Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Mar 1930

Vol. 13 No. 15

Central Fund Bill, 1930 (Certified Money Bill)—Committee Stage.

Section 1 and 2 agreed to.

SECTION 3.

Question proposed: That Section 3 stand part of the Bill.

Colonel Moore

On this motion I desire to ask the Minister for Finance the following question of which I have already given him notice. The question is in this form:—

The Minister has frequently stated that there is a liability on the Free State to pay yearly to Britain large sums of money. For clarity I may mention two of the largest items:—

(a) £1,000,000 (this year), being the sum allotted by the British Parliament for pensions of the discharged men of the R.I. Constabulary, their widows and children.

(b) A sum of about £3,000,000 a year, being the amount at present of the land annuities.

These with other sums amount to about £5,000,000 a year (at present), which when capitalised amount (probably) to over £100,000,000. At the same time the Minister has issued official statements that the debt of the Free State does not amount to £20,000,000. I think he has stated it is much less, but I put it at £20,000,000. I would like to know why the items I have mentioned, which he has stated to be "liabilities," are not included in his statement of the debt; and what difference (if any) there is in his mind between a "liability" (which he accepts and pays) and a "debt."

I think if the Minister for Finance were to clear up this matter it would be a help to Senators.

Minister for Finance (Mr. Blythe)

I do not think I need take up much time in answering the Senator's question. First of all, if there is any reason for capitalising any liability in respect of pensions, there is an equal liability in respect of all. That is to say, that if we should capitalise the payments made in respect of R.I.C. pensions in estimating the State debt, then equally we should also capitalise payments in respect of old age pensions, of civil servants' pensions, and all pensions of that sort. In fact, if we were to capitalise pensions as a liability I do not know that we should not capitalise all other liabilities, such, for instance, as the payment of civil servants' salaries and so on. Of course, if we were to do that we would reach a ridiculous position. With regard to the land annuities, that is a liability that, fundamentally, is due by the farmers to the holders of the land stock. The functions and responsibilities of both the British Government and the Free State Government in respect of these land annuities are, as one might say, mainly those of a conduit pipe.

Colonel Moore

I should like to know if I will be entitled to reply to the Minister's statement on the Fifth Stage of the Bill?

Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Section 3 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill ordered to be reported without amendment.