Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Mar 1931

Vol. 14 No. 12

Central Fund Bill, 1931 (Certified Money Bill)—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Central Fund Bill, 1931, be now read a Second Time."

The Estimates have been circulated, and, looking through them, one finds very little sign, if any, of any change of policy, any variation in policy, on the part of the Government respecting industry, commerce, and agriculture from that which has been prevalent within the last few years. We ought to have some declaration from the Minister as to what the Government is proposing to do to meet the situation that is developing, and that has arisen out of the depression in agriculture, the fall in prices, and the very slow increase in industrial production. It is important that we should face the fact that there is no general improvement, and it cannot be expected that there will be any general improvement in the economic situation of this country on present lines.

We ought to have some sign, particularly in the coming year, that the Government is aware of the need for definite action. Various papers and documents have been circulated, and they are helpful in enabling us to arrive at some appreciation of the economic position. The "Trade Journal" issued in February contains a summary of the crop returns for 1929 and 1930, and it also gives the yield of produce of agricultural crops. The returns do not indicate a state of things agriculturally which would foreshadow anything but a further depression in the general prosperity of the country during the coming year. We find that as compared with 1929 there was a fall of about 100,000 acres of land under tillage. What is much more ominous is that owing to the bad season there was a very considerable fall in the yield of produce of various crops. Only in one case was there any appreciable improvement, and that was with regard to the tonnage of sugar beet as distinct from the sugar content. There was a very serious decline in the total produce. In some cases, too, as farmers will tell us, there was a deterioration in quality. In respect to those things, they could have been counter-balanced if there had been an increase in price, but concurrent with a decline in the tillage area and a decline in yield there has been a fall in price. So far as I can see, that has not yet been arrested; at least, there is no sign of a rise.

Those three or four facts dealing with a basic industry rather warn us that the amount of wealth available for distribution and expenditure within the country during the coming year will be smaller than it has been. One could look at the situation with a certain amount of equanimity if one could see that there was a steady and rapidly increasing output of industrial wealth. It is because of the absence of any rapidly increasing output of productive wealth in industry that I think the Government is failing in its duty towards us by not foreshadowing some economic policy which would balance the inevitable fall in agricultural values following upon the weather conditions of last year. The situation, of course, is much worsened by the fall in prices.

We have had circulated some figures showing the productive output of industry in 1929 as compared with 1926. So far as they have gone they undoubtedly show an improvement between those years, but the improvement is so slight and, in the main productive industries, which are of importance to the masses of the people, the development is so slight that it will take a very long time for development in industrial production to recover and to make the balance as between agricultural and industrial production anything like fair or reasonable. The complaint I have to make is that Ministers, as indicated by the book of Estimates and by their declarations of policy, are not showing that they are aware of the slow development. They are continuing to hope that by the mere development of private industrial activity and private enterprise in profit-seeking activities the country will eventually arrive at a state of prosperity.

If one looks at some of the industries that have been fostered, or in regard to which attempts to foster have been made, it will be found that the growth is slow and the rate of overtaking the importation of commodities has been entirely unsatisfactory. We have instances of the boot and shoe trade and the hosiery and clothing trades. It is not at all hopeful that the slow development of private industries is going to do for these industries and, incidentally, for national prosperity what has been hoped for and expected by exponents, more particularly the chief opponents of the Government, when they relied upon protective tariffs. I have supported protective tariffs, and I do still support protective tariffs, but I am entirely averse to the notion that by merely increasing the rate of duty you are going to make certain that the industry is going to progress.

There ought to be some expression from the Minister as to what is the general trend of economic policy. On what are the Government relying to promote industrial prosperity and how do they propose to meet the decline in wealth production as related to the agricultural industry? I think the Minister for Finance is with me in this, that agriculture cannot be and ought not to be the sole support of the population. It ought not to be even the predominating support of the population in the way it has been hitherto if we are to expect a growth in general prosperity and an increase of population. The development of industrial production is essential, but there is a failure on the part of the Government to indicate what is being done to meet the necessity for a general increase in productive industry. I merely make these remarks as a preface to something that will have to be said at a later stage. I want to indicate that we are not satisfied with the economic policy of the Government as indicated by the Vote on Account and the Estimates that have been prepared.

This is one of the occasions during the year when Senators are allowed to express their opinions about the various Government Departments and about the policy of the Government. This is one of the occasions when we can criticise, if necessary, such things as seem to afford food for criticism, following an analysis of the Estimates. I was interested in what the last speaker said with regard to the Government's lack of policy in relation to industry. My views with regard to industrial development are well known to the Seanad. I think one thing must be admitted. The policy of the Government has in the main been based upon a price factor; that is to say, they have based their policy on the competitive element that exists in the world to-day and the prices at which industrial productions can be landed in this country. At the danger of being boring in repetition I want to make it clear—and I think it cannot be too clearly understood in this country— that when it comes to a question of industrial production in competition with a mass-producing country we simply are not in the running. If the Ministerial policy is to be based upon the competitive powers of industrialists in this country as against the competitive powers of industrialists in other countries, then we ought to make up our minds definitely that we cannot possibly compete against big organisations. We have arrayed against us large trusts and amalgamations of companies with huge outputs. We have either to admit defeat or else attune the policy of the country to an industrialism that we can develop and make economic for the people.

This question of price is agitating not only us, but many other peoples. We have ample evidence that the price factor is one that has to be considered upon definite lines. I understand that at the present moment Russian chocolates are being dumped into this country at a price below the sugar content cost. If that is the case we might have to consider the immediate abandonment of the production of chocolates or other sweetmeats. We passed a resolution here some time ago. I think it was a rather foolish resolution, although it was proposed by a distinguished Senator. That resolution condemned in no unmeasured terms the attitude of Russia. I think it was an absurd and stupid resolution, but nevertheless it was passed by the Seanad. I suggest it would be much more practicable if, instead of passing pious aspirations as regards the religious outlook in Russia, we made up our minds not to have any Russian products here, whether sweets, oats or anything else that might come.

I do not wish to convey that my attitude towards Russia is any different than it would be towards any other country. I have as much appreciation of the Russian sociological position as I have of the sociological position of any other country. I want to emphasise that my fundamental economic view is that until this country makes up its mind that its workers ought to be maintained on a decent standard of living, and that we must produce here the goods required for home consumption, there will not be any appreciable national progress. The alternative is to go on drifting; to go on exporting the remnants of our resources, developing an unemployed population, a population that will be maintained below the ordinary standard of living.

We have had on various occasions in this House to consider foreign enterprises of various sorts. We had the question of the foreign control of flour not very long ago, and the Seanad, rightly or wrongly, wisely or unwisely, consciously or unconsciously, rejected the proposal that it was time the Minister responsible for that development should take a hand and see what could be done to protect one of the vital industries of the country. So far nothing has been done, and from what I can see I do not believe there is much hope of anything being done.

There was another example of industrial policy given in the recent decision of the Tariff Commission. There was a majority report, qualified by a minority report, on the subject of a coach-building tariff. The decision in respect of that tariff is well known to the Seanad. The general industrial policy of the Government is to sit tight, to let the trade disappear and to let our workers be unemployed. Speaking as one who has some experience of industrial affairs I want to say that, in spite of the comparison made by Senator Johnson, we are at present going through one of the worst periods that we have ever gone through industrially. We are living in a falling market. Nobody wants to buy. There are certain commodities in this country which it is impossible to sell even if you quote them at cost price or below it. That applies to a very considerable number of commodities. Some of our factories are attempting to carry on, and that state of affairs cannot last long. I am satisfied that some of our factories are losing a great deal of money, and they are merely preparing the way for closing down. That is all I have to say with regard to the industrial point raised by Senator Johnson.

I now want to refer to Section 3 of the Bill, and I want to emphasise that any suggestions I may make will not be made in any carping spirit, but in the hope that those suggestions will be adopted with a view to bringing about better economy in the country. Section 3 deals with the borrowing powers entrusted to the Minister for Finance in respect of sums that he will require within the amounts stipulated in the Bill. Can the Minister give us any information with regard to the rates of interest that he will be charged by the Bank of Ireland on these loans? We know the condition of the financial market; we know at what rate short term loans are available. We would like to know if, in view of the financially prosperous state of this country, which is so much boosted by bankers and others, we will get any resultant benefit in respect of any loans that may be borrowed by the State. I need hardly point out to the Minister that we bought money very dearly last year. We bought money at 93½ per cent., and to-day it stands at 100?. First 5 per cent. Nationals are 105½ and seconds are 104. This is a matter for satisfaction with all of us. I am not speaking on party lines, and I do not think that any party would object to the position which the National Loan occupies on the market. On the contrary, all parties would rejoice to see the national credit high. These figures, however, are evidence of buying money dearly. Our stock at par is gone up five points, and our other stock, Third Nationals, have advanced by over 6½ per cent. I would like to know that the Minister, in making his financial deals—money which he is going to borrow—will be assisted by expressions of opinion in this House. Perhaps he is in a position to give us some indication of what price he will pay the Bank of Ireland for this money.

I would like to refer to a matter connected with the Department of Finance. I wish to call attention to the payment of £216,403 in excess of the Vote under the heading of Gratuities to Army Officers. The Seanad will remember that I raised this question on the Army Bill and it was suggested to me that it more properly belonged to the Bill we are discussing to-day. I have read the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee of Public Accounts and it seems to me that if the thing were not actually irregular, regulations were certainly strained to a point when the Minister decided that the sum of £216,403 in excess of the Vote should be paid by way of gratuity without allowing any opportunity for the Oireachtas to discuss the matter. Apparently from the Minutes of Evidence the Department of Finance understood that the money would be voted by way of a Supplementary Estimate, but the extraordinary thing about it is that the Secretary of the Department said that the Minister decided that it would be injudicious or unwise to have this matter submitted as a Supplementary Estimate in the Dáil. It seems to me that the Minister was acting on that occasion more as a party politician than as the Minister for Finance for the whole State. I think the attention of the House should be directed to that matter.

With regard to the beet sugar industry, I find in the Estimates that last year the Vote by way of subsidy was £108,334. The amount for this year is put down at £162,500. I would like to know if the Government have any jurisdiction over this subsidy. Can they, for instance, ensure that the price given to beet growers will be an economic price? What is the position if the beet growers refuse to grow any beet? Has the Minister any power to intervene and withhold the subsidy if the price given to the beet growers is not fair or equitable? Apparently there has been a difference of opinion between the growers and the controlling element in the factory. It was interesting to read in to-day's "Irish Independent" a letter setting out the comparative position between the beet growing in Ireland and the beet growing in England. We find that the foreign company operating in Ireland has a total capital liability of £400,000. During the course of four years' trading it has distributed £350,625 in addition to writing off £167,000 in depreciation and providing liberally for every imaginary contingency. In view of that and in view of the continued subsidy it seems to me that it is the duty of the Minister and his Department to ensure that a fair economic price should be given to the beet growers by the company. In view of the refusal on their part to do so there should be a curtailment of the subsidy.

I would like to refer to the Vote concerned with Fisheries and Gaeltacht Services. Has the housing scheme which was passed here in December, 1929, made much progress? Senators will remember that a sum of £250,000 was voted for housing in the Gaeltacht. I do not know what amount of money has been spent. I remember there was a good deal of controversy about the Bill and we wanted certain alterations made. There were many amendments, most of which were defeated. We were under the impression that the work was urgent, and I believe it really is urgent. I understand that there were 11,000 applications for grants to build houses, improve existing dwellings, or erect out-houses. In the present condition of things it would be eminently desirable to have this money distributed. The houses are very badly needed, and if we are to spend the money on housing the sooner it is done the better, because the people require shelter.

I would like to say a few words about the Tariff Commission. I notice that the Chairman of the Tariff Commission has an allowance of £300. One of the Commissioners has £1,500, and another has an allowance of £300. I would like to know if the Commissioner who is paid £1,500 is attached to any other Department or is his whole time devoted to the work of the Tariff Commission. If he is attached to another Department, will the Minister say what his duties are and what functions he is fulfilling? Those are the only matters to which I propose to draw attention. I have raised them here in the hope that we may get some guidance from the Minister. I trust my suggestions will be accepted as helpful and intelligent suggestions.

I think the Minister has no cause for complaint in the two speeches which have been delivered. They have been delivered from a truly national standpoint, and the Minister cannot say that there was any party flavour whatever in the comments and criticisms made. I hope in the observations which I will make that I will keep in line with the spirit displayed by the last two speakers. Like Senator Johnson, I sincerely regret that there is no indication of a change of policy on the part of the Government. The Minister must know that the times have changed. He must know that the months and the years in front of him are likely to be difficult and trying. He seems to have made no provision to guard against possible dangers—I hope not evils—that are ahead. The farmer who pays for all is in a somewhat worse position than he was in 1914. As far as I can judge, the prices of the commodities which he sells are about the same, or a little less, than the prices he received in 1914. The profits of the farmer are much less than they were in 1914. Speaking in large terms the farmer's income is the only resource of this State; yet there is no curtailment of expenditure. There seems to be no diminution whatever in the large unproductive expenditure which is represented by this Bill and by other Bills which have passed through the Seanad. There seems to be no lessening of speed in the race we have been running the last eight or nine years.

I have a little experience of various walks of life in this country, and it seems to me the really productive people are in somewhat the same position as they were in 1879, 1880, and 1881. Of course I have not the same intimate knowledge of those trying years as I have of the years we have just left behind us, nor had I then the same foresight that I now have. The feeling amongst the farmers at the moment is, that while they were obliged to pay rack-rents in 1879 and 1880, they are obliged to pay rack taxation in 1931. I can tell the Minister in all sincerity that we have in the country a seething mass of young men and young women who will be a danger unless employment is found for them. I speak from wide experience, and I say that in all sincerity. Two or three days ago I saw in the criminal courts of this city farmers' sons who were tried and convicted for crimes of violence. As I saw those young men I came to the conclusion that there is only one solution. Employment must be found for the youth of our country, and it can only be found by a reduction in the unproductive expenditure which is going on.

In the matter of expenditure we are endeavouring to run parallel with the British Government, the Government of a great Empire. I suggest to the Minister that he must take a bold course, and take it soon. He must scale down his expenditure, and the savings which will result from that scaling down must go towards the stopping of the decay in agriculture and the revival of other industry. I mention agriculture because it is the one industry which is capable of absorbing quickly the greatest number of young people. I suppose the Minister has heard comments of this description both in public and private, and no doubt he must be weary of them; but I hope that by constant repetition they will have some effect upon his mind. I do not make these observations from any party point of view, and I do not make them for the purpose of obtaining a party advantage. I am not speaking for the purpose of criticising the Minister. I am speaking purely from the point of view that, in my judgment, it is absolutely essential that we should cut our coat according to our cloth. Nobody can deny that the price of the products of agriculture has in the past twelve months gone down by at least 20 per cent.

The official returns, comparing the years 1929 and 1930, show that the fall was 10 per cent.

I am glad my friend Senator Johnson has corrected me and I am accepting his figure of 10 per cent. I am very sceptical about returns. I do not go by returns. I form my judgment on what I see. I know the farmers have fed their cattle since last October for nothing and you must remember that the farmer is your main source of income. We are living on a scale that could only be justified if our great industry of agriculture and our other industries were in a highly flourishing condition. In 1879 and 1880 the landlords lived just as the English landlords lived; they ran parallel with the English landlords. They broke themselves in the process and as the older Senators amongst us know we had the terrible scenes of the Land War. Our Government to-day is collecting more than ever the landlords collected. They are trying to run on lines equal to the British Government. They are endeavouring to equal the British Government in everything and even to exceed the British Government where possible. We are working on a grand scale but I may tell the Minister confidently that this thing cannot last. I have gone to the country and met people and I assure the Minister that the existing condition of things will not last. Something must be done in order to find employment for the young men and women and I suggest it can only be done by making big savings in our existing extravagant system of administration.

This is hardly a Bill that one can discuss except in a very general way because to answer many of the relevant points that could be raised would necessitate the attendance of probably most of the Ministers and at the moment that is not practicable. I do not know of any subject on which there are more platitudes talked than on this question of industrial development in Ireland, the finding of employment and the stopping of emigration. Platitudes are turned out on this question just like sausages out of a machine.

I found employment. I spent money upon it—more than you ever earned, anyway.

I was not referring to the Senator at all. We are told what has been an established fact for the last seventy or eighty years, that we are exporting a huge population every year—the cream of our population; we are told that the country is poor and that unemployment is rife. All these are well-known facts and our great problem is to find the solution. Senator Connolly, and, I think his Party generally, have one form of solution and that is by erecting a tariff wall which cannot be scaled. They look upon industrial development merely from the view-point of those who have things to sell without any regard whatever to the capacity of the people who have to buy. The tariff policy of the Government comes under review here. The Government go upon what they choose to call selective tariffs and I do not know that they have been a very brilliant success. By some people they are said to have gone too quickly and by others they are said to have gone too slowly. In my opinion the mere imposition of tariffs without constructive action on the part of the Government with a view to seeing that the industries tariffed make effective use of that tariff is a sheer waste of time and simply means an imposition on the public.

Senator Connolly knows something about the furniture industry. Before that industry can ever be developed, Irish furniture manufacturers will have to develop some sense of honesty and some sense of the fitness of things. I think the Senator will agree that there is a general complaint about furniture manufacturers in this country working fresh timber and selling furniture in that condition. I have Irish furniture in my own house, and I would be ashamed to admit to any foreigner that it was a product of Ireland. It is cracked and split. I am living in that house only four years, and the Irish-made doors and windows are falling to pieces, simply because they were constructed of fresh timber. That is not the fault of the workmen, but it is the fault of the manufacturers. The Irish manufacturer who sells furniture of the type I have described, and who has the advantage of a tariff of 33? per cent., which was given by the Government to Irish producers, is guilty of a gross act of dishonesty, and is guilty of sabotaging the Irish furniture industry. Moreover, the finish, except in cases where you pay the most prohibitive prices, is in the main very crude, and is certainly very inartistic.

On a point of explanation, I think the Senator's speech is developing more or less into an attack on the furniture trade. I think I can answer the Senator by stating that, from my experience of the furniture trade in the Free State, he is talking nothing but absolute nonsense both as regards unseasoned timber, and the make, design and finish of Irish furniture.

Cathaoirleach

Senator O'Farrell is entitled to express his opinion.

He is not entitled to make an attack on a specific trade and to couple me with it.

Cathaoirleach

I do not think that Senator O'Farrell meant to do that.

I must say I know little or nothing in regard to the firm with which Senator Connolly is connected.

The Senator certainly associated me with the furniture trade, and then he proceeded to attack the Irish furniture trade. I am in a position to defend myself against unfounded and misleading charges and, as far as my experience of it goes, I am in a position to defend the Irish furniture trade against unfounded and misleading charges.

Cathaoirleach

Senator O'Farrell is quite entitled to discuss the trade from the point of view of tariffs.

Surely, so long as the Senator does not associate me with it.

I referred to Senator Connolly as one who knew something about the furniture trade and, being an honest man, I felt he would agree with me in regard to the shortcomings of what is now one of our tariffed industries. I was giving my own personal experience, confirmed by one of the biggest traders in Dublin, and I stated that the furniture cracked and the windows were affected.

Retailers in Dublin have been notoriously hostile to Irish manufacture.

The Senator who makes such comments as we have heard is a nice advertiser of Irish products!

It is interesting to find a staunch trade unionist adopting such an attitude in regard to Irish manufactured articles. It is the greatest evidence of the slave mind that I have yet seen.

I do not know whether Senator Connolly's anger is an indication of the fact that I am speaking the truth.

I am not angry; I am contemptuous.

I am prepared to put up with that, but I think the sooner some of us see our own shortcomings the better. There is no virtue in praising up a particular item and trying to shove it over simply because it is Irish. My aspiration is to make Irish industrialists turn out as good material as can be found in any part of the world and not develop what may be referred to as the inferiority complex. Let us not place ourselves in the position that because we are Irish we must be prepared to put up with articles manufactured in our own country which are inferior to what is manufactured in other parts of the world.

With regard to boots, on another occasion I described how I went into a shop belonging to a very big firm of boot and shoe manufacturers and I mentioned that I was anxious to buy a pair of shoes. I expected that I would be shown nothing but Irish shoes. I was shown at least six pairs of shoes before I was five minutes in the shop. I asked if the shoes were of Irish manufacture. I was told they were not but that if I wanted Irish manufactured shoes I could have them. It was only then that I was shown Irish manufactured shoes. The shop I entered was the property of boot and shoe manufacturers who were working behind a tariff. That shop and I dare say many other shops of a similar type were selling British made shoes because they were evidently making a better profit or were working on a rebate or bonus system of some kind. That is the way some of our industries are availing of the tariffs that have been put on.

I believe a tariff should never be put on unless there is a condition imposed that the tariff should be utilised to build up the industry for the benefit of the community. It should be the business of the Government to see to it that proper machinery is installed, that there is a compulsory amalgamation of manufacturing firms and that there is generally the adoption of up-to-date manufacturing and marketing methods; otherwise all you will be doing by imposing a tariff is to protect inefficiency. As it is you give a greater profit to the manufacturer who takes advantage of the tariff and you get no greater output and very little extra employment. We know that there are more boots and shoes being imported than was the case before the tariff was imposed. In some of the tariffed industries while there are more workers there are less wages being paid. That is an example of how the tariff has worked in the case of certain industries.

Senator Comyn proposes to solve the unemployment question by cutting down expenditure. That is one of the most fallacious arguments I have ever heard, yet it is bleated about by newspapers and bankers and people who should know better, down to the common, pot-house politician. We are told that if our taxation is lower we are bound to have prosperity. If one follows that statement to its logical conclusion it can be argued that the savage who pays no taxes at all should really be the most prosperous person on earth. In the countries where you have a high taxation you frequently find the most prosperity.

What about Australia?

It is not so long ago since Senator Moore quoted Australia favourably simply because of its sky-high tariff walls. Australia was quoted as one of the outstanding examples of what tariffs can do to make a country prosperous.

How about the wages there?

The Senator now quotes Australia as an example to be avoided, but he cannot have it both ways. We have heard a lot spoken about the farmer. The Irish farmer seems to be the general handyman for every politician when it comes to making a speech. I know some shadow ministers who are farmers and who are proposing to teach the farmers what to do; but I must say that they themselves have made a sorry mess of their own farms. Not only have they not tilled but they have actually advertised for the cutting of the hay they grew.

We are told that because the price of farm produce has come down everything else should come down in proportion. That suggestion has been made by a lawyer. Can anybody here say that lawyers' fees have been reduced in proportion to the reduction in the price of agricultural produce? Those who have experience of the law will probably know that the lawyers' fees have gone up and that it is more expensive to go to law now than ever it was. What is the use of saying that civil servants and the other workers must take smaller wages and that there must be a cut all round when lawyers will fleece the unfortunate farmer to the same tune as when his prices were high? There is a tremendous amount of hypocrisy in all those speeches and it is hard to stand that. There are misfortunes in this country to be counteracted, wrongs to be righted and problems to be solved, but these matters are not going to be met by playing the part of the doleful Jeremiah, making things out to be infinitely worse than they are and putting forward preposterous solutions. We have got to have some sense of responsibility and the people of the country as a whole are not being helped by the sort of speeches that are being made both here and throughout the country.

There are many matters that would come under this Bill in the normal course. But it is only a Vote on Account and when the Appropriation Bill proper comes before us it will be opportune to raise these matters and to require the attendance of Ministers to deal with them.

I do not intend to deal with the last speech except to remark that the Senator's references to Australia were amusing. It is well known that Australia has been governed for the most part by the Labour Party, which has built up those duties in order to raise wages to an extraordinary extent. They profited by that up to a short time ago and, finally, the system broke down. It is not to be taken that always and under all circumstances these duties are of advantage. They must be used properly and not in an extravagant way, as the Labour Party in Australia has used them. I say that in passing.

I should like to call the Minister's attention, as I have done before, to certain very contradictory statements made by him. Some time ago, in the Seanad, I dealt with the taxation of the Free State, according to the Minister's own statement of the relative taxable capacity of Great Britain and the Free State. The Minister put that taxable capacity at 1.5 to 100. He made that statement in the Dáil on returning from England, where these matters had been discussed, and, according to him, adjusted. I pointed out that if the taxable capacity of the Free State and Great Britain was 1.5 to 100, that would reduce our taxation to something like £12,000,000, against the £700,000,000 for which the British have to budget. When I made these remarks the Minister said—I made not say incorrectly—that you cannot judge the taxable capacity of two countries without considering the social services provided by each country to its own population. That may be a very correct statement in a general way, but shortly after that the Minister goes over to the Dáil and says, "You cannot expect as great social advantages in this country as in Great Britain, which is much richer." In that we are all the more to the bad. Not only are we to the bad as regards the expenditure here, but we are to the bad, if the Minister is correct, as regards the social services rendered. That aggravates the position. These are statements made by the Minister, and it is he that is responsible for them. I think the Minister ought not to make statements in one House which contradict statements made in the other House.

With regard to the question of duties and protective taxes, they indicate the revolutionary change which is coming in mercantile affairs from the practice in the past. I believe that every country in the future is going to protect its own manufactures against the hostile incursions of other countries, and that the country that does not do so, but, as Senator Connolly said, allows rich and powerful countries to compare with it internally, will be swept out of competition altogether. The people will have to leave that country, because there will be no labour for them in agriculture, manufactures, or anything else. Our country, having already had its population decreased from 7,000,000 to about 4,000,000 or 5,000,000, will suffer a further great sweep, and there will be left merely a few shepherds. I think you must base the population of a country on its agriculture and what it can produce. That is to be the standard of each country in the future, as far as possible. Of course, countries will have to import things that they cannot produce themselves, but when they can produce things themselves they will prevent other people coming in and destroying their factories. These are all difficult matters, and I do not intend to enlarge on them. I should like, however, to direct the Minister's attention to the contradictory statement he has made.

If Senator Moore examines the statements to which he referred, he will find that there is no inconsistency in them. Senator Johnson complained that the Estimates did not indicate any change of policy on the part of the Government. If there were a great change of policy, it might not be reflected in the Estimates. Two financial measures come before the Oireachtas—the Estimates, which represent expenditure, and the legislation implementing the Budget—so that there might be changes of policy which would not necessarily appear in the Estimates. I do not want, however, to go into that question. I may say this with regard to the policy pursued heretofore, that if it has not been responsible for the fact that this country has, to some extent, escaped the evils which are besetting other countries, at any rate it is true to say that if we had pursued a different policy—a policy which many people urged upon us—we might have brought many of these evils down upon us before now. Everything is not as we would like it to be in the country, but we are certainly much better off than a large number of other countries. I think it might be said that we have fewer difficulties and less distress than almost any country at the present time. Even countries which have no great apparent problem of unemployment, like France, have really a more serious problem in that respect—a problem which does not show itself so plainly because of different conditions and different systems, but which, nevertheless, is very acute and manifests itself more perhaps in partial employment and seriously underpaid employment than in absolute unemployment as in countries like Germany and the United States. We have not the financial difficulties, present and prospective, that they have in many other countries. In countries where you had active Government interference in one direction and another, the difficulties are just beginning to accrue. The policy we have pursued here has not led us into great difficulties, and I believe that the fact that we have carried out our policy in the way we have has been responsible for our escaping some of the acute difficulties and some of the types of acute distress which are experienced elsewhere.

We have not refrained from economic activities in many directions. It is unnecessary to go over the list, because it is well known to Senators, but if I were to go over it I could point out the enormous amount of work done for economic development. We do take the line that it is not for the Government to make the country prosperous; that if we were to try to make the country prosperous by Governmental action, it would mean changes for which no Government in this country would receive a mandate—extreme changes, political and industrial. Unless you had very great political changes, you could not successfully have the Government taking a direct part in industry. Quite recently, we have had debates in the Dáil, and even in the Seanad, which indicated that with the machinery of Government that we have and which, I think, everybody in the country wishes to continue, we could not carry on industry to any great extent except along the ordinarily accepted lines of public utility services. You cannot carry industry along to any great extent by Government and, therefore, we are driven to have the work of developing the country carried on by private individuals and by private enterprise. Too much Government interference in that direction is not going to give us very satisfactory results. Any of us who has observed the effects of efforts which have been made in this direction must be more and more convinced that the role which can be played by Government in this respect is rather limited. A Government can undoubtedly give assistance and stimulation in a variety of ways, but when a Government goes on to interfere more directly, it is up against great difficulties. A great many people, for instance, have alleged in the past that one of the principal needs of industry in this country was capital. We had the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Act passed to supply capital. Every care that it was possible to take was taken in connection with the administration of the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Act. A good deal of money will be lost as the result of the operation of that Act and I am satisfied that we would be really better off if we had not attempted to do anything in that direction at all, because we have been driven to bolster up a lot of lame dogs in industry which it would have been better to let disappear. One or two industries which have been helped by the Act are tied down by so many restrictions that it would have been better for them to take in partners or make some sacrifice to get capital, as they probably would have been able to do, in other directions. I give that as an illustration of the extreme difficulties of a Government when it begins to interfere too directly with a view to protecting or developing industry.

Tariffs are one of the measures that we have employed in this regard. I have no apology to make for the policy that the Government has pursued in respect of tariffs. I think that we have clearly pursued the correct line. There were one or two tariffs imposed in the beginning which, I think, ought not to have been imposed; they were mistakes. But we discovered relatively early all the snags with regard to tariffs. We discovered the difficulty there is in believing all the claims manufacturers put up when they want a tariff, and the way it is possible to be deceived by people who have much to gain by getting a tariff imposed. We discovered the extent to which manufacturers who wanted tariffs would go in the way of lobbying—the trouble they would take, the energy they would put into their efforts, the agitations they would produce for their own benefit, though nominally for the benefit of the country; in many cases the granting of the tariff would, of course, be for the benefit of the country, but primarily it was for the benefit of the group who were endeavouring to obtain the tariff. We set up our Tariff Commision machinery, and I believe the work of that Tariff Commission has amply justified our action. Tariffs have been given to many industries. Other tariffs will be given as the case is made for them, when it seems to be possible to develop the industry concerned, without imposing undue burdens on the general community. Now, we are urged to take steps to see that those who get tariffs take proper advantage of them. I think we cannot do that. The administrative difficulties involved there would be such as could not be overcome. We have been urged to regulate prices that might be charged by those who have control of tariffed industries. My view is that it is best to make the tariff only so high as will enable the industry to fight its way upward, and that will leave no great room for overcharging. If we try to regulate prices we will hamper manufacturers, and impose so many new burdens of one kind or another on them that the effect of the tariff will be lost and administrative expenses will go up. The only thing that can be done is to put the tariff at a right level and allow whatever prospects of extra profits that tariff may give the manufacturer to be the incentive.

As to compulsory rationalisation of industry, all sorts of difficulties exist. There is, undoubtedly, room in many directions for rationalisation of industries, for the combination of factories, or for one factory taking a particular end of industry and another taking the other end. I think, again, that those must be left with a certain amount of encouragement to the owners to carry out. If it is attempted by the State, you will have compensation all round. You will have workers put on pension, because it will be urged that they were thrown out of employment by Government interference. You will have manufacturing owners claiming compensation in all directions, and you will have an expensive and badly-done job, because pressure may be put on which will cause action to be taken precipitately and so on. Generally, in the matter of tariffs, I think there is really nothing to be done except put the tariffs on and allow effects to manifest themselves.

If there is any gross abuse, if there is a setting up of a monopoly or undue raising of prices—in an exceptional case of that kind the Government might take action. But so far as general policy is concerned, there is nothing to be done except pursue the course that has been adopted, and adjust it as circumstances may require or opportunity offer. We have never set out on a five, ten, or fifteen years plan. We have never attempted to say: "We are going to do this thing this year and some other thing next year." As opportunity offers, we have been prepared to adjust our policy to suit. We did not say, three years before the proposal for the Shannon Scheme was offered, that we were going to have a great scheme of hydroelectric development. What happened was: proposals were made for hydroelectric development; we had them examined and we decided to go ahead with them. I think that is the only policy that can be pursued. We may think that certain services are beneficial or necessary to the community, but yet if there were a change in prices sufficient to justify us, we might conclude that those services, in the new circumstances, were no longer necessary, or, at any rate, that the benefit obtainable from them would not be commensurate with the cost.

With reference to the remarks by Senator Comyn, I should like to say, as I said in the Dáil, that remarks such as these make no impression at all on me. They seem to me not to be really characterised by complete sincerity, because the question of reducing expenditure really resolves itself into curtailment of services, and my experience has been that practically all round the demand is not for curtailment of services, but for increase of services. Individual Deputies and Senators may be in favour of curtailment of services, but they are a minority. The general demand is: "We want more services; we want the State to interfere in new directions and to undertake new tasks." I do not think that that is unnatural. To some extent, I think it is inevitable because of the circumstances of the times. The economic structure of the world is becoming more complex and, because of that increasing complexity, there is, broadly speaking, a need for gradual increase of State activity. I see no way out of that. At the same time, the question of reducing expenditure in any particular State resolves itself into a question of curtailing services in that State. You may save in certain directions, as we saved in the case of the Civil Service owing to the reduction of the bonus consequent on the fall in prices. As prices go down there may be savings in other directions, but the area of total expenditure that they will cover will not be so large as some Deputies and Senators talk about, and talk about in a sort of tub-thumping way and not in a way that would make a serious contribution to any problems we have to face.

Does the Minister take any notice of what happened in the North of Ireland?

Senator Connolly dealt with a number of questions which I need hardly go into, because, as Senator O'Farrell pointed out, this is a Central Fund Bill and not an Appropriation Bill. There is no reference to any particular vote in the Bill before the Seanad, and it is when the Appropriation Bill is before the House that the questions to which Senator Connolly refers would probably arise. I should like to say a few words, however, regarding one point raised—the subsidy on sugar beet. That is a question between the factory and the growers. When the factory was being established, the Government was very strongly of the view that they should not have shares in it. There was a proposal that the Government should take shares in the factory. We said we did not want to have shares or to be party to any dispute or negotiations between growers and factory regarding the question of price. If the farmers do not grow beet, the factory cannot work. If a small area of beet is grown, the factory will have to work with its overhead expenses greatly increased and, with that small quantity of beet, cannot make any profits. On the other hand, if the price offered by the factory is one which will really pay the growers, then they will lose if they refrain from growing. I think that we could never hope to have an industry establish itself on the basis that the Government was going to interfere to fix prices. The prices will have to be fixed by the two sides weighing up the advantages—the farmers weighing up their position if they decide not to grow and the factory weighing up its position if it takes the risk that the farmers will not grow, or only grow an insufficient quantity of beet. No other position is possible. The Government's obligation is to pay a subsidy when sugar is manufactured. If there is no sugar manufactured, there is no subsidy.

Senator Connolly, I think, advocated something like wholesale tariffs. At any rate, he referred to the fact that we could not compete with huge organisations elsewhere, and he seemed to me to propose that we should have tariffs on everything. I think the answer to that is that there are many industries here for which, taking everything into account, conditions are relatively suitable. It may not be possible in some of them to compete with firms outside, but in others, with some initial assistance, it should be possible to compete, and in still others, it should be possible to continue with some relatively small preference in the way of a tariff. Whatever one may think of tariffs in the abstract, the position at the moment is that the farmer cannot be protected. Nothing can be done that will improve the prices he gets. If tariffs are put on which put up the cost of living on him, then those tariffs are a direct injury, and it becomes a question, in the case of every tariff, of trying to ascertain and weigh the advantages and disadvantages. The Senator said that we should decide to have no Russian products imported here. It is easy to say that. Would he decide to have nothing produced in any part of the Saorstát exported to Russia?

I suggested all other countries as well.

If that is the Senator's suggestion, I leave it to the House. I do not think it is necessary to argue it.

Am I in order in asking if the Minister will reply to my query with regard to Section 3 of the Bill?

Cathaoirleach

The Senator can ask the question.

The money will be borrowed when occasion arises—which I think is unlikely—on the best terms possible.

Question put and declared carried.
Top
Share