I move:
That the Standing Orders be suspended for the purpose of enabling the Fifth Stage of the Military Service Pensions Bill, 1929, to be taken to-day.
Military Service Pensions Bill, 1929—Report Stage.
Question—"That the Military Service Pensions Bill, 1929, be considered on Report"—put and declared carried.
I second.
Cathaoirleach
Have you been directed by Senator Gogarty to do so?
I do so in his place
I must object. I do not object on any grounds inherent in the Military Service Pensions Bill at all. I oppose it, but that is quite beside the point. But this motion put down to carry four Bills as if we were legislating wholesale, without any consideration for the merits of these measures, is very objectionable. I object and, if necessary, will divide the House if I have sufficient support on this as a protest against the manner in which it is suggested Standing Orders should be suspended in relation to these matters. A very short time ago, when a most important motion tabled by Senator Johnson came on for discussion, it was found that there were not a sufficient number of members present to keep a House for the discussion. If one wanted an argument or a reason for the abolition of this House altogether such motions as these give one admirable reasons. I oppose the motion.
I think many of us have a good deal of sympathy with what Senator Dowdall has stated, but it is most important that there should be some sort of understanding in regard to the kind of Bills where you can wisely and properly suspend Standing Orders between the taking of the Fourth and Fifth Stages. If a Bill has met with general consent on the Second Stage, and is one to which there is little or no opposition, then the taking of the Fifth Stage is clearly and definitely perfunctory. That, I think, applied in the case of the last Bill. But if there is a desire on the part of members of the House again to debate the principle of a Bill on the Fifth Stage, then I agree with Senator Dowdall that a very strong case—a case of real urgency—would have to be made before the House should be asked to take the two stages together. I think it will be agreed that there is a great difference between the two kinds of Bills I have mentioned. If there is no desire in any part of the House to debate the Fifth Stage of this Bill, then I will not oppose the motion, but if a desire is expressed to have the Bill debated, then I think there is a case made against the suspension of Standing Orders for the taking of the Fifth Stage.
The reason that I moved the motion was because it was obvious that the taking of the Fifth Stage would be purely formal and perfunctory. Not a single member evinced the slightest inclination to discuss the Bill on the Fourth Stage. It seemed to me that we would have exactly the same thing on the Fifth Stage. It was not because I felt that there was any tremendous urgency about the Bill, but I felt that the taking of the Fifth Stage would be purely formal as the taking of the previous stage had been, that I moved the suspension of Standing Orders. Thinking that, I felt that we might as well dispose of the Bill to-day as on the next day. If there are any members of the House who want to discuss the Bill further I certainly do not want to deprive them of the opportunity of doing so.
Cathaoirleach
The motion before the House is to suspend Standing Orders for the purpose of enabling the Fifth Stage of the Military Service Pensions Bill to be taken to-day. The passing of that motion will not prevent a debate on the Fifth Stage of the Bill. Senators who desire to do so can speak for an hour or longer if they wish, on the Fifth Stage of the Bill. Notice of motion appeared on the Order Paper that it was intended to move the suspension of Standing Orders to enable the Fifth Stage of this Bill to be taken to-day. Therefore, I cannot see how any injustice is being inflicted on anyone by the moving of the motion now before the House.
If the procedure of the House was that when a Bill passed the Report Stage that there was to be no further discussion— that it went through the Fifth Stage automatically without any discussion —it might be far better, and one could understand this. But with our procedure as it is, the idea of putting down an omnibus motion that four Bills can go through without any further consideration and do now pass, is not, I submit, in accordance with the spirit of our proceedings.
Cathaoirleach
I thought I had tried to make it clear that this motion is absolutely in accordance with the practice of the House. Notice was given that it was intended to move the suspension of Standing Orders to enable the Fifth Stage of this Bill to be taken to-day. I want again to emphasise the fact that there is no intention whatever, nor has any attempt been made, to prevent the making of any criticism that it is thought wise or desirable to make on the Fifth Stage of this Bill.
May I say that I think the serious portion of Senator Dowdall's objection lies in the form in which this motion appears on the Order Paper —that it is a single motion dealing with four separate Bills. That is the effect of the motion: to deal with four separate Bills. But as the Chair has taken this as a separate motion we are dealing with a separate motion. Therefore, I think the point that is serious in Senator Dowdall's objection has been met, namely, that the motion asking the House to deal with four Bills in one division has not been moved. We are now dealing with the motion to take a single Bill, to wit, the Military Service Pensions Bill. Inasmuch as that is the motion before the House, I think the essential feature of the objection is removed. I think it is not a matter that we need worry about, and that we can take the Fifth Stage of the Bill to-day as well as we could next week.
Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 21; Níl, 14.
Tá
- Samuel L. Brown, K.C.
- Miss Kathleen Browne.
- Alfred Byrne.
- Mrs. Costello.
- The Countess of Desart.
- James G. Douglas.
- Michael Duffy.
- Michael Fanning.
- Thomas Farren.
- Thomas Foran.
- The Earl of Granard.
- Thomas Johnson.
- Cornelius Kennedy.
- Seán Milroy.
- Sir Walter Nugent.
- Joseph O'Connor.
- John T. O'Farrell.
- L. O'Neill.
- Bernard O'Rourke.
- James J. Parkinson.
- Richard Wilson.
Níl
- William Barrington.
- Sir Edward Coey Bigger.
- Caitlín Bean Uí Chléirigh.
- Michael Comyn, K.C.
- Joseph Connolly.
- J.C. Dowdall.
- Sir John Purser Griffith.
- Thomas Linehan.
- Seán E. MacEllin.
- Colonel Moore.
- Joseph O'Doherty.
- M.F. O'Hanlon.
- Siobhán Bean an Phaoraigh.
- Séamus Robinson.
Motion declared carried.