Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 May 1928

Vol. 10 No. 14

PUBLIC BUSINESS. - BODIES CORPORATE (EXECUTORS AND ADMINISTRATORS) BILL, 1928—REPORT STAGE (RESUMED).

I move:—

1. Section 2, sub-section (2). To add at the end of the sub-section the words "including the obligation to give such security as would be required from an individual."

This amendment is brought forward at the instance of the Incorporated Law Society, which has given this Bill very special attention. I understand they set up a Select Committee to consider its provisions. It will be within the recollection of the House that the Cathaoirleach told us on the last day that the President of the Incorporated Law Society regarded the matter of sufficient importance to have an interview with him. At your suggestion, sir, the matter was postponed from our last sitting. I do not think there could be very much objection to the amendment I have moved, because, as most people know, in the case of a grant of administration security is invariably required by the court in the shape of a bond or bonds. The Bill, as it now stands, embraces not only executorships but administrators.

The amendment is only for administrators.

It could only be.

It only seeks to put a body corporate applying for administration in the same position as an individual, namely, that they must give security. Senator Douglas all along has emphasised the point that the object of this Bill is to place corporations, if they have the power under their Articles, in the same position as individuals. I do not know am I assuming too much, but I am inclined to hope that Senator Douglas will see no objection to this amendment.

As far as I am concerned I have no objection to what the amendment endeavours to do. It is a matter, I am afraid, as between the best legal opinion I can get and the legal opinion Senator Brady has. I am informed by the draftsman that it is quite unnecessary, and a silly thing to add. That is what I am told. With regard to "the obligation to give such security as would be required from an individual" I believe the court has power to waive that if it thinks it unnecessary. It is only done in very few cases. Under the existing law corporate bodies can act as administrators, and even under this Bill, so it is a matter for the House to say whether it ought to put in this amendment. It is an unwise thing to do. There is no difference in principle between me and Senator Brady.

I object very much to this amendment because it is wholly unnecessary and it makes a very inartistic section. I do not see why the House should accept an amendment of this kind in it. There are two cases in which a body corporate can get a grant of administration. One is where a body corporate is a creditor of the deceased. In that case the settled practice is that the body corporate would have to give security. It would have to go to the court and get leave to take out a grant without having securities for its bonds. The only other case in which a body corporate can become an administrator is under Section 1, which gives the court the right in special circumstances to appoint someone. In the ordinary course you have to go to a court, to begin with, to get the appointment of an administrator. Therefore, this amendment is wholly unnecessary.

CATHAOIRLEACH

If you look at the words "subject to the same rights and duties" of course duty there does not mean duty in the sense of the words of the text.

That was put in on the Report Stage.

The Bill would be better without these words.

With every member of the House, I have the profoundest respect for Senator Brown's legal opinion, but, on the other hand, the House will appreciate the position I am in. The Incorporated Law Society holds a strong view about this amendment and its desirability. I gave the assurance that I would move it, and get a decision on the matter. While it may be inartistic and superfluous, I submit that it will not do any harm.

CATHAOIRLEACH

What you suggest is that the amendment would put the matter beyond all doubt.

There never was any doubt.

Some people apparently have a doubt.

There is discretion given the court under the Probate Act to relieve them of this liability.

CATHAOIRLEACH

There is an obligation at present on the individual, but that obligation can be relieved of by the court. I am quite certain that the addition of these words will not prevent the court relieving in the same way a corporate body from the obligation. It is only transferring to the corporate body the same obligation as is now on the individual, and the obligation now on the individual can be relaxed by the court. I have little doubt whatever that after sufficient consideration it will be held that the same power remains in the court. That obligation can be relaxed in the case of an individual, and, therefore, can be relaxed in the case of a company.

This application to the court will increase the cost of the proceedings.

CATHAOIRLEACH

At present every administrator prima facie has to give security. There is power reserved to the courts to dispense with it. They seldom exercise it, but they have power in special cases to dispense with it. That is not got rid of under this Bill. In my opinion, the adoption of this amendment would still enable the court in special cases where it thought fit to relieve them from the obligations to give security, but in that case it would simply be putting the law where it is at present. It is not a question of expense at all; it does not add to the expense. The only thing is whether, if the House is inclined to adopt this amendment, it would think it necessary to add the words, “save in such cases as the court may dispense with same,” but I do not think it is necessary.

It is suggested that the whole amendment is not necessary, so that, as far as I am concerned, I quite agree to have the words suggested added to my amendment.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I had better put it as it is.

Amendment put, and declared lost.

I move:—

To add at the end of the section a new sub-section as follows:—

"(2) In this Act the expression ‘body corporate' means and includes only a body corporate having a capital for the time being of not less than £50,000 of which not less than £20,000 shall have been paid up in cash."

In this, too, I am acting on very eminent legal advice. As you, sir, stated this day fortnight, it is feared that this Bill might be abused by persons who would avail themselves of it to promote what is popularly known as a bogus company, for which purpose under the Act of 1908 two or three people would be sufficient, and they could advertise to the public that they were prepared to undertake the duties of executors and administrators. No doubt, it will be said that it is for the intending testator to look out for himself and that he is unlikely to select a person, or persons, or a corporation which would not faithfully carry out the duties and trusts imposed upon them. But, on the other hand, here as elsewhere, a great many innocent people—and there are more innocent people in this country than elsewhere— are very largely influenced by advertisements, and if they saw an advertisement suggesting that the duties of an executor could be discharged by a company, that that would mean perpetual succession and that a person's property would be looked after for ever, as compared with an individual or individuals, who would die some time, a man might be attracted to entrust the administration of his affairs to such a company. Again I am bound to tell the House that the Incorporated Law Society, through its special committee, gave a great deal of attention to this matter— and the President had the privilege of an interview with you, sir—and they are very strongly of opinion that there should be a certain amount of capital in the case of such a company. I understand that the English Act makes such a provision, and there is a further analogy to be drawn in support of the amendment, inasmuch as if any insurance company wants to start business in the Free State it has to lodge a very large sum of money—£20,000, or there-abouts—as security. I do not see any reason why a body corporate, seeking to exercise the powers conferred under this Bill, should not be asked to give equal security in the shape of paid-up capital. It would present no difficulty in the case of those institutions which Senator Douglas has in mind; their capital is assured and known, and if they undertake the duties under this Bill the persons who take advantage of the Bill will be fully secured. But it is unquestionably possible that a bogus company could be started, seeking to exercise the powers conferred by this Bill, and I think that it is not at all unreasonable that a provision should be inserted fixing the amount of the paid-up capital of such a corporation.

How long is it to remain paid up?

I should like to say at once that if the House likes to confine this Bill to large companies, as suggested by the amendment, I personally will go on with the Bill; it will not spoil it as far as I am concerned. At the same time I am convinced that it is not a wise amendment. I would like to ask Senator Brady the same question as I asked the Secretary of the Incorporated Law Society, as to how this amendment would prevent a bogus company from being set up. I have been waiting for an answer to that question, and it has not arrived yet. I am afraid that there is no answer. A bogus company, to act as a trustee or as an executor if it were possible, which is doubtful, could be set up at present, and the only difference that this amendment would make would be that if the capital were less than £50,000, or if they had less than £20,000 paid up, they could still act, but they would have to appoint a syndicate. The object of this Bill is simply to put a corporate body in exactly the same position as an individual, neither better nor worse. This amendment says that a corporate body shall be the same as an individual if it has £50,000 capital, and it shall not be the same as an individual if it has less than £50,000 capital. There is nothing whatever to say how much capital an individual—who might conceivably be a rogue, but who could not very well be bogus—should have to be appointed as executor. I leave this amendment to the House. I do not want to press the point, but I do think that it is a foolish thing to put into the Bill an amendment that would not achieve what is intended to prevent a bogus company from acting. There is a large question which cannot be dealt with in this Bill and which, I think, should not be dealt with by any private member, and that is the whole question of individuals and corporate bodies acting as trustees, the capital that they should have, and the security that they should give. That was dealt with in England in Lord Birkenhead's Act, and it is quite possible that an Act will be introduced to deal with it here. But to move that it should be done only in the case of a corporate body seems ridiculous, and while the law is as it is I think if a man wants to appoint someone under the Bill he could not appoint an incompetent company unless they had £50,000 capital, but he could appoint an incompetent individual who has no capital at all. This is outside the scope of the Bill, and I oppose it for that reason.

It is quite true that no security is asked to-day from an individual whom a testator appoints, but it must be remembered that that individual is the deliberate choice of the testator, and no doubt the company will be his deliberate choice also. I see my learned friend, Senator Brown, shaking his head, and I am always frightened when I see that.

CATHAOIRLEACH

There is nothing in it, Senator.

I must protest against that. I find myself for the first time in complete disagreement with your lordship. But the testator selects his executor. No doubt, under this Bill he will select a company. But my point is—and it is a point strongly urged by the Incorporated Law Society —that the difference between a company and an individual is very great in this respect, that again the advertisement would come into play, and a man who is not very well versed in these matters and who is thinking of settling his affairs will say: "It would be a very desirable thing to have a corporation to act as my executor," and "I saw X. Y. Z. advertise in a paper last week. They can do all the work for me, and I will appoint them my executors."

He would have to see them and arrange the fee.

But I think Senator Douglas will concede this, that if a bogus company of that kind is established, the gentlemen who will constitute the directors will be of such a type that they will be able to impress a small farmer who comes to them about his affairs that they are exceedingly able gentlemen and that he could not do better than entrust his affairs to them. Frankly, I must tell the House that the more I have thought over it, the more I am impressed by the reasonableness of the amendment. Senator Douglas has admitted that it can do no harm, and it might prevent unscrupulous persons from availing themselves of the Bill. They could do this to-day, as Senator Douglas has reminded the House. There is nothing to prevent three or four unscrupulous individuals from forming themselves into a limited company and carefully providing in their Articles of Association that they can act as executors, but so far, at any rate, functions such as these have been associated with big corporations like the banks and the insurance companies, and the bogus promoters, able as they are, may not be alive to the fact, until they see this Bill become law, that they can exercise their powers in the evil manner suggested. I think that the House would be well advised to add this amendment to the Bill. It can do no harm, and it can possibly prevent a great deal of harm.

I understand that a corresponding Bill has been passed in England.

CATHAOIRLEACH

No. As I understand it, it is a general Bill, dealing with the position of executors and administrators. It is wider in its provisions and terms than this Bill. It brings about the same result, but it deals with the matter in a more extensive and elaborate way.

Were corporate bodies brought in under that?

CATHAOIRLEACH

I cannot tell you that.

There was an English Act in 1921 like this. It contained wider provisions than these, but this is similar to that Act.

Senator Brady has told us that the allurements of a company by means of advertising is very much greater than in the case of an individual. A company can advertise, but an individual does not do so.

This will not prevent him.

It may be that if companies begin to advertise individuals will follow suit.

CATHAOIRLEACH

I think the Senator also means that an advertisement in the name of a company would be more attractive than an advertisement by an individual.

Much more attractive. As I understand there is no harm in introducing this, I cannot see that there is any objection to putting it in.

Could the lay members of the Seanad have an idea of what corporate bodies, other than banking and insurance bodies, take on the task of acting as executors?

CATHAOIRLEACH

Nothing has been done in that way except by large institutions up to the present, mainly by banking and insurance companies, and the suggestion is that the facilities afforded by this Bill might be a temptation to others to try to attract this business.

By forming a bogus insurance company. Is such a thing possible, to form a bogus insurance company for the express purpose of acting as executors and administrators?

CATHAOIRLEACH

It could be done if this Bill is passed.

I am still of opinion that the position will not be changed by this amendment. There is this consideration: that it is possible that there are a number of private companies formed from time to time which are really partnerships turned into limited companies. If they chose to include in the Articles power for one individual to act as an executor they could do so and he could let the company do the work. For instance, I could appoint an individual in a firm as my executor. I could do so under the present law. If companies had that power in their Articles of Association it might be taken by certain private companies. The effect of this amendment will be that a company, unless it has a capital of £50,000, will not get the benefit of being treated as individuals are. In other words, it will be made more difficult to appoint partners, because they will have to appoint a syndicate and could not act in the same way as if one individual partner were appointed.

Question put and declared carried.

I move:—

3. Schedule. Rule 3. To delete in line 23 the words "leading to" and to substitute therefor the words "necessary to lead."

This is a purely verbal amendment, following alterations made in Committee, in order to make the Bill symmetrical.

Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be received for final consideration.
Top
Share