On this motion, we are in the same position to-day with regard to this Bill as we were on the last occasion. I see on the Order Paper for the Dáil that the Bill which is consequent upon this Bill is still under consideration before the Dáil. It is probable that it will be considered by the Dáil to-day. I, therefore, move that the further consideration of this Bill be postponed for three weeks so that the Seanad may have the Seanad By-election Bill before it proceeds with a discussion on the Final Stage of Constitution (Amendment No. 11) Bill.
Constitution (Amendment No. 11) Bill, 1928—Fifth Stage.
Question proposed: That this Bill be received for Final consideration and do now pass.
I second.
Question put and declared carried.
On a show of hands being called for,
I think that a show of hands is a very bad method of taking a division.
Cathaoirleach
Would you like a division, Senator?
I think there ought to be a division unless you, sir, give a very decided opinion on the matter.
Cathaoirleach
As far as I could observe there was no substantial opposition shown to the passing of the motion.
Perhaps Senator Johnson would give his reasons for moving the motion.
I thought it was merely formal. The position is——
On a point of order. Might I ask that those who are against the adjournment of the Bill would stand up in their places.
Why not have a show of hands?
Cathaoirleach
Senator Jameson does not like that. The other method, that of taking a division, is the Constitutional one.
I agree with Senator Jameson, that on important matters of this kind it is infinitely better that a division should be taken.
I have not any great feeling about the Senator's motion, but the position is that I did not catch what he said—it is hard to hear here—when stating his reasons for putting off the final consideration of this Bill for three weeks.
Cathaoirleach
What the Senator said was that the Bill which implements the method for filling vacancies in the Seanad is now being considered by the Dáil and that we are in the same position with regard to it as we were on the last day when the Fifth Stage of the Constitution (Amendment No. 11) Bill was before the House. The position, the Senator pointed out, would be this: that if we passed the Bill now before us, and if a vacancy occurred in the Seanad, we would have no means of filling that vacancy until the Seanad By-Election Bill now before the Dáil had been passed.
I am not sure that was the position the last time this Bill was adjourned. It was just after the death had occurred of Mrs. Stopford Green. The announcement of her death was made to the Seanad on that day. A vacancy had, therefore, arisen in the Seanad, and if we passed the Final Stage of this Bill on that day the election to fill the vacancy created by her death would have to be under the new law. The position was that there was no electoral Act in operation at that time, although the law as to the constituency would have been altered by the passing of the Final Stage of this Bill.
Cathaoirleach
And the position would really be the same if a vacancy in the Seanad were to occur to-morrow. The position to-day is identical with what it was on the last occasion that this Bill was before the House.
Is there any reason why we should not go on with this Bill to-day?
Cathaoirleach
It has been pointed out that should we go on with this Bill to-day and pass the Final Stage of it, and should a vacancy arise in the Seanad to-morrow, we would be without the machinery for filling that vacancy, for the reason that the Bill before the Dáil, already referred to, has not yet reached this House.
One reason why I oppose this motion is that we should have had notice that a motion to adjourn the consideration of this Bill was to be moved. To spring a motion like this upon the Seanad without notice gives Senators no opportunity of considering whether or not there are sufficient reasons for supporting the motion moved by Senator Johnson. I do not anticipate, and I do not think that there are any grounds for anticipating, that an impasse is likely to arise in connection with the Bill at present before the Dáil—a Bill the object of which is to provide machinery for the filling of vacancies. I do not think it is fair to this Assembly to have a motion of this kind sprung on us without notice.
The motion that I moved was quite formally spoken to, because I thought it was the fixed opinion of the Seanad, as decided twice before, that in a matter of this kind there should be in existence machinery for the filling of vacancies. If Constitution (Amendment No. 11) Bill passes out of the hands of the Seanad and it immediately becomes law, there will then be no machinery for the filling of vacancies in the Seanad until a new Act of Parliament is passed. There is a Bill dealing with the subject of the filling of vacancies before the Dáil at the present time. We do not know in what form that Bill will reach the Seanad, nor do we know what changes the Seanad may make in it. Neither do we know how long it will take to pass. In those circumstances, if we pass this Bill at the moment, the Dáil and the Seanad will be in the position that there will be no means at law for filling any vacancy that may occur. It seems to me that it is an incongruous position for the Seanad to place itself in, and that it is quite undersirable from many points of view. That is on the matter of machinery.
As to the constitutional position, it is surely undesirable that the Seanad should bind itself to any course of action altering the constitution of its body until it knows what is going to replace it, or until it has some idea of what is going to fill the gap. That is why I think the present situation should be kept in hand until we know what the position will be. Probably the next step which will be available for us will be as soon as the Bill, altering the method of election for the Seanad, comes from the Dáil. That Bill is on the Order Paper for the Dáil to-day. The Bill may be in the Seanad next week, but of that I know nothing. But, clearly, it seems to me that the present machinery should not be scrapped until we know what is going to take its place. By passing the Fifth Stage of this Bill to-day we, in effect, scrap the machinery for reconstituting the Seanad, that is, for the filling of vacancies which may at any time occur between now and the setting up of new legislation.
Might I point out that the position to-day in respect to this Bill is exactly the same as the position that existed before this Bill was first held up two or three months ago. It was then pointed out that if we passed the Final Stage of this Bill before the amending Bill came forward from the Dáil that we would be without any machinery to fill any vacancy that might arise in the Seanad. Since that was done, three vacancies have arisen in the Seanad. If objection were not taken three months ago to the passing of the Final Stage of this Bill, and if the Bill had been passed at that time, we would be to-day three short in our membership. To-day we are in no better position than we were in then. If this Bill is finally passed to-day we may have a further number of vacancies occurring in the Seanad before the Seanad By-Election Bill comes before it, and we would still be without the power to fill those vacancies. In the circumstances, I do not think that we ought to depart now from the attitude towards this Bill that we took up before. As to the point that has been made that the motion to adjourn the consideration of this Bill has been brought forward without notice, might I say that the motion is brought forward to-day under exactly the same circumstances as those which existed on a previous occasion. No notice of motion was given then, and as far as I understand, no notice to move such a motion is required under our Standing Orders.
I think one of the reasons for the delay in passing the Bill in the Dáil was that this Bill had not been passed. If that is the reason I think we ought to clear that out of the way.
We must remember that before the machinery of the Bill is passed this Bill must have passed, otherwise there would be no law for the machinery to work on, so that the Final Stage of this Bill must be passed by this House at least before the Final Stage of the other Bill.
If we defer it to-day the same thing will occur again and we will be deferring the Bill indefinitely and be just coming here and going away again.
Cathaoirleach
I am very anxious to facilitate the House, and I would like to get the opinion of the House as to whether it is advisable or not that the further consideration of this Bill be adjourned for three weeks.
As I understand, we must pass the Final Stage of this Bill before the other Bill can be passed through the Dáil.
Cathaoirleach
I am not satisfied that is the case.
Can we provide the machinery for a Bill that has not become an Act? That is really the question.
If we pass this motion now, any time the Bill comes before the House again Senator Johnson can put forward the same argument for holding it up.
If the other Bill comes before the House we know where we are.
The other Bill cannot come before this House until this Bill is passed by this House. If that is the fact Senator Johnson can raise this objection every time. I think we are talking a good deal in the dark.
In my judgment there seems to be a misunderstanding. Senator Jameson is mistaken when he says that the other Bill cannot be proceeded with in the Dáil until this Bill is passed in the Seanad. I am quite sure he is mistaken in that view. It is quite competent for the Dáil to pass the Bill now before it, whatever we do with this Bill in the Seanad. In fact, as was said in the Seanad some time ago, there would be nothing unconstitutional in including in this Bill provisions as to the machinery for an election. In case this Bill is passed, the two Bills could have been included in the same measure.
If I am in order, I propose that the Fifth Stage of this Bill be postponed until next week.
Would not the position be the same next week as to-day?
Cathaoirleach
It may not be.
The other Bill may be passed in the Dáil.
I second Senator Counihan's amendment.
I acquiesce in the amendment.
Amendment put and agreed to.