Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Dec 1929

Vol. 13 No. 5

Seanad Bye-Elections Bill, 1929—Third Stage.

The Seanad went into Committee.

Section 1 agreed to.

SECTION 2 (1).

(1) Whenever a vacancy occurs in the membership of Seanad Eireann by the death, resignation, or disqualification of a member thereof the Clerk of the Seanad shall, on the direction of Seanad Eireann, send to the Minister notice (in this Act referred to as notice of a casual vacancy) in writing of such vacancy.

Mr. Johnson

I move amendment 1:

Section 2, sub-section (I)—To add at the end of the sub-section the words: "and a requisition that it shall be filled in accordance with the provisions of this Act."

The explanation for the amendment lies in this, that the Bill, to the ordinary reader who is not closely analytical, would appear to reverse the procedure that has hitherto held, and to place the Minister in a predominant position in regard to the filling of a vacancy in the Seanad. In the analogous case of filling a vacancy in the Dáil, the procedure is that the House orders that a writ shall be issued. The actual work is initiated by a formal decision of the Dáil, the Clerk of the House calling upon the Returning Officer to proceed with the election. It is quite clear that the proposals in this Bill make some variations necessary from the procedure followed in the Dáil. While I do not think there is any intention whatever to make any change in the relative positions of the Seanad and the Minister, there does appear, on the surface at any rate, to be a change in the emphasis that is laid in sub-section (1). We have the provision that the Clerk of the Seanad shall send notice to the Minister, in writing, when a vacancy has occurred, but I ask Senators to note that that depends upon the direction of the Seanad. These few words, "on the direction of Seanad Eireann," seem to fit in rather casually. Then, after the notice has been received by the Minister, the Minister shall, by order, direct an election to be held.

I think that, in actual fact, the initiating of the election procedure depends upon these words "on the direction of Seanad Eireann." In my view that is not definite enough, and is inclined perhaps to create a precedent which would be unfortunate. It seems to me to leave the work of ordering an election for the filling of a vacancy in the Seanad to the Minister and not to the Seanad itself. I think if one were drafting the Bill with that idea in mind, the Bill would have to be redrafted very thoroughly in quite a number of particulars. I have not thought the matter of that great importance and urgency that it justifies such a radical change in the form of the Bill. It has been thought that the predominant position of the Seanad in the matter will be provided for if we insert the words set down in the amendment—"and a requisition and that it shall be filled in accordance with the provisions of this Act," emanating from the Seanad in those directing words. The purpose of the amendment is, therefore, to make quite clear that the Seanad is the initiating authority in the matter and not the Minister.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (General Mulcahy)

As suggested by you, sir, the other day there were a number of Senators anxious to discuss this matter with me. I have discussed the matter with them. As far as I am concerned as a lay draftsman, I have no objection to Senator Johnson's amendment. If the amendment meets with the approval of the Seanad generally, I have no objection to accepting it. The matter, however, has been discussed with the Parliamentary draftsman, and he suggests that, instead of Senator Johnson's amendment, an amendment like the one I am about to read would harmonise more with his professional outlook on this matter. The amendment reads:

In sub-section (1) page 2, line 27, to insert after the word "thereof" the words "in order to cause such vacancy to be filled."

As I have said Senator Johnson's amendment is quite satisfactory from my point of view, but the Parliamentary draftsman suggests this amendment. If it meets with the approval of Senator Johnson and of Senators generally, I suggest that it should be accepted in substitution for the amendment moved by the Senator.

Mr. Johnson

As far as I am concerned I think the amendment suggested by the Minister would have the desired effect. I do not know to what extent it meets the views of other members of the House with whom I have had consultations on the matter.

Mr. Brown

I am inclined to think that it meets with their approval. The question really is: by what authority is the machinery to be started for the filling of a vacancy in the Seanad? If the draft amendment read by the Minister puts that authority in the hands of the Seanad, as I think it does, then I think the suggested amendment is satisfactory.

Cathaoirleach

Is the House agreed to accept the amended amendment submitted by the Minister?

Agreed.

Amended amendment put and agreed to.

Section 2, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 3, 4 and 5 agreed to.

SECTION 6 (3)

No objection made by the Seanad returning officer himself or to him by any other person to any nomination paper on the ground that the statement therein of the name, address, description, or qualifications of the candidate thereby nominated is insufficient or is not in compliance with this Act shall be allowed or deemed valid unless the same is made before twelve o'clock noon on the last day for receiving nominations.

Mr. Johnson

I move amendment 2:

Section 6, sub-section (3). To delete in lines 53-4 the words "twelve o'clock noon" and to substitute therefor the words "two o'clock in the afternoon."

This amendment is, perhaps, of not very great importance, but yet it would seem to me, notwithstanding advice to the contrary, that it is desirable that if any person is entitled to make an objection to a nomination paper on the grounds that the name, address, description or qualifications of the candidate are insufficient, or not in compliance with the Act, that a period should elapse between the close of the nomination hour and the last moment for making an objection. As the Bill stands the nomination papers must be handed in before twelve o'clock noon. That is under sub-section (1). But under sub-section (3) any objection on the grounds that I have stated shall not be deemed to be valid or be allowed unless handed in also before twelve o'clock on the same day. One can see that nomination papers may be handed in at one minute to twelve o'clock. If there is any justification in providing for an objection being allowed by anyone at all to the returning officer, it seems to me inevitable that some time should elapse between the closing hour and the period within which an objection may be laid. I suggest the hour of two o'clock, but that is a matter of no moment. I raise the point because it seems to me to be a defect in the drafting of the Bill if there is any justification at all for allowing objections to be raised.

General Mulcahy

I would like to point out to Senators the distinction between sub-section (2) of Section 6, which deals with objections on matters of substance, and sub-section (3) of the same section, which deals with objections on matters of form. Sub-section (2) reads:

(2) Between the hours of 10 o'clock in the forenoon and one o'clock in the afternoon on the last day for receiving nominations the Seanad returning officer shall, at the place mentioned in the foregoing sub-section, make such objections as he shall think fit to any nomination paper duly delivered to him and consider such objections to any such nomination paper as shall there and then be made to him by any person law fully present and shall rule on the validity of every such nomination paper.

The persons lawfully entitled to be present are the candidates themselves, and one other person nominated by each candidate. Therefore, under sub-section (2) there is one clear hour for acting after the close of the nomination in the case of persons lawfully entitled to be present who desire to make objections on matters of substance. (Sub-section (3) read.)

As I have said, sub-section (2) deals with objections as regards matters of substance, while sub-section (3) deals with objections on matters of form. I submit to Senators that it is undesirable, after the time for nominations has closed, that the period should be extended so that objections could be allowed on mere matters of form. If there is an objection on matters of substance there is a period of an hour inside which the objection can be made. Suppose there was a small error in the name, address or qualifications of a candidate—I mean the qualifications which an article of the Constitution requires candidates for the Seanad to have—I think no one would desire that on a mere matter of form of that kind, and where the nominations had closed, that the person should be disqualified. I submit that the hour that is allowed for objections of substance is, in practice, quite sufficient and requires no extension. If we were to extend the hour in sub-section (3) beyond 12 o'clock, which is the hour fixed for the closing of nomination papers, it might easily result in the disqualification of a perfectly qualified candidate because some technical error had been made in the filling up of the nomination paper.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Section 6 agreed to.

Mr. Johnson

As amendment 3 is consequential on the last amendment, which has been defeated, I ask leave to withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sections 7 to 11, inclusive, agreed to

Title agreed to.

Bill ordered to be reported with one amendment.

The Seanad went out of Committee.

Bill reported with one amendment.

Cathaoirleach

I propose to fix this day week for the taking of the Report Stage of this Bill.

General Mulcahy

I suggest that as the Dáil is adjourning on Friday, and as the Seanad has already expressed its opinion on this particular Bill as well as on Constitution (Amendment No. 11) Bill, it would be desirable that both Bills should be disposed of as soon as possible. It would not, I think, be desirable to have a Constitution Amending Bill and an Electoral Bill hanging over. If it were not straining the Standing Orders of the Seanad very much, I would ask that this Bill and Constitution (Amendment No. 11) Bill be taken in their final stages tomorrow, so that both could be reported to the Dáil before the adjournment on Friday.

Cathaoirleach

The suggestion made by the Minister is, I think, a good one, because we do not know how soon it may be necessary to take advantage of the provisions of this Bill. I think it would be as well if it were placed on the Statute Book before Christmas, and if the House is agreeable I suggest that the remaining stages of it should be taken to-morrow.

Mr. Brown

I would be very glad to agree to the suggestion made by the Minister, but as two days' notice is required for the suspension of Standing Orders I am afraid that we cannot do that.

Bill ordered to be taken on Report on Wednesday, 11th December.