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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Mar 1928

Vol. 10 No. 8

JOINT COMMITTEE ON SEANAD. - SAORSTAT MEAT IMPORTS.

I move:—

"That in the opinion of the Seanad the Minister for Lands and Agriculture should make an Order under the Diseases of Animals Acts prohibiting the importation of all fresh, chilled, frozen, pickled or cured meats from any country in which outbreaks of foot and mouth disease are known to exist and in which the policy of eradication of the disease by means of slaughter is not adopted."

When the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease which occurred in Wexford was confirmed it created consternation amongst the cattle trade, the farmers, and, I might say, the whole community. Every thinking man can visualise the disastrous effect it would have on the country if it spread. I wish to congratulate the Minister for Lands and Agriculture and his staff on the very able manner in which they handled the outbreak; on the wise precautions they took, and on the success of their efforts to stamp out the disease. On behalf of the cattle trade, I want to say that we feel very grateful to the British Ministry for opening the ports so quickly. Thousands of tons of freshly-cured meat are imported into the Saorstát from practically every country in the world. According to the statistics, the average quantity yearly is about 450,000 tons. Most of the chilled and frozen beef comes from the Argentine, but we get pork and pigs' heads from all parts of Europe, from the United States, Canada, Argentine, Denmark, Poland, the Ukraine, Latvia, Sweden, Brazil, Russia and China. Most of these countries are never free from foot-and-mouth disease, and I cannot see why we should allow meat to come into the Free State from them when we have here available plenty of the best meat in the world. The experts agree that foot-and-mouth disease is transmitted through the carcases of these infected animals, it can be transmitted through the covering which comes on meat imported from those countries, and it is now admitted that the virus of foot-and-mouth disease will stay alive in the marrow of the bones of infected animals for a considerable time. It is with a view to these considerations that I move this motion. I do not know if the Seanad desires to discuss it from the point of view of protection or free trade but I want to have it discussed from the point of view of the importance of preserving a clean bill of health for our live stock, and on those grounds I ask support for the motion.

I desire to second the motion, and wish to point out that in some respects the cattle traders themselves are to blame for the present position. I asked an important member of the cattle trade whether there was any body interested in that trade which was in a position to advertise the merits of Irish meat. He told me that there was not. I want to urge the necessity of advertising abroad by what is now called a slogan the quality of Irish meat. Such a slogan might be to the effect that people should eat as little preserved meat as possible. If we had such a slogan it would, in my opinion, do much for the sale of Irish meat. A slogan I would suggest would be "Don't eat carrion." It is to the advantage of the Irish cattle trade to see that decomposed meat is not eaten. When one goes to an hotel in Ireland one may have to eat frozen meat from Buenos Aires, and one cannot get fresh meat except one selects it oneself in the kitchen, but even then there may be a danger of its being chilled abroad. I know nothing about foot and mouth disease, but I understand that the recent outbreak was due rather to foot than to mouth disease. There would be great danger to the development of our cattle trade if England were to shut her ports to us merely on suspicion that there was foot and mouth disease in Ireland, but there would be no such danger if it could be proved that such disease occurred owing to the importation of chilled or frozen meat from abroad. Irish meat should be eaten in this country. Salmon caught in Galway has to go to England and come back here again, and so on, but that should not be the case with Irish cattle. I would like the Irish cattle trade to be in a position to shut out the importation of frozen meat if it were proved to be a source of contagion, but we should put our own meat in a superior position on the market. The English people are a nation of valetudinarians, but there is not sufficient nutriment in their food, which seems to consist mainly of chilled meat.

I rise to support the motion. One shudders to think what might have happened in this country in the last few weeks if the Ministry of Agriculture had not taken steps to prevent the spread of the disease, which would have held up the basic industry of the entire country. It is common knowledge that the virus of that disease exists in the marrow of chilled meat. That being so, I think the Minister should take steps to see that the disease shall not arise through the importation of such chilled meat. Apart altogether from the statement of Senator Gogarty, I am more concerned with the health of our flocks. We have had a clean bill of health in this country from year to year. There has been practically no serious outbreak in this country for fifty or sixty years. There were one or two outbreaks but they were dealt with drastically and completely cleared out. England, on the other hand, has had to deal with the problem frequently, but the difficulty there is that they are importing into that country enormous quantities of chilled meat from a country which makes no effort to eliminate the disease by the slaughter of animals affected. Lord Bledisloe went to Buenos Aires recently to investigate the position in regard to the flocks and herds there, and one may imagine, without any great flight of imagination, that somebody in his Department in England was beginning to feel that there is grave danger of the disease being carried through chilled meat carcases. If there is a real live danger of that, I think it is up to us to protect the main industry on which the country depends, and take all reasonable precautions and in fact err on the side of extreme caution against the spread of such disease. I have pleasure in supporting the resolution, because I think its adoption would make for the reasonable certainty that our flocks would remain as immune in the future as they have been in the past from such disease.

I support the motion, and I think that sufficient arguments have been already adduced to show that the opinion of the Seanad is in favour of stopping every possible means by which the disease could be introduced into this country. At present that source of infection is not interfered with in any way. I dare say that the mover of the resolution is aware that a report has been already published by the British Department of Agriculture of a Research Committee which inquired into the origin of foot and mouth disease, and I have no doubt that the Minister for Agriculture has that report in his possession. All the suggestions made by Senator Counihan are borne out by that report. I think we are incurring considerable risk by continuing our practice of not interfering with the import of meat not free from disease, whether chilled or frozen, from countries where we know that steps are not taken to eliminate such disease. There are packages which cannot be separated from the carcases and which we know have been one of the causes of the introduction of foot and mouth disease in England. Therefore, the introduction to this country of all possible sources of infection ought to be prohibited. If such packages are not sterilised the disease may be introduced to this country. In England warning has been given of the dangers of cattle from the Argentine being infected in the marrow with foot and mouth disease. Yet they have taken no steps in the matter. We are not bound to follow England's lead in that direction, and it is up to us to take proper steps to protect our herds from infection.

I have great pleasure in supporting the motion. I have the privilege of being probably the oldest member of the cattle trade, and I know a good deal about foot and mouth disease. As a boy, fifty-five years ago, I remember when foot and mouth disease was discovered in Ireland and when no steps were taken to prevent it. I saw hundreds of such cases, and I attended cattle suffering from it, but I never saw a death occurring. Cattle got the disease mostly in summer, but after about three weeks they got well again and made up for their loss in condition. Then a change came in the laws in England for dealing with it, and it was regarded as coming within the Diseases of Animals Act, and the Government there tried to prevent the disease spreading to England or Ireland. Certain of these regulations have, to a great extent, been successful in preventing the disease, but in parts of the Continent they have not taken steps to prevent it, and it is always there. Many years ago there was an outbreak in the Curragh, but it was traced to the place of a farmer who had a contract for the officers' mess at the Curragh, and it was traced to Burgundy boxes that came from France. We put up a case to the Board of Agriculture asking that steps should be taken to prevent such imports being allowed into the country, but the attitude was taken that it would be a serious thing to interfere with the wine industry of France, and that the cattle trade was only a secondary consideration. After some time the Board of Agriculture, in the light of its experience, put an embargo on such foreign packages coming into this country. The manner in which England has dealt with this problem has not been satisfactory. Since 1918 England has paid for cattle slaughtered owing to this disease £5,186,833, a very expensive item from the ratepayers' point of view. £877,000 was paid in compensation for cattle slaughtered in scheduled areas in England. When we come to deal with Ireland, I am glad to be able to congratulate the Minister for Agriculture and the Department upon the effective steps they have taken in stamping out the disease.

Anything that helps to keep our livestock free from this contagious disease is a matter of importance affecting the whole country. We have had experience of how a stand-still order affects the trade. It is not a sensible thing to allow a recurrence of it. With regard to the transmission of disease from foreign countries, there is no question about the disease being carried in a most mysterious manner. Notwithstanding researches made, and all the efforts of veterinary science, it has not been definitely discovered how this disease is spread. In my opinion England has not been alive to the magnitude of the danger in connection with this disease. There is a certain feeling that a good deal of our interest in this matter is concerned with raising the price of cattle and increasing the cost of living. Anything that would interfere with the supply of food to the people of England is looked upon as a kind of indirect protection. It is nothing of the sort. We are anxious to have a clean bill of health for our country, and to keep up the fame of our cattle. This country has been more or less libelled with regard to foot and mouth disease. Certain people in England went so far as to say that we had the disease in Ireland and would not admit it, and that the country was full of it all the time. Our Government asked the people who made those aspersions to withdraw them. The action taken by the Department of Agriculture and its veterinary branch to stamp out this disease is the greatest possible testimonial to their ability in freeing the country from it. I think the principle underlying the motion ought to be acceptable to the Board of Agriculture in Northern Ireland and to the English Board. It is all to their interest that the health of our cattle should be maintained and protected.

I am as anxious as any of the previous speakers for the maintenance of a clean bill of health for our cattle, but we should face the facts as we find them. The position is that there was an outbreak of foot and mouth disease in Wexford. The methods employed for its eradication were quite scientific and very effective. There was no panic among the farmers whose cattle were affected with the disease, no panic amongst the farmers in the locality, and very little panic amongst the farmers in the county. The methods employed by the Department, from the Minister down, succeeded absolutely. Now when that outbreak has been countered and its spread prevented I think we should be slow to indulge in any panicky legislation. There can be only one justification for shutting out the imports of chilled or frozen meat, and that is if the disease is traceable in any degree to the imports of these commodities. If it is so traced let us by all manner of means introduce such legislation. I am waiting for even a slender proof that the outbreak is traceable to this cause. I am anxious to have the opinion of the Minister and those associated with him on this matter. If, as I have said, it can be proved that the outbreak is in any degree due to the import of these commodities, then let us take such action as will maintain a clean bill of health, but if it is not proved, if there is not even some slender proof advanced to establish the contention, then let us not attempt to introduce any panicky legislation and not alter the fundamental lines of economic thought which I think ought to be pursued.

I agree with Senator Counihan that a question like this should be considered purely and simply from the point of view of its merits, and not with reference to the outbreak that has occurred. Above all, there should be no attempt to alter the regulations in regard to the Diseases of Animals Act. I assume the motion is directed against the Argentine beef, or chilled or frozen beef from any country from which pig products are imported. The motion refers to cured meat. That might refer to the American meat, of which £16,000 worth of frozen beef is imported.

No; in America they adopt the policy of slaughtering the cattle.

All that is involved is about £16,000 worth of frozen beef. We import about £1,600,000 worth of bacon and about £100,000 worth of pig products. Commercially, it does not matter what we do about that, so we are in the happy position of discussing the question in the abstract on its merits and not as a commercial problem. There was an outbreak in Wexford. I do not know how it originated, and nobody knows. Any theories of mine would be the merest conjecture, and for that reason I do not want to give them. Regarding the question as to whether the outbreak in Wexford was due to imported chilled meat, I cannot say, and nobody could. On the question as to whether the outbreak might have been caused by imported meat, we have the advantage of the researches of the English Foot and Mouth Research Committee. I will read an extract from their report:—"One sample of bone marrow from a beef carcase kept at freezing temperature infected an ox by inoculation after 76 days. A similar positive result was obtained after 42 days with marrow as a long bone from a beef carcase kept at chilling temperature. In a bacon carcase kept at freezing temperature a bone marrow was still ineffective for a pig by inoculation after 43 days, and the crushed bone affected two pigs by feeding."

So far as the investigation of this Committee points towards anything it points to the conclusion that there is a real danger the disease can be carried by frozen or chilled meat. I think they have established that the germ itself at a low temperature did well. The Report no more than points out that chilled or frozen meat may be an ideal medium for carrying the germ. We cannot afford to overlook the researches of that Committee, and we have been considering them. On the question as to whether we ought to have protection, not because we can trace the disease to any imported meat, but in order to stop the class of imports I have mentioned that amount in value to about £120,000 per annum— that is to say, they are of no commercial value—we have not come to any definite conclusion on that question. We are considering it and we propose to continue these considerations. I am glad to have the views of the Senate on the question at this juncture.

I must congratulate the Minister for Lands and Agriculture and his Department on having stopped an outbreak of the foot-and-mouth disease that might have ruined the country. I would like to say that a great quantity of bacon is imported from the Baltic ports, and sold in this country as Irish bacon. I notice that the bacon in various parts of the country is bad and many people object to it. The bacon in my own house was bad, and when I made inquiries I found that excellent Irish bacon could be got. Owing to this bad bacon being sold as Irish our bacon got a bad reputation.

Is not that another question? Foreign bacon sold as Irish is a matter that could be dealt with under the Merchandise Acts.

CATHAOIRLEACH

In view of the Minister's assurance, are you satisfied, Senator Counihan?

In view of what the Minister has said, and having regard to the views put forward, I beg leave to withdraw the motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

A great many people have been speaking to me on this matter, and I would be very anxious to get an assurance from the Minister that there would be a strict inquiry by his Department into the circumstances of the outbreak in Wexford.

I am afraid it would not lead to anything.

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