Vocational Education Bill, 1930-Report Stage.
I move:
Section 21, sub-section (2). To insert before the sub-section two new sub-sections as follows:—
(2) The Minister may from time to time by order require a Vocational Education Committee to appoint a sub-committee to exercise and perform in relation to any part of the vocational education area of such committee such specified powers, duties and functions of such committee as in the opinion of the Minister can be better or more conveniently exercised or performed by a sub-committee, and whenever any such order is made and in force it shall be the duty of such committee to comply with the requirements thereof.
(3) The Minister may, as and when he thinks fit, revoke an order made by him under the foregoing sub-section, and thereupon such order shall cease to be in force.
This amendment has been put down in agreement with the Minister. It is in substitution of two amendments that were on the Order Paper for the Committee Stage, one in my name and one in the name of Senator O'Connor and Senator Cummins. On that occasion the Minister did not see his way to accept either amendment, and suggested an alternative which takes the form now on the Order Paper. In the interval I had an opportunity of consulting with Senator O'Connor and Senator Cummins and we agreed that the Minister has met our case very fairly indeed. I might say also that that is the view of the people in Tipperary at whose instance the amendments were moved originally. The original amendments asked that the Technical Instruction Committee in Tipperary should be preserved. The case of North Wicklow was met by the inclusion of Bray urban area which will have committees of its own, so that Tipperary was the only case outstanding. We are of opinion that the Minister met us very fairly, and we are obliged to him for doing so.
I am interested in the amendment, and I am in agreement with what Senator Hooper has stated with reference to the manner in which the Minister has met us.
Amendment put and agreed to
I move.
Section 45, sub-section (3). To delete the words "then current local financial year" in line 65 and to substitute therefor the words "year commencing on the 1st day of April, 1931."
Section 45 did not appear in the original draft of the Bill and was only inserted, I think, on the Committee Stage. It makes a great improvement in the Bill, as far as the ratepayers are concerned, and I am thankful to the Minister for giving such a concession. It practically establishes a special sub-committee known as the estimates sub-committee, composed entirely of members of the County Council. They will have a veto on any increased expenditure that may be proposed by the Vocational Education Committee. As far as it goes it gives control over expenditure to the representatives of the ratepayers. However, there is one part of sub-section (3) which provides that the minimum amount shall be the amount that was expended in the previous year. The effect of my amendment would be to remove that and to substitute the minimum that was already in the Bill, that is, the amount leviable on the 1st day of April, 1931, as the minimum. It might happen that in some years the Vocational Education Committee might put forward some very special scheme of a useful character which might induce the estimates sub-committee to approve of it, but there will be the danger that if they consent in any one year to an increase they will bind themselves perpetually to that increased amount, no matter what schemes may be put forward in subsequent years. I think the Minister ought to rely on the good will of the estimates sub-committee to do the right thing when a desirable scheme is put forward by increasing the amount of the contribution of the ratepayers, and I submit that the way to do that is to accept my amendment.
I am glad the Senator recognises that a very considerable step was taken to meet what I call the legitimate claims of the rate striking authority in the section as it stands, which as he has correctly pointed, out was not in the original Bill. Representations were made to me, particularly by representatives of the agricultural community, and it was largely in deference to their wishes that I put in this new section, and also because I was satisfied that the section in its original form in the Bill did not do either of two things. It rather limited the choice of proper people for the education committee and it did not give effective financial control into the hands of the elected local representatives. As the Senator pointed out, that has been met to a large extent in the section as it now stands. There are, I would point out, many safeguards —some people think far too many —in the Bill as it stands. In the first place there is no unlimited power given even to the estimates sub-committee as to the increase they may vote. As Senators will see, that is strictly limited to the figures set down in the schedule. Secondly there is a veto to be exercised on any increase given by the estimates sub-committee; and thirdly I may say that if in any year the Vocational Education Committee think the rate is no longer required they can undoubtedly diminish the amount; and furthermore, if the Minister is satisfied that the rate is no longer required he can also cut down the expenses of the scheme. It might be suspected that the Minister would not cut the local rate, but if he cut down the rate under the general conception of the finances of the Bill, on the grounds that it was unnecessary to retain it, in any given year, he also cuts down the amount of the central contribution, and for some Senators that consideration might weigh more strongly with him.
When a scheme is set going and when it requires a certain amount of money made up of the local contribution and the State contribution, if the amendment is carried there would be nothing to prevent the sub-committee in two or three years time, or even next year, getting away from the scheme by withdrawing a certain portion of the finances. That is a subtle way, it might be suggested, to shift the burden on to the central authority and to get an increased contribution from the State in the hope that the Minister, who is assumed to be keenly interested in the success of the educational scheme, will make up this difference by an increased State contribution. I think once an obligation is entered into, once undertakings are made, it is only reasonable there should be some kind of security for those engaged on the scheme and also for the scheme itself in its further working out. If it is possible for people to cut down the sum in the way suggested by this amendment there would not be such security. The temptation would probably be there, and it would be hard to resist it, to cut down the local contribution and leave it to the Government to make up whatever deficit there may be. I cannot conscientiously recommend the Seanad to accept this amendment.
Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 12; Níl, 24.
Tá
- R.A. Butler.
- Michael Comyn, K.C.
- James Dillon.
- J.C. Dowdall.
- Michael Fanning.
- Sir John Keane.
- Thomas Linehan.
- Seán E. MacEllin.
- Colonel Moore.
- Joseph O'Connor.
- M.F. O'Hanlon.
- James J. Parkinson.
Níl
- Sir Edward Coey Bigger.
- Samuel L. Brown, K.C.
- Miss Kathleen Browne.
- Joseph Connolly.
- Mrs. Costello.
- John C. Counihan.
- The Countess of Desart.
- James G. Douglas.
- Thomas Farren.
- Thomas Foran.
- P.J. Hooper.
- Right Hon. Andrew Jameson.
- Thomas Johnson.
- Cornelius Kennedy.
- The McGillycuddy of the Reeks.
- James MacKean.
- John MacLoughlin.
- General Sir Bryan Mahon.
- Seán Milroy.
- James Moran.
- Joseph O'Doherty.
- Siobhán Bean an Phaoraigh.
- Thomas Toal.
- Richard Wilson.
Amendment declared lost.
I move:—
Section 53. To add at the end of the section a new sub-section as follows:—
"(2) Any moneys provided by the Oireachtas under this section shall be distributed on the following basis:—
(a) to supplement by twenty-five per cent. the amount provided from the rates by each local committee;
(b) the balance to be allocated under a scheme prepared by the Minister, the object of which shall be to assist the more necessitous areas."
The object of this amendment is to try and secure a compromise in the matter of the finances, and a reduction in the burden on the ratepayers, and also to some extent to ensure equality of service. The Minister, I think, took me rather hardly to task the last time when I suggested that we would under this scheme provide indifferent services in some areas. I base that argument on the fact that a penny rate in Kerry will produce 2d. per head of the population, while in Meath it will produce 4d. Working out those figures on a 4d. rate, you are in Kerry receiving 8d. per head of the population, and in Meath 1/4. Then under the present proposal of fifty-fifty you proceed to double that, and get 2/8 per head of the population in Meath, and 1/4 in County Kerry. How even any magician can give equality of service from that I cannot see. The teacher is paid more or less a standard rate and the pupils should, roughly speaking, receive the same class of service.
I realise that the Minister made certain commitments in this matter. He is to a certain extent bound by a statement already made. There is also this to be said, that certain inducements may be necessary to persuade local authorities to increase their contribution. I suggest an increase of 25 per cent. would be sufficient, and, therefore, under this scheme if the amendment is carried the Central Fund will supplement local contributions to the extent of 25 per cent. The remainder of the contribution of the Central Fund will then be devoted to equalising the burden on some scheme suggested by the Minister. I have left it vague as regards the scheme, but he will have regard to the position of the poorer districts. That is what is intended by the amendment to be secured, and if, as drafted, it does not seem to secure that, if the Minister accepts the principle his advisers could put it in proper form. I hope the Seanad will realise the importance of the principle underlying this matter, as at present the whole Bill will break down on the question of finance, and I think the House wants the scheme to work as fairly as possible.
I do not think the Seanad is quite alive to the position of the poorer counties under this scheme. Senator Sir John Keane has made it as plain as he possibly could. It must be remembered that these poorer counties have probably borrowed up to the limit of their borrowing powers, and they can only strike a small rate because their valuation is small. They are burdened with arrears of rates and annuities, which mean deductions from the Government grants. I think the Seanad should seriously consider what is proposed in the amendment and give it their support, or some amendment like it, in order to meet the justice of the situation.
I think it is well the Seanad exists in order to examine the financial provisions of Bills put before them. We have had two or three remarkable statements from Ministers in explanation of Bills in the last week. One of them, by the Minister for Education, was that one county strikes a 2d. rate which amounts only to so much, and another county strikes a 2d. rate which amounts to more, and he said he could not remedy that. No one expects him to remedy it, but I think the powers that be should take every opportunity to consider the matter.
Again, he said later that it was primarily and was always intended to be local in its aspect. I quite agree. But where you have extraordinary differences in the money available and in the populations available, that is not a principle which can always hold good without some adjustment. I think there will have to be a larger adjustment than the fifty-fifty which the Minister proposes. Senator Sir John Keane has already suggested an adjustment of the incidence of local taxation. Senator Wilson agreed with him on that. The Minister for Finance told the House that there was no logical basis for the present distribution of the agricultural grant. That was a most extraordinary thing, to admit a continual injustice. How that injustice occurred is, of course, a rather difficult and moot point. It arose, possibly, in connection with the local government administration introduced by the British authorities when they were here. We are deliberately carrying that on year after year. I think the House should remember that in connection with this Bill and not continue the thing for ever. A good deal has been said on the question that local councils will not strike the maximum rate if they are not given a fifty-fifty grant. I do not think that is the case. From what I see in the country districts there is a tremendous demand for increased facilities for education. This Bill not only covers technical education in the towns, but continuation education in the rural areas. In view of that, I do not think that any county council would dare not move with the times so far as raising the rate necessary is concerned. That being so, I see no reason why even if a 25 per cent. grant was given all round as an encouragement, they would not do what they are asked to do and what is necessary. In fact, I think the easiest way to get them not to strike the highest possible rate would be to make them feel a sense of injustice.
Professor O'Sullivan
In the Dáil and in the Seanad I explained generally the financial provisions of this Bill. I indicated that, so far as the present grants are concerned, the whole intention was to stabilise them. When I spoke of a fifty-fifty expenditure I was always referring to the amount of money that would be required to meet future developments. I found, on looking over the country as a whole, that that would be a fair proposition, and I indicated in the Bill what the Government's intention was in that particular respect. I also indicated that in the case of a few schemes, where even if the local authorities struck the highest rate that it would be possible for them to strike under the Bill, a rate, say, of 3d., 4d., or 5d. in the £ —there are a few small schemes and one large scheme, namely, the City of Cork—that proportion could not possibly be maintained. I indicated in the Dáil that any increased grant for such small schemes would not cost the Central Government a considerable amount of money—£3,000 per annum in the first year or two, and if you had the fullest possible development £10,000 would be the very most. On the whole I indicated that for meeting the necessities of future development the fifty-fifty would be the fairer scheme. I was struck, as I indicated in my speech, by the arguments of Senator The McGillycuddy on the last day.
Senator Johnson rightly pointed out that there was nothing in the Bill to prevent the Minister distributing the Government grant on an entirely different system from the fifty-fifty, but that he had bound himself down both here and in the Dáil by his speeches. That being so, and if the Seanad thought well of it, the amendment I have had circulated just now would be acceptable. If an amendment of that kind were inserted in the Bill it would avoid many of the objectionable features that there are in the amendment proposed by Senator Sir John Keane, while it would give the Minister power to pay due consideration to the arguments that are put forward. To a certain extent I may say it is a pointer in the direction of the goal which the amendment moved by Senator The McGillycuddy on the last day and by Senator Sir John Keane to-day aims at. If the Seanad think well of it, I have no objection to the insertion of that amendment in the Bill. What can be done under a scheme of this kind is something like this—I am just giving a sketch and not tying myself down to any particular thing or any particular scheme—it would be possible, for instance, to allocate a certain amount of money on the basis of population in the different counties. It would be possible also to allocate a certain amount of money to the different schemes according to the amount put up locally, and, furthermore, it would be possible to take into account the actual rate, whether it was 1¾d., 2d. or 3d. that was being struck.
I would also like to remind Senators, as I pointed out in the Dáil, that there are already in the Bill other provisions by which some aid at all events could be given to the poorer western counties. I think the amendment meets the situation so far as it can reasonably be met in a Bill of this type.
The amendment that has just been circulated reads:—
Section 53. In page 22 to add a new sub-section as follows:—
"(2) In making such regulations regard may be had to (amongst other things) the following matters:—
(a) the annual local contribution payable to each vocational education committee.
(b) the amount of the rate required to raise such annual local contribution, and
(c) the population of the vocational education area of such committee."
I was going to suggest to the mover of the amendment on the Order Paper that the suggested amendment circulated by the Minister meets the principle which he has advocated. I think it is probably better than that an amendment should be inserted fixing a definite proportion. The amendment of the Minister does suggest a local contribution based upon rateable capacity with an intimation to him that the population in respect to the areas should be taken into account as well as the amount raised by the local rate. I think all these facts would be taken into account by the Minister in making his allocation in the amendment proposed, and yet we avoid the necessity which, I think, is undesirable, of putting in this figure of 25 per cent. I am afraid the tendency might be to let the 25 per cent. be a kind of stable figure, and that the balances would be given mainly to the necessitous areas, and it would be for the Minister to determine that, whereas on the open proposal which the Minister has circulated you have every year the influence of the Dáil. If it desires that there should be an extension of the Governmental grant, it can indicate how it desires the extension should be made. I think that we should not tie the Minister down even by this suggestion of 25 per cent. I would urge that the amendment circulated by the Minister is the more suitable, and is in accord with the principles desired to be inserted by the mover of the amendment on the Order Paper.
I think that on the last occasion the Minister was impressed by the arguments addressed to him upon the financial provisions of the Bill. I think he did see, as he must have seen, that the Bill as it stands would be a great injustice to the farmers of the country. I am now surprised therefore that the Minister did not on the last occasion accept the logical and straightforward amendment that we proposed, namely, that a flat rate should be struck for the various counties and that the balance should be provided by the State. That would be a fair and simple way of dealing with the question. The Minister has now, in what I suggest is a roundabout way, attempted to arrive at the same conclusion and, strange though it may seem, I am in favour of the Minister's amendment. I would, however, suggest a certain modification in the amendment, and it is this: It leaves it to the discretion of the Minister, and I suggest that the Minister should alter the phraseology of the amendment by striking out the word "may" and substituting the word "shall." It would then read: "(2) In making such regulations regard shall be had". I wonder whether the Minister would accede to any proposal at all made from these benches, or whether he will give us credit for any suggestions that we might make or any improvements suggested from these benches, or whether he considers that every amendment from these benches is a hostile or obstructive amendment. Is he of opinion that no good can come out of Nazareth? Is that his point of view? We claim credit, at any rate, for having set him right on the financial clauses of his Bill.
In regard to Senator Sir John Keane's amendment, I have only just to say that with regard to clause (a) of his amendment which is intended to supplement by 25 per cent. the amount provided from the rates by each local committee, we think, without dogmatising over it, that perhaps there may be some areas that will not need this contribution of 25 per cent. I think the Minister's amendment, which was circulated under pressure from Senators Linehan and O'Connor, and many other Senators, meets the case. It shows that we on this side of the House have set him right on the finances of the Bill.
I suggest to Senator Comyn that he should withdraw his amendment to the amendment to substitute the word "shall" for "may." I think we may leave the matter safely to the Vocational Education Committee.
Knowing how hard it is to get any concession I am grateful, but the Minister could do a great deal more if he wished. I ask leave to withdraw my amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Professor O'Sullivan
Before the other amendment is put I hope no Senator will vote for it on the grounds that it is the same amendment in a roundabout way as Senator Comyn moved the last day. I should not like to think that Senators are accepting this amendment on the ground that it aims at the same thing. I would wish to disabuse Senators of that particular view. I can assure Senator Comyn that I would agree to accept an amendment from any part of the House if I thought it reasonable. This amendment aims at only one thing and that is the distribution of the State grant. There is no suggestion that the State grant is in any way inceased or that I intend to increase the fifty-fifty for the country as a whole. That still remains the purpose but it deals with the redistribution of that grant. I think it does meet the principle that was behind some of the views put forward on the last day and very reasonably put forward by Senators. I am not aware that there was any particular pressure by the Seanad as a whole. for I must say that the Seanad as a whole treated me leniently in the matter.
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment:—
Section 96. To add at the end of the section a new sub-section as follows:—
(4) All moneys raised by a rate struck by a local authority for the service of the year beginning on the 1st day of April, 1930, and which but for this Act would have been paid to a committee appointed or partly appointed by such local authority to exercise and perform functions, powers and duties transferred by this Part of this Act to a vocational education committee and would have been applicable by such first-mentioned committee to the purposes of such functions, powers and duties, shall (so far as such moneys are not paid to such committee before the appointed day) be paid by such local authority to the said vocational education committee."
Professor O'Sullivan
This amendment is necessary to enable certain balances that would normally be standing to the credit of the committee to be paid to that body. They may not be collected, and very often they are not paid over until July. This is only to make sure that the amount will be paid over. This is a general amendment, but it has particular reference to the case of Bray.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Government amendment:—
Section 105, sub-section (1). After the word "officer" in line 46 to insert the words "or a servant" and before the word "and" in line 47 to insert the words "or servant (as the case may be)."
Professor O'Sullivan
The Seanad will remember that on the last occasion on Committee Stage I accepted an amendment from Senator Johnson. This is really consequential upon the acceptance of that amendment. It deals with the dismissal of a servant as well as an officer. It merely introduces the word "servant" in the appropriate clause.
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment:—
Section 111, sub-section (2). To delete the word "not" in line 25 and to substitute therefor the words "less than the salary to which such teacher is entitled."
Professor O'Sullivan
This is merely carrying out a pledge made in the Seanad on the last occasion when Senator Johnson moved an amendment that I accepted in principle. I think the words in my amendment are almost identical. If there is any change it was merely necessitated in drafting.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Amendment 7 not moved.
Government amendment:—
New section. After section 116 (inserted in Committee) to insert a new section as follows:—
"117. (1) In this section the expression "the Bray Council" means the council of the urban district of Bray,
the expression "the Bray vocacational education committee" means the vocational education committee for the vocational education area which is coterminous with the urban district of Bray,
the expression "the North Wicklow committee" means the joint committee appointed for the purposes of technical instruction under the Act of 1899 by the council of the County of Wicklow and the Bray Council.
(2) The following provisions shall have effect in relation to the application of Part VII of this Act to the North Wicklow committee, that is to say,
(a) the functions, powers and duties which, immediately before the appointed day, are exercised and performed through or by the North Wicklow committee shall, in so far as they relate to the urban district of Bray, be transferred by section 95 of this Act to the Bray vocational education committee and shall, in so far as they relate to any other part of the functional area of the North Wicklow committee, be transferred by the said section 95 to the Wicklow county vocational education committee;
(b) for the purposes of the said Part VII (except section 95), the Bray vocational education committee shall be deemed to be the vocational education committee to which the functions, powers and duties exercised and performed through or by the North Wicklow committee are transferred by the said section 95 and the said Part VII (except section 95) shall have effect accordingly;
(c) during the period commencing on the day which is the appointed day for the purposes of the said Part VII and ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, the Bray vocational education committee shall provide throughout the functional area of the North Wicklow committee the services which the last-mentioned committee would have been liable to provide in that area if this Act had not been passed;
(d) at the first meeting of the Bray vocational education committee the town clerk of the Bray Council shall act as secretary to such committee.
(3) The following provisions shall have effect while and for so long as the Bray Council continues to be dissolved under an Order made by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health before the passing of this Act, that is to say—
(a) the functions of the Bray Council in relation to the election of members of the Bray vocational education committee shall be performed by the person who is for the time being performing in consequence of the said order the duties of the Bray Council;
(b) so much of section 8 of this Act as would require any members of the Bray vocational education committee to be members of the Bray Council shall not have effect;
(c) the functions of the estimates sub-committee (within the meaning of section 45 of this Act) of the Bray vocational education committee shall be performed by the said person who is for the time being performing in consequence of the said order the duties of the Bray Council."
Professor O'Sullivan
This is a consequential amendment made necessary by the scheduling of Bray as an urban district vocational area. The amendment was necessary because the general provision as regards transfer did not strictly apply and would not apply without modification to Bray, Bray at present, as pointed out on the last occasion, being knit on as part of County Wicklow. These additional provisions are necessary to secure the proper scheduling of Bray and to bring about the necessary modifications consequent thereon.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Report Stage agreed to.
