Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Dec 1930

Vol. 14 No. 5

Private Business. - Sea Fisheries Bill, 1930—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be read a Second Time."

Minister for Lands and Fisheries (Mr. Lynch)

This Bill is divided into five parts, Parts II., III. and IV. being the most important portions. Part II. deals with certain relations between my Department and the new Sea Fisheries Association. Part III. deals with the licensing of auctioneers and salesmen, and Part IV. with the conditions under which fish must be kept for sale in retail shops. The necessity for the Bill, in so far as it affects the Association, is, first of all, to enable me to hand over certain assets which are at present vested in me to the Association in order to enable them to carry out the task committed to them, and, secondly, to strengthen the powers of the Association to enforce the hire purchase contracts which we hope will be entered into by the members. Clause 2 (a) enables me to transfer the boats and gear in the hands of the Department. Clause 2 (b) enables me to transfer the sums outstanding and due to the Department in respect of loans previously made. That does not mean that any borrowers who do not consent to this arrangement will be transferred to the Association against their will. I believe myself that the method of repayment of loans under the new arrangement will be such as will make practically all the fishermen borrowers very anxious to avail of the new conditions.

Possibly, Senators may not know that the present arrangement for the repayment of loans to the Department is by way of half-yearly instalments. In the case of the bigger borrowers, especially when there was a bad slump in the fishing business, it was very difficult to meet these instalments and, of course, many of them have fallen very badly into arrears. Under the new system they will pay the Association out of the catch. In fact, what will happen is this, that the fisherman borrower will hand over his fish to the Association to be sold through the agent of the Association, who will deduct a certain percentage from the cash received for the catch to repay the loan with interest, and for certain other purposes as outlined in the rules. One cannot say definitely, of course, whether all the borrowers will accept this. At any rate I could not say definitely, because the Association would have to be consulted in the matter as to whether or not they will take every borrower. I only wish to point out that no borrower will have his liabilities transferred from the Department unless he is willing. There is just an element of compulsion which may enter into the matter, where outstanding loans are in arrear and where they are being written down, as I propose to do in a Bill which will be introduced early next session, immediately after the Christmas Recess. Certain arrears will be written down very considerably, and a condition of the writing down may be that future payment of any amount left over will be made to the Association. The second purpose, I pointed out, of the Bill in so far as it affected the Association is to strengthen the powers of the Association in dealing with persons who contract with them under hire purchase. Clause 3 should be read in connection with Section 6 of the rules of the Association dealing with the hiring of fishing boats and gear with the option of purchase. I should first of all like to say that the word "hire" does not mean in any sense that a fisherman borrower might go on paying for ever and never become the proprietor of the boat or gear for which he is down as borrower. You will see, under the paragraph lettered (j) on page 14, that after the borrower has paid up the full amount with interest he becomes the absolute owner of the boat and gear himself. That is the method adopted by the directors, and is considered to be the best way of dealing with the point. The present system is that each borrower should find two solvent sureties.

Under the new scheme the borrower will be given the loan for the boat or gear without any other surety than his own and the surety of the catch. I believe this will be loyally worked by the general body of fishermen, but the directors of the Association felt that they wanted fairly strong powers to deal with the few persons there might be who would attempt to defraud the Association, and, as I contemplate, the person who has got a loan from the Association, who contracts with them to hand over his fish and who, instead of doing that, goes into some other port where an agent of the Association may not be and sells there instead of putting his fish into the hands of the Association so that they might sell and deduct the percentage to which they might be entitled under the contract.

I do not think there is any necessity to deal in any great detail with the character of the Association and the rules. I might say that the rules are practically as handed to me by the directors of the Association. I was against any avoidable interference with the rules because I felt that this was their method of dealing with the problem. The objects of the Association are set out at great length in Rule 4. I think they cover any activity necessary for the development of the industry. The organisation contemplated is directed of necessity, for the moment at any rate, by a central committee. There has been in the past no co-operative unit through which you could build from below. We are building from the top downwards. Provision is made under Rule 140 whereby regional committees may be formed and if there is any local desire for them eventually probably you will have an association formed of a great many local branches affiliated to that central body at the top. In the meantime, pending the setting up of these regional committees the Rules from 130 to 137 show how the members of the committee will be elected. It is a fairly cumbersome method and will probably be expensive, but the directors think it is worth while.

In addition, there is provision made for payment of expenses for representatives of the fishermen from different areas when they come to attend a general meeting of the Association. The aim of this provision is to give as far as possible every member a direct interest and influence in the society. It will also probably have the effect of making the committee more inclined to listen to propositions put up from the various branches in the country.

Coming to Part III of the Bill, Clause 5 deals with the licensing of auctioneers and salesmen. Perhaps I should first mention that Clause 4 provides that in any area which may be specified the provisions of this part of the Act as to licensing of auctioneers and salesmen will apply, and that its area will first have to be defined as one to which this part of the Act applies. Clause 5 provides that as a condition of being given a licence as auctioneer or salesman, such person will not be otherwise concerned in the fish trade. I anticipate that one of the primary works of the Association will be trying to provide better markets for fish, and markets in which the fish will be sold by auction, or some other method of negotiation, and the object of this part of the Act is to ensure that in every market of importance this transaction will be carried through by persons, and in such a manner as will avoid even the shadow of suspicion. That is not intended to be any reflection on the way business is carried on at the moment, but if there is to be an extension of markets in different parts of the country, I think it desirable that the business of selling fish in these markets should be regulated in a manner above criticism, so that there may be implicit confidence in the case of persons consigning goods from a distance to a particular market.

This part of the Act will not be put in force probably except at the request of the Association or some other responsible party. Part IV deals with the conditions under which fish is to be sold in retail shops. Fish is a very perishable food, and I think it is a matter not only in the interests of the industry, but also in the interests of the public, that it should be kept and sold in a proper hygienic condition. I think, also, that in fact these provisions will be good for the retail trade itself, because when the public feel that the fish is being kept under proper hygienic conditions, I can quite easily imagine that there will be a greater consumption of fish. Clause 12 requires that there shall be a general state of cleanliness, good water supply, and so on; that a fish slab will be provided and that the fish shall be free from contamination. Clause 13 provides also for the avoidance of contamination and the storage of fish, when not actually exposed for sale. Clause 14 provides for the inspection in order to see that these conditions are carried out. These provisions, under the Act, will become operative immediately. I have no intention of starting off an immediate inquisition in the matter. I shall look for an early improvement, but again I should be rather inclined to wait for representations from the Sea Fisheries' Association or some other responsible authority who would have a very direct interest in the conditions under which the fish were sold. I do not mean that I intend to let this portion of the Act become in any sense of the word a dead letter, but it is not my intention that it should be exercised in any way vexatiously.

The only other clause that would call for any comment is Clause 18 which deals with the expenditure incurred in carrying out the Act. So far as expenditure is concerned I do not expect any additional staff will be required for that. We can deal with any inspection necessary under the Bill with the existing staff.

Mr. O'Doherty

I should like to express my appreciation of the Bill as a whole, and I am glad that efforts are being made to deal with the fishing industry in general. There are just a couple of points which I would like the Minister to explain in connection with the administration of Part IV., if the Bill becomes an Act. How do people selling fish from carts in the country districts or small towns fare? Will they be affected under the provisions of Part IV.? Secondly, I would like to know if the Minister intends to enforce sub-section (c) of Clause 13 which states: "There are not at any time on any date in such premises any offals removed from fish on any previous day." It seems to me that that is a pretty difficult matter to enforce. Who is to decide it? Is the inspector the sole arbiter, and must the shopkeeper be bound by his decision? While there are certain features in the Bill which I do not like, generally speaking I am in favour of it.

Mr. Johnson

The Minister is to be congratulated on having introduced this Bill, the general plan of which I give hearty approval to, but there are many details, I think, which would require close examination and consideration before actually passing it. I would like to say that contrary to the views expressed in the other House by certain Deputies I think the Minister is well advised in paying special attention to the retail selling of fish, that is to say, the regulations of sales retail. I am convinced, from some examination and thought about this subject, that until there is a much more regular supply and a satisfactory preparation of fish for the consumer that the demand for fish within this country will be very limited. It will continue to be considered to be a kind of penalty or punishment that people should eat fish, instead of being eagerly sought for. Unfortunately, in many places, indeed, the consumption of fish is looked upon as a kind of penal provision.

I think one of the causes of that is that the method of retailing has been so unregulated that the chances of getting pleasing, edible fish in a small town are scant and until that state of things is remedied and fresh fish in good condition and well served is easily obtainable we shall not have a real demand for fish in this country. I think it is wrong to assume that the development of the fishing industry will have to be dependent upon the sale outside this country. Yet one hears discussions about the fishing industry being necessarily involved in the provision of large fleets of large vessels, which in the present state of the demand within this country means inevitably shipment to England and all the risks that that shipment involves. I think the line the Minister is taking of proceeding to the regulation and improvement of methods of selling retail is a line which will lead to greater demands for fish and, therefore, a more regular market for that which is caught.

The Minister has circulated a copy of the rules of the Sea Fisheries Association. He had told us here that he has accepted these practically as they were submitted to him by the directors. Looking through them, not very closely but still with a certain amount of care, I am inclined to think there should have been more examination by the Minister than he appears to have made. Some of them are rather loose and involve powers which, when coupled with the Bill, may do injustice and may not be satisfactory. I am inclined almost to think that the rules, in view of the powers given to the Association, should be a supplement or a schedule to the Bill. But apart from that, we must have regard to the rules when dealing with the Bill. That involves a certain amount of care in the examination of the Bill. I take Rule 2, the definition of "fresh fish," and the reference in Section 13 regarding a person who offers for sale fresh fish in contravention of the section. Fresh fish is defined as "fish which has not been salted, smoked, cured, or otherwise artificially preserved." I know that it used to be the practice in the case of herrings, and sometimes of mackerel, to add a little salt and to sell them practically as fresh fish. It occurs to me if that practice still prevails that the conditions of Section 13 in respect of some classes of fish can be very easily evaded by the application of a very light scattering of salt or brine upon what is nominally fresh fish. That is a matter of detail, but it ought to be taken into account.

Section 2 gives the Minister power to vest in the society property which he has and which was handed over to him by the Congested Disricts Board on the coming into operation of the Free State. I think it is quite right and desirable that boats and equipment for fishing that have been handed over to him by the Congested Districts Board should be vested in the society in view of the functions they are to perform, but I hesitate very much at paragraph (c) of sub-section 1 which states "any land situate in Saorstát Eireann which is for the time being vested in the Minister by statute, deed, contract or otherwise." The Minister is the Minister for Lands and Fisheries, and while it is not by any means the intention it will be possible under this Bill for agricultural land to be vested in the society. Further, there is no condition in the society's rules, which are not statutory, which would secure that the land which may be handed over by the Minister to the society should be retained and utilised for the purpose of the fishing industry. Therefore, the proposition amounts to this: that any land at present vested in the Minister for Lands and Fisheries may be vested in the society, and the society may do what it wishes with those lands subject, I think, to the sanction of the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Lynch

" And upon such terms and conditions," etc.

Mr. Johnson

I was coming to that, and was going to draw attention to the fact that when the Minister is vesting these lands on certain terms and conditions, the terms and conditions are not to be approved by either House as Orders of this importance usually are. They are not even to be subject to revision within the twenty-one sitting days, or, shall I say, to veto by either House of the Oireachtas as such Orders usually are. I suggest to the Minister, not in respect to the conditions made regarding buildings and other equipment, but certainly in respect to the conditions regarding land that it should not be vested absolutely in the society. I think that is desirable; that he should retain a permanent veto over the disposal of those lands by the society. I think that is a very important point, because the powers that are sought, or that may be given under the Bill—it is not by any means clear what is the intention—would allow any land vested in the Minister, in respect of agriculture, to be handed over to the society, and that the society may, subject to the conditions which may be imposed by the Minister and may be revoked by him, dispose of those lands in such manner as they wish.

I now come to Section 3, which gave rise to a good deal of discussion in the Dáil, where it was modified. I am not sure that the modification amounts to very much. The modification amounted to the deletion of the alternative of imprisonment for a breach of contract on the part of a fisherman. There is left in the Bill a fine of £20, or possibly £60. Whether I am right or not—I speak subject to correction—I think that in common practice—I do not know whether it is by any Interpretation Act or anything of that kind—the alternative to the nonpayment of a fine is imprisonment. But, leaving that aside, I am hesitating about the wisdom of this section for several reasons. I am inclined to approve of it for the reason, quite apart from the merits of this Bill, that it establishes a principle which I do not think has yet been established in law, although in practice it has been admitted in the Trades Unions Acts. It is establishing the principle that a voluntary society is able to make rules and regulations governing its members, which rules imply a contract between the society and the member. Should those rules be altered at any time, then the altered rule remains the contract between the society and the member. The member is bound to that, and a breach of it would involve a fine. It would become practically a penal offence.

That is a very important principle, and I doubt very much whether it has been embodied in any statute hitherto. I am not sure that it is desirable to embody it in any statute. There is just this point, that I am distinctly in favour of the thorough organisation of all kinds of all-embracing voluntary societies dealing with functional activities of an economic character. I am inclined to favour giving such a society that authority over its members, implying almost statutory or at least legal control over the members of a voluntary society. If, after thorough consideration, after weighing the pros. and the cons. of that principle thoroughly in respect to all kinds of associations of this nature it were agreed to, then I think this ought to pass, but I think the principle has not had sufficient examination.

I do not know, for instance, what the position is in regard to the Incorporated Law Society, whether a member who commits a breach is liable to a fine in the courts, or whether it is a statutory offence for a member of that society to break some of its rules. It may be that the principle is embodied in that kind of incorporated organisation. But here we have a society which is not being legalised in the same way and which is not being given a charter. It is a voluntary organisation which compiles its own rules, which rules are registered. When the rules of the society have been registered, then the power to alter them is within the society itself. This gives the society very great authority over its members. I think we, at least, ought to examine closely Section 3 before we approve of it.

Apropos of that, may I call attention to the fact that this section provides for a liability, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £20 on any member who, having agreed with the society to pay, in the manner specified in the contract, certain amounts with regard to the repair and renovation of boats, etc., fails to do so? If he does what the Minister says is possible, goes outside his contract, and sells his fish through an outside agency and in that way evades the obligation of his contract, he becomes liable to a fine. But one of the rules says that the contract itself may be altered. Rule 14 says: "The form and provisions of the said contract ... may be varied at an ordinary or extraordinary meeting of the society provided that intimation of the resolution proposing to vary the same shall have been given in the notice convening the meeting and that such resolution shall be carried by the vote of at least two-thirds of the members voting at such meeting, either personally or by proxy."

Mr. Lynch

That is the voluntary contract for co-operative marketing. It is not concerned with the point that the Senator is dealing with.

Mr. Johnson

I recognise that. There is however a provision regarding an alteration of the rules of the society. In the case of Rule 168, I notice there that there is a difference between a decision to alter the rules and any other decision of the society. The society may at an ordinary meeting decide, by proxy or by person present, to alter any decision previously arrived at, but in regard to the alteration of rules it is provided that a rule shall only be altered by those present and voting, provided notice has been given, but I can find nothing in the rules which defines how the notice shall be given. Proxy voting may be very useful, and it may be necessary in such an organisation as this, but we should be very careful to provide that every member of this society should have notice of the meeting and of the purpose of the meeting, and that there should be no possibility of altering the rules without such notice having been duly given. I may have possibly missed a rule which ensures that notice shall be given, and the manner in which it shall be given. It must be borne in mind that many of these members will be in out of the way places, and notices published in the daily newspapers would not be sufficient.

I come to Part III, dealing with licences to sell fish. I am not quite clear what is the intention, whether it is intended these licences to sell fish, whether by auction or wholesale trade, are only to apply to the selling of fishermen's fish at a fishing station or are to be applicable also to the auctioning of fish in the wholesale market. The section speaks of a district, the district to be defined in an Order the Minister shall make. It then goes on to enact that a licence shall be granted to a person " to sell by auction fresh fish or to act as agent for the sale by wholesale of fresh fish or to do both of those things." It makes it an offence for any person to endeavour to sell fish who has not got a licence. That raises some rather difficult questions. I was speaking first of the selling by auction of fishermen's catches at the station. It is not to be assumed that fishing stations shall be occupied entirely by boats whose owners are members of this association. In fact, it is likely that the larger fishing stations will be mainly manned by boats from other places, and I am very doubtful whether it is wise to make such a limitation as this in paragraph (d), Section 5, that the person to be licensed "is not employed, engaged or otherwise concerned in the sea-fishing industry."

Let us take a place like Killybegs, or possibly Dunmore East. If you had herring fishing and considerable fleets of Scottish or English boats come to fish at those places, it is not desirable, I think, that any local auctioneer who has a fish licence, and who may know nothing about the value of fish in the English market, and may have no direct contact with the markets, shall have a monopoly of the auctioning of that fish. I know that in practice many people who are engaged either as owners or part owners of sea-fishing boats are also auctioneers, and they are in contact with the markets, and know the value of fish in both England and foreign markets, and it is better that such persons well informed about the value of fish should be capable of auctioning the fish on behalf of such fishermen as I have in mind. I am leaving out fish belonging to members of the association. This provision deals not only with the selling of fish belonging to members of the association but fish belonging to others. If perchance this question of licensing applies also to selling by auction in the Dublin market, there, again, I think it is not safe or desirable to limit the granting of licences to persons entirely disconnected with the sea-fishing industry.

It has been found that boat owners are sometimes auctioneers and sometimes also retail fish merchants, and it may appear rather a strange thing, perhaps, but it is true nevertheless, that consigners of fish to the wholesale market often prefer to send to an auctioneer who is acquainted with the business at all sides. I know it is alleged against the fish trade that there is a good deal of chicanery, and a good deal of short knocking occasionally, but on the whole it is found that these merchants who are auctioneers and also fishing-boat owners are better qualified to market fishermen's fish effectively than the casual auctioneer belonging to other trades and who may have a fishing licence but who may not have direct or close contact with the fishing industry. I am doubtful of the wisdom of that particular condition regarding the giving of licences——

Colonel Moore

I do not wish to interrupt the Senator, but as it is now 7 o'clock and we have little more than a quorum I think we might adjourn the discussion till to-morrow.

Cathaoirleach

We have a good deal of work to get through before Christmas.

Mr. Comyn

A point has been raised by Senator Johnson with regard to the transfer of property, and we would like to have time to think it over in order that we might make suggestions to the Minister. It is the one thing of vital importance touched on by Senator Johnson.

Mr. Lynch

Lands under the Land Purchase Acts are not vested in my Department.

Mr. Comyn

No, and therefore this section is wrong. What about the oyster beds, and the foreshore?

Mr. Lynch

This refers only to lands vested in me.

Cathaoirleach

We must allow Senator Johnson to proceed because, as I have said, there is a great deal of work to be got through before Christmas.

Mr. Brown

Is it intended that the Committee Stage of this Bill will be taken before Christmas?

Mr. Lynch

It does not matter a great deal. If it is the wish of the Seanad that the Committee Stage should be postponed until after Christmas, it would not make any vital difference.

Mr. Johnson

I will not be more than a minute. I was going to suggest that the Seanad ought to have the opportunity of dealing thoroughly with the Bill, and if possible, a Special Committee might be set up to examine with the Minister the sections of the Bill and the rules of the Association, with a view to improving the Bill and making it as valuable as possible. I am very desirous the Bill should be a success, and I feel that it has not had consideration of the kind it ought to have had, and we ought not to fail in our duty in that respect. I think the way the Minister has approached the problem is the right one. I think it is well that he should take powers to consider the retailing as well as the wholesaling, and also, to most people the most important but not necessarily the most valuable part, the equipment of the fishermen.

It must be remembered that practically every suggestion that has been made within the last few years regarding the sea fishing problem, the encouragement of fishermen and their training, the provision of boats and gear, facilities in marketing and assistance in the formation of societies—all these are in a cycle that has been gone through. We have had fishing stations established; we have had boats supplied to fishermen, and marketing arrangements and very successful fishing operations instituted, but they have declined, and we are now asked, not, I must say, in this Bill, but in speeches and articles, to go through the same process again.

The assumption is always made that if you put nets in the water the fish will come into them. It is a false assumption, as the Minister knows. My view in this case is that it is almost the whole duty of the Ministry in the matter to eliminate, as far as possible, what is necessarily a gamble; to reduce and eliminate chance as much as possible. The fishing industry is a gamble from the beginning to the end, and the aim should be to reduce that gamble as much as possible— from the attempt to get the fish from the sea to the risk of meeting other fish in the same market with a consequent lamentable fall in prices. I think the Minister, by the process he has adopted, is going a long way to minimise the risks of losses which are natural to the industry. I would like to help the Minister to make the Bill as watertight as possible, so that it will not be necessary to come to the House in a few months to effect amendments which we ought to have foreseen.

Colonel Moore

I suggest that we adjourn now until to-morrow.

Cathaoirleach

I would like to point out that if we adjourn now it will be practically impossible for us to get through our work this side of Christmas.

Mr. Comyn

We have no intention to obstruct business, but we thought it might be convenient for Senators to adjourn now until to-morrow.

Mr. Brown

We ought to deal with one important measure this evening, the Expiring Laws Bill, 1930. It is absolutely necessary that that Bill should pass before the end of this year, and we ought to deal with the Committee Stage this evening.

Colonel Moore

My proposal really means that we adjourn the Sea Fisheries Bill until to-morrow.

Cathaoirleach

If we do not deal with other Bills to-night we will not be able to get through all our work this week, because there is already a lot of work for to-morrow and Friday.

Mr. Brown

There are no amendments to the Expiring Laws Bill and if we pass the Committee Stage now the final stages could be taken to-morrow.

Mr. Comyn

There are several Senators who would like to speak on the Sea Fisheries Bill.

Cathaoirleach

I think it would be better to carry on a little longer. There are very important Bills to be considered. Apart from the Expiring Laws Bill, there is the Education (Provision of Meals) (Amendment) Bill, which is very necessary in the interests of the community. It is a purely formal measure, but, if we do not take it, it will very considerably inconvenience the community.

Mr. Comyn

I propose that we adjourn the consideration of the Sea Fisheries Bill until to-morrow. That will enable Senator Moore to go home. I do not suppose he is very much interested in the Expiring Laws Bill.

Colonel Moore

I beg to second that proposal.

Question put and agreed to.