Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Jul 1930

Vol. 13 No. 31

Public Business. - Vocational Education Bill, 1930—Committee Stage (Resumed).

Sections 54 to 59 agreed to.

SECTION 60 (2).

Whenever the Minister makes an order under the foregoing sub-section declaring a particular area to be a district to which this Part of this Act applies and such area is neither co-terminous with nor included in a county borough or urban district mentioned in the Fourth Schedule to this Act, he shall, after consultation with the Minister for Justice, by the same order prescribe the rank and station of the officer of the Gárda Síochána who is to be the enforcing authority for such district for the purposes of this Part of this Act.

Mr. Milroy

I move:—

Section 60, sub-section (2). To delete in line 54 the words "borough or urban district" and to substitute therefor the words "or other borough."

Senators will notice that similar amendments to this are tabled to Sections 65, 81 and 85, so that what I say regarding this one will apply to the others. Under the Local Government (Dublin) Act the urban districts of Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire will be included in the new coastal borough, and the urban districts of Pembroke, Rathmines and Rathgar will form part of the County Borough of Dublin. These are the only urban districts to which the Fourth Schedule will apply, and it is desirable that the same words should be used in the Bill with reference to them.

Mr. Johnson

Perhaps it is a matter of procedure, but it seems to me that we should more or less decide the main question now and leave these amendments which are consequential upon the larger question until a later stage. If it is presumed that the amendment will pass, that will be taken as an agreement to the principle of the larger question.

Cathaoirleach

That will not be assumed.

Mr. Johnson

When we are discussing the alteration of words which are really consequential on a later amendment we ought, in fact, to be discussing the larger issue.

Mr. Wilson

Is it not the law now that these urban areas are included in the City of Dublin.

Cathaoirleach

I would not like to answer a question of law.

Mr. Wilson

Is not the Bill passed?

Amendment put and agreed to.

Section 60, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 61 (4).

Mr. Connolly

I move:—

Section 61, sub-section (4). To insert before the sub-section a new sub-section as follows:—

"(4) Every compulsory course of technical instruction provided under this section shall provide for not more than ninety hours of manual instruction and not less than ninety hours of non-manual instruction."

It is provided under this section that not less than 180 hours a year will be devoted to compulsory technical education, and the purpose of the amendment is to ensure that a portion of the time of the compulsory attendance shall be devoted to non-manual work. On the Second Reading I emphasised the desirability of having cultural education as part of the education of those attending the compulsory classes for technical works. I would like that the Seanad would give this matter full consideration and, if convinced by the arguments, pass the amendment. We all know that we have a very considerable number of people in Ireland who are able to read and write, and yet who, in the real sense, must be termed illiterate. My idea is that at these compulsory technical classes there should be a measure of education given in a general sense, and that facilities should be afforded to students to develop cultural tendencies, if they have any.

I feel that we have a very considerable amount of native talent, in some cases amounting to genius. that is potential in the country, undeveloped, and it is with a view to giving such cultural development and general education that I suggest this amendment is necessary. The scheme will probably be interpreted throughout the country, and particularly outside the cities as purely vocational, and I am afraid that what will happen will be that those who are attending these classes will be expected to continue the manual end of work at which they have been engaged all day. I do not think that is desirable. As I stated on the Second Reading I have considerable experience in the handling of apprentices and those attending technical classes. I have the feeling that in the real sense, education only commences when one leaves school, and that the years between 16 and 20 or 22 are really the formative years when character is developed, tendencies are self-discovered or otherwise, and that a certain amount of lead or direction is then essential to open up the minds of the youth of the country as to what their potential faculties, tastes or tendencies may be. I hold that you will not get that in the ordinary technical class, provided it is only going to devote itself exclusively to the purely vocational side. Even on the technical side I feel that the applied arts and science of the particular industry in which youth are interested, or are already working at, like wood-work, should form the basis of instruction at the technical classes. Drawing, mathematics and geometry, scaling in other industries, scientific analysis and estimating costs might be included in the course. Take agriculture, at the classes, mathematics would be far more important than most other subjects. We should have it laid down in a statutory way, that these are really important factors in the vocational education that we want to impart. I do not want to labour the matter unduly. I referred to it fully on the Second Reading, and I think Senators understand what I have in mind. The idea is to divide the hours so that not less than half the time will be devoted to compulsory technical education on the manual side, and the other half to the cultural side of the work. I do not like the word non-manual but I was at a loss to know what word to put in. To insert the word "cultural" sounds almost priggish or pedantic, but, at the same time, it is with a view to giving an opportunity for cultural development throughout the country that I put down the amendment.

The Minister may have some suggestion to make on the matter, and he may even go to the extent of accepting the word "cultural," but if that is done we may have to change the whole title and designation of the Bill. The object is to give throughout rural Ireland the opportunity for cultural training, for giving the right angle or slant at the right time to any potential development as regards the students, and that may result in poetry, drama, or other literature, or applied arts. I am interested to get them directed into a channel whereby they may seek learning for themselves, and understand the value of cultural training. In other words, if we get them to read for themselves we will have achieved something. As I have already said, our education really only starts when we leave school, and that applies even to university students. If the Minister is agreeable to accept the amendment we will in some way ensure that the classes established throughout the country will do something towards that end. For that reason I commend the amendment to the consideration of the House.

Sir John Keane

It rather puzzles me that anyone should wish to make any process of education so rigid as the Senator suggests. He presupposes that humanity is a sort of common stereotyped form, and that you have only to say to them "draw" and they will draw, and so on through the other subjects. I do not know if the Senator is a family man. In the case of children, one might be specially adapted for music, and another for domestic work, and so on. As you approach humanity in the common you have to look at it from a different angle. You have to take the disposition of the individual if you are going to do any service by education, public or private, and you have to work on a system that has elasticity. There are many types, especially in rural Ireland. It would be an absolute waste of money to put a certain class studying mathematics, drawing and music, but where there is a talent for music or drawing, then instruction should be given in such cases in those subjects, and similarly if they have any manual dexterity they should be given a training in manual work. But you cannot take people as if they were solid, inanimate things, and carve them out in a particular way like a lump of butter.

I hope the Minister will not embark on anything so rigid or stereotyped as the amendment suggests, and that he will leave the local bodies a considerable amount of discretion, leaving them the opportunity of grouping those who show a cultural inclination into cultural classes and those who have an aptitude for manual work into manual classes. Generally speaking, the aim should be to act in matters of this kind as one would in ordinary human affairs.

Mr. Wilson

I think Senator Connolly is looking forward a long way when he says that all over the country they are going to have compulsory technical education, because, according to the Bill, the Minister may designate certain areas to a committee where he will insist on compulsory education. The compulsory side of the Bill does not apply all over rural Ireland, and for that reason I think Senator Connolly is advancing too fast. We ought to see how this measure will work before we insist on rigidity of the kind that Senator Connolly suggests. Let the teachers, clergy and educated people who will be on the committees see from experience what is the best course to adopt and then, if they think it necessary, let them formulate regulations which they consider satisfactory and submit them to the Minister.

Mr. Johnson

I have sympathy with the desire of Senator Connolly. I am afraid the amendment is not well drafted, and I am doubtful whether it is practicable. I do not think it applies to the right section, to begin with. I think the section deals with continuation education almost entirely and not with technical education; but apart from that, which is rather a point of drafting, I call attention to the fact that there is implicit in the amendment that there shall be some hours devoted to manual instruction where compulsory education is enforced. I do not know whether the Senator proposes a manual course for persons attending a commerce class, for instance. Many of the subjects that come under the head of technical education are not manual at all in the generally accepted sense. The amendment would seem to impose the obligation on the persons attending such classes to undergo certain manual training. That may be desirable, but whether it is desirable under this Bill or not I am very doubtful. I think that we all desire to meet the hopes and expectations of the Senator in regard to limiting the number of manual working hours. That one who had been working eight or nine hours at, say woodwork, should go to manual work for another four hours a week is not helping him in education; whereas to give him a certain amount of theoretical training in the same industry, or other mental training, would be of greater advantage than to put him at purely manual operations. The definition of technical education is so much wider than manual operations that I think the working out of the amendment would be quite unsatisfactory, and would not be what is desired.

Minister for Education (Professor O'Sullivan)

I take it that the putting in of the word "technical" by the Senator in the amendment was a slip. What Senator Johnson has pointed out is quite correct. So far as the actual wording is concerned the amendment could not be inserted in the place proposed, but I take it for granted that the use of the word "technical" was a mistake. However, we will get over that. It is pleasant to be in agreement with Senator Sir John Keane, and I must say that I agree with a great deal of what he said in answer to the case made by Senator Connolly. So far as actual practice is concerned, I should say that in the great bulk of the cases in the 14 to 16 period very rarely will the 90 hours be exceeded I do not think it will ever be exceeded for manual instruction. However, I am rather slow to advise the Seanad to tie the hands of the committee in this particular matter. It is a matter for the Seanad, but I suggest a little more latitude should be given as regards the hours. I am not favourable to a fifty-fifty division in this particular matter.

[Mr. Dowdall took the Chair. ]

Mr. Connolly

The amendment is elastic as regards hours.

Professor O'Sullivan

Perhaps the Senator would not object to 110 and 70 hours, or something like that? It is for the Seanad to say whether they accept the principle or not. In addition to the difficulties mentioned by Senator Johnson in connection with the amendment, and the objection by Senator Sir John Keane, there is the further objection that as regards compulsory technical instruction it will not be enforced anywhere unless we have the consent of the particular trades concerned. That is inherent; it is portion of the Bill. The number of hours is fixed within certain limits after consultation with the committees. There is no explicit reference to consultation on courses, but undoubtedly there must be consultation, and there must be consultation with regard to the type of instruction with the trades, with the employees and the employers so far as the actual amount of instruction is concerned. I wonder are we tying them down too rigidly in this way and whether we would get the good will of employers and employees in regard to compulsory powers so far as technical education is concerned. As to this amendment, if the Seanad wishes to accept the principle. I do not care to advise them one way or another. I do not see many cases in which there would be more than 90 hours devoted to manual instruction. If in any place there is a class of person who would be satisfied with an alternative course it would be rather hard that he should be prevented from taking it.

Mr. Connolly

I was rather surprised to hear Senator Sir John Keane's remarks, because this proposal of mine was deliberately aimed at eliminating the rigidity that undoubtedly I know does exist in technical classes throughout the country, and, particularly where these are formed as trade classes dealing with an industry in a particular area, where the tendency is to devote their time entirely to some type of work that has been going on in the factory. It seems to me that if we allowed, at least, half the time that is compulsorily laid down, we should have another half which would be available in a flexible way to be devoted to any subject that the responsible people or the students there might wish to have taught. I am satisfied that when the employers are considering a matter like this they will only think in terms of the manufacturing industry in that particular area and they will not think in terms of allowing any development in the way of ordinary education, not to speak of cultural education. I said development. But the students will be attending the classes and so far from being rigid it does supply a flexible method of allowing the different types of ordinary education and cultural education which will not be applied in many areas in this country. That, at all events, is my point of view. The Minister apparently agrees with Senator Sir John Keane in that. I want to stress the point that my information is, that it will work out very differently there. I have the feeling that committees throughout this country will want to be watched, especially for the reason that the tendency towards cultural things is not highly developed. In view of this statement by the Minister that he thinks it would be better to leave the committees for a period to carry on, and in view of the attitude generally of the Seanad, I do not think it advisable to go on.

The Countess of Desart

I should like to mention to the Seanad an experience of my own when I was working on a committee in London. We were catering for girls who took up vocational trades to pursue their vocation under more sanitary conditions. There was one very intelligent girl of seventeen whom we apprenticed to the waistcoat trade. At first she said she enjoyed the work very much, but one day she electrified us by telling us she wanted to give up the whole thing. We summoned her before the committee and asked her why she wanted to give it up when we knew she liked the work so much at first. She said it was quite true that she liked the work at the start but what she could net understand was the cultural education. "They teach me over again the things that I have learned at school and which I had long ago forgotten," she said.

Mr. Wilson

Under this Bill you will be giving instruction in many districts compulsorily in continuation classes?

Professor O'Sullivan

I think so.

Mr. Connolly

I think you denied yourself that power yesterday.

Professor O'Sullivan

Oh no, I did not. I expect it will apply ultimately all over the country. There would be compulsory continuation education.

Mr. Wilson

That is to be a different thing altogether from the ordinary kind of primary education that is going on at present, that will be after school education. Does the Minister intend to make that compulsory?

Professor O'Sullivan

Yes, for about 180 hours per year. Only to that extent can it be compulsory under this Bill.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question—"That Sections 61 to 64 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.

SECTION 65.

(1) For the purposes of this Part of this Act the enforcing authority for a district to which this Part of this Act applies shall be—

(a) in every such district which is coterminous with or included in a county borough or urban district mentioned in the Fourth Schedule to this Act, the vocational education committee for that district; and

(b) in every such district which is neither coterminous with nor included in any of the said county boroughs or urban districts, the officer of the Gárda Síochána for the time holding the rank and occupying the station prescribed in that behalf by the order made by the Minister under this Part of this Act declaring such district to be a district to which this Part of this Act applies.

Mr. Milroy

I move amendment 18, which reads:—

Section 65, sub-section (1). To delete in line 58 the words "borough or urban district" and to substitute therefor the words "or other borough."

I think this amendment is consequential to an amendment already inserted.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Milroy

I move amendment 19, which reads:—

Section 65, sub-section (1). To delete in lines 62-63 the words " boroughs or urban districts" and to substitute therefor the words "or other boroughs."

Amendment agreed to.

Section 65, as amended, put and agreed to.

Sections 66 to 80 put and agreed to.

SECTION 81.

(2) Whenever the Minister makes an order under the foregoing sub-section declaring a particular area to be a district to which this Part of this Act applies and such area is neither coterminous with nor included in a county borough or urban district mentioned in the Fourth Schedule to this Act, he shall, after consultation with the Minister for Justice, by the same order prescribe the rank and station of the officer of the Gárda Síochána who is to be the enforcing authority for such district for the purposes of this Part of this Act.

Mr. Milroy

I move amendment 20, which is also a consequential amendment and reads:—

Section 81, sub-section (2). To delete in line 56 the words "borough or urban district" and to substitute therefor the words "or other borough."

Amendment agreed to.

Section 81, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 82, 83 and 84 agreed to.

SECTION 85.

(1) For the purposes of this Part of this Act the enforcing authority for a district to which this Part of this Act applies shall be—

(a) in every such district which is coterminous with or included in a county borough or urban district mentioned in the Fourth Schedule to this Act, the vocational education committee for that district; and

(b) in every such district which is neither coterminous with nor included in any of the said county boroughs or urban districts, the officer of the Gárda Síochána for the time being holding the rank and occupying the station prescribed in that behalf by the order made by the Minister under this Part of this Act declaring such district to be a district to which this Part of this Act applies.

Mr. Milroy

I move amendment 21, which reads:—

Section 85, sub-section (1). To delete in line 29 the words "borough or urban district" and to substitute therefor the words "or other borough."

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Milroy

I move amendment 22, which reads:—

Section 85, sub-section (1). To delete in lines 33-34 the words "borouoghs or urban districts" and to substitute therefor the words "or other boroughs."

Amendment agreed to.

Section 85, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 86 to 110, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 111.

(1) The Minister may by regulations made under this Act prescribe scales of salaries for the various classes of teachers employed by vocational education committees.

(2) A vocational education committee shall not pay to any teacher employed by it a salary which is not in accordance with the scale prescribed by the said regulations in respect of the class of teachers to which such teacher belongs.

Mr. Johnson

I move amendment 23, which reads:—

Section 111, sub-section (1). To delete in line 21 the word "may" and to substitute therefor the word "shall."

The sub-section makes it permissive for the Minister to make regulations respecting the salary scale for various classes of people. My amendment requires that the Minister "shall" make regulations, the object being that there shall be some kind of minimum uniformity over the State, no matter in what area, that is to say that you will have a class of teacher who will understand that there is a minimum scale of salary which is applicable to another district. The only point in this amendment is that, instead of this matter being permissive, the amendment makes it obligatory. It imposes this power upon the Minister.

Sir John Keane

I should like further information about this. I have a recollection of being on a technical committee going back to the days when it used to be said that the Irish were hewers of wood and drawers of water, and we wished to provide them with other means of livelihood, for instance, officers of the mercantile marine. We engaged a captain of a vessel, who used to go to Cardiff, to teach them to box the compass. A committee might get a local man, such as a carpenter or a slater or mason, to teach a trade. How are you going to bring the heavy machinery of the Minister to fix a salary in such a case? Surely the local committee is responsible enough to fix the salaries in such cases. They would, perhaps, like to make it a voluntary arrangement in the case of fixing the salaries of numbers of teachers.

Mr. Wilson

There is another point in this—the Minister is only providing 50 per cent. of the salary. The local authorities are providing the other 50 per cent. To that extent the local authorities have as much right as the Minister to a say as to what the salary is to be. To allow the Minister to fix it with the consent of the local authority would perhaps be the logical way. The local authority is paying only half the salary and the Minister has to pay the other half. Why should the salary be fixed without reference to the local committee?

Professor O'Sullivan

I am afraid the amendment would make the administration of the Act very difficult, if it were accepted. At present there are permissive rates in regard to a number of classes of teachers. The Bill as it stands goes beyond that as it gives the Minister power, notwithstanding what Senator Wilson said, to make certain rates compulsory and undoubtedly that power will be exercised in relation to a certain very big class such as domestic economy instructresses, instructors in woodwork, etc. There are, however, a number of other teachers such as those to whom Senator Sir John Keane referred, in regard to whom it would be impracticable and undesirable that the Minister should be compelled to fix scales of salaries. There may be only one or two of that particular type, for instance, in a Marine School. As I say for the larger classes undoubtedly scales of salary will be drawn up, but I am not in favour of the amendment which Senator Johnson proposes.

Mr. Johnson

Of course it is true as the Minister states, and it would answer the objection raised by Senator Keane, that the clause even as amended, applies to classes of teachers and that it is not beyond the power of the Departmental secretary, say, to draw up a schedule or a scale of salaries which would make provision for exceptional classes such as those to which Senator Sir John Keane referred. However it is clear enough that the regulations would require to deal with classes of teachers. Individual cases obviously could not be dealt with as a class. I draw attention to the fact that in Northern Ireland this proposal is already in operation. I realise at once that there is a certain difficulty in its administration, but I do not think that this is a difficulty that might not be overcome or that it would impede the working of the Bill. However, I am not pressing the amendment if the Minister is adamant.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Johnson

I move:—

Section 111, sub-section (1). After the word "teachers" in line 22 to insert the words "and officers."

This is intended to include, amongst the classes for which salaries may be prescribed by the Minister, officers as well as teachers. It is pointed out that you may have a principal, or let us say assistant-principals, or secretaries who may be part teachers or not at all teachers, who may be occupied wholly in secretarial or in official work as distinct from teaching work. This amendment seeks to provide that the officers of the committee should be included in the same category as teachers. That is to say, that the officers of the committee should have scales of salary provided for them by the Minister.

Professor O'Sullivan

Take the class now mentioned by Senator Johnson, principals, or take the chief executive officer who would be principal. You could not have a scale which would put on the same level the chief executive officer in a big scheme such as Dublin and the chief executive officer of a small scheme like Drogheda. That would also apply to cities like Waterford and Limerick. When you have a man capable of dealing with a much larger scheme you would, presumably, have to pay him a bigger salary.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Mr. Johnson

I move:—

Section 111, sub-section (2). To delete in line 25 the words "not in accordance with" and to substitute therefor the words "less than the salary to which such teacher is entitled by".

I think this is of more importance, because the reading of the sub-section would seem to make a very rigid adherence to the scales of salaries set forth. It states: "A vocational education committee shall not pay to any teacher employed by it a salary which is not in accordance with the scale prescribed by the said regulations in respect of the class of teachers to which such teacher belongs." That would make it impossible for any committee to attract specially qualified men or women for a special work and pay them something for their special qualifications. The words "not in accordance with" seem to preclude the possibility of any higher salary being paid to a teacher with special qualifications, and the amendment seeks to make a certain salary the minimum.

Professor O'Sullivan

This amendment practically leaves the matter in the hands of the committee. It allows the committee to pay him a higher salary if they think fit, but there is no compulsion on them. So far as that is concerned, I am prepared to accept the amendment subject to re-drafting.

[The Cathaoirleach resumed the Chair.]

Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator wish to withdraw the amendment?

Mr. Johnson

The Minister has accepted the principle and if the Minister would consider the wording, the matter could be dealt with at our next meeting. I am prepared to withdraw the amendment on that consideration.

Section 111 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Johnson

I move:

New section. Before Section 112 to insert a new section as follows:—

112. The Minister shall by regulations made under this Act prescribe the minimum rates of travelling and maintenance expenses payable to teachers and officers of vocational education committees who have to travel in the performance of their duties.

This amendment seeks to ensure that the Minister should make regulations regarding the rates of travelling expenses etc. There is a scale I understand touching teachers in general who travel outside their own areas for official work, but it is thought desirable that there should be a scale whereby teachers who are doing official work up and down the country should have a minimum scale of rates of travelling expenses, that is, first class fare, second class fare, or so many pence per mile, just as in the case of civil servants and other officials from the Departments. I think that there should be some uniformity at least in the allowances made for travelling and maintenance expenses under these educational schemes.

Mr. Guinness

These officers will be members of the Civil Service and I suppose they will be allowed travelling expenses under the rules by which civil servants are generally granted such expenses.

Professor O'Sullivan

These teachers are not civil servants. If Senator Johnson would meet me by inserting that "the Minister may" instead of "shall" in the amendment, I would be prepared to accept the principle of it.

Mr. Johnson

I am quite agreeable.

Cathaoirleach

The amendment will therefore be altered by the insertion of the word "may" instead of "shall."

Amendment, as amended, put and agreed to.

SECTION 112.

(1) The Minister may make Regulations in relation to the training and certification of teachers for schools and courses provided by a vocational education committee under this Act.

(2) Where a student accepted by the Minister for training as a teacher enters, in pursuance of regulations made under this section, into an undertaking with the Minister that he will, in consideration of any grant made by the Minister in respect of his maintenance and training, complete the course of training specified in the undertaking and will subsequently follow the profession of teacher in the manner and for the period specified in the undertaking and in the event of failure so to do will repay to the Minister such proportion of the grant made by the Minister as is specified in the undertaking, the undertaking shall be binding on him notwithstanding that he was an infant at the time when the undertaking was given and any sums repayable in accordance with the undertaking shall be recoverable by the Minister as a civil debt in a court of competent jurisdiction.

Mr. Johnson

I move:—

Section 112, sub-section (1). To delete in line 30 the words "by a vocational education committee."

Under Section 62 provision is made, for the approving of courses. That is to say, the Minister may approve of certain courses in schools as complying with the requirements regarding continuation education and technical education. It is thought that this required training and certification, or rather the quality of the training and certification, is only in case of schools provided by the vocational education committee. You may have other schools and other courses supplied by other people which do not qualify for the standard set up by the Minister. The amendment if it were accepted, would simply mean that the Minister may make regulations in relation to the training and certification of teachers in other schools and courses than those provided under the Act. Some may be approved by the Minister as satisfying the requirements and yet may not be provided by a vocational education committee. I therefore move to delete these words which limit the powers of the Minister in respect to the training and certification of teachers.

Professor O'Sullivan

I have an objection to the principle of this amendment. It may be that there are a number of unprovided schools, and that attendance at these schools would be a proper method of fulfilling the obligation imposed by the Act between the ages of fourteen and sixteen. I should take power by this amendment to make internal regulations for a purely private institution of that kind. I feel that would be wrong in principle, and would create a great deal of trouble. It raises a very fundamental principle as far as I am concerned. Furthermore, supposing a person satisfies this Act by attending a secondary school, I would have power given by this Act—purely a vocational Act—mainly directed, to schools set up for purely vocational purposes—to upset the whole established system so far as these other schools are concerned. I quite admit that from some points of view a case has been put forward for the amendment, but the little to be gained in that respect would, to my mind, be entirely counteracted by the very great question of principle that arises.

Mr. Johnson

I do not desire to raise any question of principle, and in view of these circumstances I will not press the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sections 112, 113, 114 and 115 put and agreed to.

Mr. Milroy

I move:—

Before Section 116, and in Part X., to insert a new section as follows:—

116.—(1) In this section

the expression "the Dublin Act" means the Local Government (Dublin) Act, 1930 (No. of 1930);

the expression "the City Corporation" means the Right Honourable the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of Dublin;

the expression "the Borough Corporation" means the Corporation of Dun Laoghaire;

the expression "the City vocational education area" means the vocational education area which is coterminous with the county borough of Dublin;

the expression "the City vocational education committee" means the vocational education committee for the City vocational educational area;

the expression "the Borough vocational education area" means the vocational education area which is coterminous with the Borough of Dun Laoghaire;

the expression "the Borough vocational education committee" means the vocational education committee for the Borough vocational education area;

the expression "the County vocational education area" means the vocational education area which is coterminous with the County of Dublin exclusive of the Borough of Dun Laoghaire;

the expression "the County vocational education committee" means the vocational education committee for the County vocational education area;

the expression "the added rural area" has the meaning given to it by Section 1 of the Dublin Act.

(2) The following provisions shall have effect in relation to the application of this Act in the county borough of Dublin, that is to say—

(a) the areas which, at the passing of this Act, are respectively the urban district of Pembroke and the urban district of Rathmines and Rathgar shall for the purposes of this Act be deemed to be included in and to form part of the county borough of Dublin as from the passing of this Act;

(b) the added rural area shall, in accordance with the Dublin Act, become included in and form part of the county borough of Dublin on and from the 1st day of April, 1931;

(c) in the construction of references in this Act (including this section) to the county borough of Dublin, whether specifically or as included in a reference to county boroughs generally, regard shall be had to the provisions of paragraph (a) of this sub-section and also to the provisions of the Dublin Act whereby the added rural area becomes included in and forms part of the county borough of Dublin on and from the 1st day of April, 1931;

(d) in the preparation, consideration and approval of the annual scheme for the City vocational education area for the local financial year commencing on the 1st day of April, 1931, regard shall be had to the fact that the added rural area will be included in the county borough of Dublin in that year;

(e) Section 24 of the Dublin Act shall not apply to any officer of the council of the urban district of Pembroke or of the council of the urban district of Rathmines and Rathgar or of a committee of either of those councils who is transferred by that Act to the service of the City Corporation and is subsequently transferred by this Act to the service of the City vocational education committee and in lieu thereof it is hereby enacted that every such officer shall, while he is in the service of the City Corporation by virtue of his said transfer thereto, perform the same duties and be entitled to the same salary and emoluments and the same conditions of service as he performed and was entitled to in the service of the said council or committee immediately before his said transfer therefrom;

(f) during the period between the day which is the appointed day for the purposes of the Dublin Act and the day which is the appointed day for the purposes of Part VII of this Act, the City Corporation shall itself administer without the intervention of any committee the services which will become transferred on the last-mentioned appointed day to the City vocational education committee by virtue of this Act;

(g) sub-sections (1) and (2) of Section 40 of the Dublin Act shall not apply in relation to the election of the members of the City vocational education committee;

(h) at the first meeting of the City vocational education committee the Dublin City Manager and Town Clerk shall act as secretary to such committee.

(3) The following provisions shall have effect in relation to the application of this Act in the Borough of Dun Laoghaire, that is to say—

(a) for the purposes of this Act the Borough of Dun Laoghaire shall be deemed to come into existence on the passing of this Act;

(b) Section 24 of the Dublin Act shall not apply to any officer of the council of the urban district of Blackrock, the council of the urban district of Dun Laoghaire or the council of the urban district of Dalkey or of any committee of any of those councils who is transferred by that Act to the services of the Borough Corporation and is subsequently transferred by this Act to the service of the borough vocational education committee and in lieu thereof it is hereby enacted that every such officer shall, while he is in the service of the Borough Corporation by virtue of this said transfer thereto, perform the same duties and be entitled to the same salary and emoluments and the same conditions of service as he performed and was entitled to in the service of the said council or committee immediately before his said transfer therefrom;

(c) during the period between the day which is the appointed day for the purposes of the Dublin Act and the day which is the appointed day for the purposes of Part VII. of this Act, the Borough Corporation shall itself administer without the intervention of any committee the services in the Borough of Dun Laoghaire (other than the area which is at the passing of this Act the urban district of Killiney and Ballybrack) which will become transferred on the last-mentioned appointed day to the Borough vocational education committee by virtue of this Act.

(d) Section 48 of the Dublin Act shall not apply in relation to the election of the members of the Borough vocational education committee;

(e) at the first meeting of the Borough vocational education committee the Dun Laoghaire Borough Manager and Town Clerk shall act as secretary to such committee.

(4) The following provisions shall have effect in relation to the application of this Act in the county of Dublin, that is to say—

(a) Section 20 of the Dublin Act shall not apply in respect of any officer of the council of the county of Dublin or of any joint committee of such council and the council of an urban district who is transferred by this Act to the services of the County vocational education committee;

(b) in the construction of references in this Act (including this section) to the county of Dublin whether specifically or as included in a reference to counties generally, regard shall be had to the provisions of the Dublin Act whereby the added rural area is transferred from the county of Dublin to the county borough of Dublin on and from the 1st day of April, 1931;

(c) in the preparation, consideration and approval of the annual scheme for the County vocational education area for the local financial year commencing on the 1st day of April, 1931, regard shall be had to the fact that the added rural area will not be included in the county of Dublin in that year.

(5) Sub-sections (1) and (2) of Section 18 of the Cork City Management Act, 1929 (No. 1 of 1929) shall not apply in relation to the election of the members of the vocational education committee for the vocational education area which is coterminous with the county borough of Cork.

I also propose to move the following amendment:—

To insert before sub-section (5) of the proposed new section a new sub-section as follows:—

(5) The City vocational education committee shall have the same powers of granting compensation in respect of loss of employment to such of its employees (other than officers) as were, immediately before the day which is the appointed day for the purposes of Part VII of this Act, employees of the City Corporation as the City Corporation would have had if such employees had remained in its employment, and for that purpose the following provisions shall have effect, that is to say—

(a) every such employee shall be entitled to reckon his employment by the City Corporation and also his employment (if any) by the council of the urban district of Pembroke or the council of the urban district of Rathmines and Rathgar as employment by the City vocational education committee, and

(b) Section 53 of the Act of 1925 shall, in relation to such employees only, apply to the City vocational, education committee as if that committee was a local body, such as is mentioned in that section but with the modification that references in that section to Section 50 of that Act shall be construed as references to the provisions of this Act which are enacted in substitution for the said Section 50.

This is a fairly long amendment but I think an examination of it will indicate that it is necessary for the working of the scheme in the areas referred to. Sub-section (1) of the proposed new section is a series of definitions to explain subsequent references. Sub-section (2) deals with the County Borough of Dublin, sub-section (3) with the Borough of Dun-Laoghaire, and sub-section (4) with the County Dublin. I trust the House will allow me to move after sub-section (4) the new sub-section, (5) which I have referred to. It purposes to secure pension rights which are possessed at present by certain employees who will be transferred under the Bill. If that is agreed to the new sub-section (6) will have reference to the county borough of Cork.

Sub-section (2) paragraph (a) is necessary in order to have the whole country divided on the passing of this Bill into the vocational education areas in which the Bill will become operative on the appointed day. Paragraphs (b) and (c) of sub-section (2) are in accordance with Section 17 of the Local Government (Dublin) Bill, which defers until 1st April, 1931, the inclusion of the added rural areas in the county borough of Dublin. Paragraph (d) is consequential upon (b) in that sub-section.

The meaning of paragraph (e) is that this Bill legislates specifically for the transfer of officers of the technical instruction committees on the appointed day to the new vocational education committees. The Local Government (Dublin) Bill also legislates specifically for the transfer of officers of the Urban District Councils of Pembroke and Rathmines and Rathgar, and of committees thereof, to the City of Dublin. The amendment is designed to ensure that the officers of the technical instruction committees of these councils shall be transferred to the County Borough Vocational Education Committee in accordance with the provisions of this Bill. Paragraph (f) is designed to ensure that some authority shall be legally entitled to take control of technical education in the new City of Dublin during the period between the appointed day under the Greater Dublin Bill and the appointed day under this Bill.

With reference to paragraph (g), as Section 40 of the Local Government (Dublin) Bill does not require members of the City Council to be elected on committees, and Sections 8 and 45 of this Bill require the representation of such councillors on vocational education committees, this amendment is necessary to bring Dublin into line with the rest of the Saorstát.

Paragraph (h) is also designed to assist in that purpose. Sub-section (3) deals with the application of the measure to the Borough of Dun Laoghaire, and paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) make provision for the Borough of Dun Laoghaire similar to the provisions made in paragraphs (a), (e) and (f) of sub-section (2) for the County Borough of Dublin. Senators will notice that in paragraph (c) of this sub-section there is special reference to the urban district of Killiney and Ballybrack. The paragraph reads:—

"during the period between the day which is the appointed day for the purposes of the Dublin Act and the day which is the appointed day for the purposes of Part VII. of this Act, the Borough Corporation shall itself administer without the intervention of any committee the services in the Borough of Dun Laoghaire (other than the area which is at the passing of this Act the urban district of Killiney and Ballybrack)...."

The reason for that is that there are no services to be transferred from this urban district.

Paragraphs (d) and (e) make similar provision for the Borough of Dun Laoghaire as paragraphs (g) and (h) of sub-section (2) make for the County Borough of Dublin. The reason for sub-section (4) is that Section 20 of the Dublin Act provides for the apportionment of officers and servants whose duties relate wholly or in part to the added rural areas between the County Council and the City Corporation. The application of this provision to the City and County of Dublin is not considered necessary in connection with this Vocational Education Bill, as the duties of the staff of the County Dublin Joint Committee for Technical Instruction are not confined wholly or in part to the added rural areas.

Paragraph (b) and (c) of sub-section (4), taken together, are necessary in order to make clear the position that the added rural areas— areas to be added to the Borough of Dun Laoghaire—will not be included in the County Borough of Dublin until the 1st April next. There has been circulated the amendment to be inserted before sub-section (5) of this proposed new section. The purpose of that amendment is to reserve certain pension rights to certain employees who are to be transferred. I take it that the House will agree to my moving that amendment in that order.

I now come to sub-section (6), which reads:

Sub-sections (1) and (2) of Section 18 of the Cork City Management Act, 1929 (No. 1 of 1929) shall not apply in relation to the election of the members of the vocational education committee for the vocational education area which is coterminous with the County Borough of Cork.

That is similar to paragraph (g) of sub-section (2) in reference to Dublin; that is to say, this sub-section will not require the election of members of the City Council on these vocational education committees. I move the amendment.

Mr. Comyn

What is the meaning of paragraph (e) of sub-section (2) of amendment 30? It reads:

Section 24 of the Dublin Act shall not apply to any officer of the council of the urban district of Pembroke or of the council of the urban district of Rathmines and Rathgar or of a committee of either of those councils...

We would like to know why.

Professor O'Sullivan

The Local Government (Dublin) Bill legislates, as Senator Milroy pointed out, for the transfer of officers of the urban district councils of Rathmines and Rathgar, and Pembroke and committees thereof to the City of Dublin. This provides for the transfer of the officers to the vocational education committees. I am accepting the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Sections 116 to 123, inclusive, agreed to.

FIRST SCHEDULE.

Mr. Milroy

I beg to move the following amendment:

To delete the Schedule and to substitute therefor a new Schedule as follows:—

"FIRST SCHEDULE.

The Scheduled Urban Districts.

The Borough of Drogheda.

The Borough of Dun Laoghaire.

The Urban District of Galway.

The Borough of Sligo.

The Urban District of Tralee.

The Borough of Wexford."

On the passing of the Local Government (Dublin) Bill the Borough of Dun Laoghaire will include the urban districts of Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire and distinct references to these districts will not be necessary in the Schedule. Similarly, no special name for the urban districts of Pembroke, Rathmines and Rathgar is required in view of their inclusion in the Borough of Dublin. It is thought desirable to refer to Drogheda, Sligo and Wexford as boroughs in order to preserve the continuity of the title guaranteed by the Local Government Act.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Johnson

I move:—

To insert in the appropriate place the words "The Urban District of Bray."

In discussing the question yesterday of Tipperary and district and Bray and district the Minister pointed out the difficulty surrounding the proposal being made but he intimated that he was prepared to agree if the Seanad was of that intention or desire that the present urban district of Bray might be scheduled as an urban district for the purposes of this Act. The effect would be that the present technical education activities being carried on very successfully in Bray, but at present covering a wider area than Bray Urban District, might be continued in so far as Bray itself is concerned. The local technical committee desires that that should be accepted and there is a very strong argument for some such provision. As the Minister has indicated his willingness to agree to this proposal with such consequential amendments as may be necessary in the other parts of the Bill I do not think it is necessary to enlarge on the case in favour of the amendment.

Mr. Comyn

I would like to know whether this covers the point that was made earlier on the Committee Stage with regard to the district of North Wicklow.

Professor O'Sullivan

No, it includes only the urban district of Bray.

Mr. Comyn

Will it be possible for the Minister to deal with the district in Tipperary and the district in Wicklow which we referred to earlier in this debate, and in which a very successful technical scheme is working?

Professor O'Sullivan

There will be no such committee if this is accepted in existence in North Wicklow, because that is practically Bray, with a very small rural addition. So far as Tipperary is concerned, I indicated yesterday that I would be quite agreeable if Senator Hooper would move a general amendment on report giving the Minister power to require a vocational education committee to appoint a sub-committee for a certain district. That will not meet the Tipperary case at all to the extent that the Bray case is met. That is not due to any unwillingness on my part; it is inherent in the difficulties of the situation owing to the fact that the rural district in Bray counts for very little as far as the present scheme is concerned. I think there are more people in the rural district than in the town of Tipperary. It is not possible to solve the Tipperary question on the same lines, though I indicated to Senator Hooper yesterday that I was prepared to accept a general amendment. The Minister may then require the Tipperary Education Committee to set up a specific sub-committee for rural and urban Tipperary.

Mr. Comyn

I can understand that solving the Tipperary part of the problem, but is there no way of solving the Wicklow part of the problem except this way? The Minister said very fairly the Wicklow problem is not solved altogether. There is some part of the Wicklow area that may not come in.

Professor O'Sullivan

It goes into the County Wicklow; that must be so.

Amendment put, and agreed to.

Professor O'Sullivan

I may mention that there will be a number of consequential amendments necessary.

Question—"That the First Schedule, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.

Question—"That the Second and Third Schedules stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.

FOURTH SCHEDULE.

County Boroughs and Urban Districts Referred to in Parts V. and VI. of this Act.

The County Borough of Cork.

The County Borough of Dublin.

The County Borough of Limerick.

The County Borough of Waterford.

Blackrock Urban District.

Dun Laoghaire Urban District.

Pembroke Urban District.

Rathmines and Rathgar Urban District.

Mr. Milroy

I move amendment 33:—

Fourth Schedule. To delete the Schedule and to substitute therefor a new Schedule as follows:—

"FOURTH SCHEDULE.

County or other Boroughs referred to in Parts V and VI of this Act.

The County Borough of Cork.

The County Borough of Dublin.

The County Borough of Limerick.

The County Borough of Waterford.

The Borough of Dun Laoghaire."

The inclusion under the Local Government (Dublin) Bill of the urban districts of Pembroke, Rathmines and Rathgar in the County Borough of Dublin and of the urban districts of Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire in the new coastal borough area renders this amendment necessary.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Fifth Schedule and the Title agreed to.

The Seanad went out of Committee.

Bill reported with amendments.

Report Stage ordered for Wednesday, 9th July.