It is far more. It is the life-blood of every industry—cheap and abundant power." Further on in his address he said that "nationalisation is only an extended form of municipalisation." Now, the attitude of the Government in the early stages of this scheme, in holding up other schemes that were in course of projection, the Anna Liffey and other schemes, was, I think, absolutely correct. If vested interests were created in that way it would make the task of the Government more difficult, and the cost of setting the matter right would eventually fall upon the taxpayers. This would militate against the one desideratum of the country— cheap power and an abundant supply of power—a guaranteed continuous supply. This can only be guaranteed in its continuity when the source is continuous, and we know that the River Shannon will flow, I suppose, eternally.

Any other form of power, power derived from coal or any other source, is fitful power. There is no guarantee of its continuity in its widest sense. I therefore think that though it may have been harsh at the time to the other syndicates, the Government was quite justified in holding up those other schemes that were initiated by enterprising and patriotic men who were disposed to risk their capital and give their energy and experience in the development of hydro-electric power throughout the Saorstát. It was unfortunate that they laboured under a sense of grievance at the action of the Government at the time. The main object in view was the provision of cheap power for the whole country, and anyone who examines the matter carefully must come to the conclusion that the electrification of the Shannon was the best thing the Government could have done at the time. I hope the ultimate results will confirm that view. There is no wrong going to be perpetrated with regard to the position of the employees of any association or undertaking producing electricity hitherto. All their rights are assured, their position and their prospects are very considerably improved because of the consequent enlargement of this electric business which will, of course, mean increased employment all round. I do not think there will be any disturbance of the personnel of the employees in the Dublin area. Certainly we may reasonably look forward to a very considerable expansion in electric development in and around Dublin. It seems pretty certain that when this transformer from the Shannon is set up here it will have three times the supply capacity of the present undertakings in Dublin.

The Government were wise in projecting this scheme, because it is the very thing that is needed to develop our manufacturing arm. The Government are right also in what they are doing for technical education in order to fit the people to use this great power from the Shannon. The Minister for Education is doing his best to equip the youth of this country so as to have them prepared for the time when beneficial results will flow from the Shannon scheme. In order to ensure that these beneficial results will flow from it, the Minister for Education is working to equip the youth of the country with technical skill. That is the aim of our technical system now. Education in technical matters was neglected in the past. In a technical way, I suppose, we are the most untrained population in Europe and the most unfitted technically. Now, when this Shannon scheme is completed we must, perforce, introduce from other countries technically-skilled people unless we have them trained ourselves at home. The Minister for Education and the Government appreciate that fact, and education is now being directed more than ever towards the development of technical training. I certainly will give my support, as I have always given it, to the Shannon scheme.

As one of those who wishes the scheme to be a success, and who supported it in its general principle from the beginning, I cannot give the Bill as it stands the unmitigated lavish blessing that Senator Kenny has given it. I have to make a very solemn and final protest against the failure of the Government to accept a fair wages clause in the Bill. It is, perhaps, a fitting act of a dying Government, at the end of what has been an important session, to refuse to concede the right of the workman to his hire. We only rejoice in schemes of this kind because they help to give the community more of the world's good things, because they enable the people as a whole to have a better standard of living. The Government think that is quite a good object so long as it does not extend, and this principle is not conceded as far as the ordinary workers are concerned. Everything else that the new Board will procure in the way of raw material, manufactured articles, etc., they will pay for at the commercial market price, and similarly in regard to foreign labour. The one commodity they are not prepared to extend that principle to is the human commodity in the Saorstát, for the benefit of which this scheme was originally projected.

Those who praise the scheme lavishly and, at the same time, vote as Senator Kenny has done against giving a fair wage to the men who are working the scheme, are not sincere, and the country will judge of their sincerity. We deplore the action of the Government in this matter because it is an indication to everybody of the Government's mentality in regard to the future of this country. It shows an absolute lack of confidence in the capacity of the people to do anything except under what would amount to conditions of white slavery. A good deal of talk has gone on about emigration and the necessity, if possible, of providing employment at home. The sort of employment the Government propose to give is not calculated to retain a single spirited young man or woman. Thirty-two shillings a week! The policy enunciated at the beginning of this scheme in regard to wage-earners is evidently to be continued, and the result will be that we will have only the wasters and the inefficient people retained at home and the best of our young people will emigrate.

Some people are always slobbering about dead patriots, while those who are living are starving. We believe in giving fairly decent living conditions to people when they are alive instead of erecting monuments to them when they are dead. This is a scheme which we expected would help us to carry out that policy, but evidently the intention is merely to establish an oriental standard of civilisation in this new State. We deplore any such intention. We hope that as a result of a change of mind on the part of the present Government, or for that matter a change of Government, a better and more prosperous outlook will prevail, so that we may be able to build up that nation which a great many people seem to visualise.

Question—"That the Bill be received for Final Consideration and do now pass"—put and agreed to.

CATHAOIRLEACH

It will be necessary for the House to meet at 7 o'clock. Then there will be a motion which we will be asked to adopt. Under the Constitution, no suspension of the session of both Houses can be passed affecting the Seanad session except with the Seanad's own consent. Consequently, when the Dáil to-day will agree, as I understand they will, to bring their own session to a close, it will be necessary, in order that that should be adopted by this House, that we pass a consenting resolution. That is required by the Constitution.

The Seanad adjourned at 1 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m., the

CATHAOIRLEACH

in the Chair.

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