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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Dec 1931

Vol. 14 No. 40

Town Tenants Bill, 1930—Report Stage.

Cathaoirleach

Amendment 1 is a Government amendment, as follows:—

Section 5, sub-section (3). To insert before the sub-section two new sub-sections as follows:—

"(3) The Minister may, after consultation with the committee mentioned in Section 65 of the Court of Justice Act, 1924 (No. 10 of 1924), make rules of court for the purposes of this Act and, in particular, for regulating the practice and procedure under this Act.

(4) Every rule of court made under this section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made, and if either such House shall, within the next twenty-one days on which such House has sat after such rule is laid before it, pass a resolution annulling such rule, such rule shall be annulled accordingly but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder."

I second the amendment.

This amendment makes clear what was not clear. I relied on Section 7 as giving sufficient power to make rules. As a matter of fact the section gives power to make regulations and not rules. This amendment makes it clear that the Rule-making Authority will make the rules, and that can be done as expeditiously as Senator Comyn wishes.

Amendment agreed to.
The following amendment appeared on the Order Paper in the name of Senator Comyn:—
Section 6. After the word "tenement" in line 8 to insert the words "or becomes tenant thereof."

I am sorry that I cannot speak to this amendment on behalf of Senator Comyn.

Can I speak in favour of the amendment?

Cathaoirleach

As it has not been moved I do not think the Senator can.

The amendment is perfectly unnecessary.

Amendment not moved.

Cathaoirleach

Government amendment No. 3:

Section 11, sub-section (1). After the word "case" in line 52 to insert the words "shall be such sum as may be agreed on between the landlord and the tenant and in default of such agreement."

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment 4 not moved.

Cathaoirleach

Government amendment No. 5:

Section 12, sub-section (3). After the word "lease" in line 42 to insert the words "for a life or lives in being (either without a term of years or with a concurrent term of which less than twenty-five years are unexpired) or under a lease for a term."

Simply through a drafting error these words were omitted.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment 6:—

New section. Before Section 13 to insert a new section as follows:—

13.—(1) Where a sanitary authority serves under the Public Health Acts, 1878 to 1931, or the Housing of the Working Classes (Ireland) Acts, 1890 to 1921, a notice on the tenant of a tenement requiring the execution by such tenant of any work which is an improvement within the meaning of this Act, such tenant shall within three days after the service of such notice on him serve on the landlord of such tenement a notice (in this Act referred to as a sanitary work notice) in the prescribed form stating the fact of the service of such notice by such sanitary authority and stating the material portions of such notice.

(2) Where a sanitary work notice is served on the landlord of a tenement such landlord may, within three days after such service, serve on the tenant of such tenement a notice (in this Act referred to as a sanitary work undertaking) in the prescribed form undertaking to execute such work in consideration of either (as such landlord shall state in such notice) a specified increase of rent or an increase of rent to be fixed by the court.

(3) Whenever the landlord of a tenement has served under and in accordance with this section a sanitary work undertaking on the tenant of such tenement the following provisions shall have effect, that is to say:—

(a) the service of such undertaking shall have the same effect as the service on such tenant of an improvement undertaking, and the provisions of this Act in relation to an improvement undertaking shall apply accordingly; and

(b) such tenant may serve on the sanitary authority a copy of such sanitary work undertaking and thereupon the obligation to comply with the notice served by the sanitary authority and the liability for failure to comply with such notice shall be transferred to and become and be the obligation and liability of such landlord in exoneration of such tenant.

(4) Where a tenant has served a sanitary work notice on his landlord and such landlord has not, within three days after such service, served on such tenant a sanitary work undertaking in respect of such sanitary work notice, such tenant shall be entitled to execute as an improvement the work mentioned in the notice the service of which by the sanitary authority occasioned the service of such sanitary notice.

This new section, the subject of this amendment, is very technical. It deals with the work that is done by a tenant under the order of a sanitary authority. Now both the landlord and the tenant are liable to the sanitary authority when an order has been made for sanitary work to be done under the Public Health Acts and the other Acts. The form that the notice takes is that it is addressed to the occupier or owner, the occupier for all practical purposes meaning the tenant and the owner meaning the landlord. The owner is defined in the Public Health Acts as the person who is in receipt of the rack rent. Under the present law, if a tenant does the work that he is ordered to do by this notice he may or he may not be entitled to be recouped by his landlord. That depends on the contract of tenancy between them. In most cases, if the sanitary work has to be done outside the house, it is quite probable that the landlord is liable as between himself and the tenant: that he would have to pay if the tenant does not; but where the work is to be done inside it is very often the tenant who would have to do it under the contract of tenancy. If it is the landlord's job the tenant can recover if he does the work, so he does not want any other remedy. But if it is the tenant's job, then he cannot recover under the present law, but there is a kind of sanitary work as to which that would be unfair to the tenant. There is a kind of sanitary work which very often occurs where what is done is an improvement which will add to the letting value of the tenement, and for that kind of work, although the tenant is not entitled to recover from the landlord under the present law, it is quite clear that he should be entitled to recover.

For that reason, that kind of sanitary work was attempted to be dealt with by the Bill as it came to this House. It was dealt with in sub-section (5) of Section 16. Sanitary work of this nature done by a tenant was so different from the improvements to which he would be entitled under the general provisions of the Bill that it had to be dealt with quite separately. That is why it was dealt with by sub-section (5) of Section 16. The way it was dealt with was this: that the improvement notice that the tenant had to serve on the landlord in the ordinary way in order to entitle him to recover compensation for improvements at the end of his tenancy was declared not to be necessary in the case of sanitary work. That is how the matter was left and how it came to this House. That was not fair to the landlord, because it deprived him of the right of what was called in the Bill an improvement undertaking. Under Section 12 of the Bill, where a tenant wants to get compensation for improvements at the end of his tenancy, he has as a condition to serve on the landlord, before he begins to make an improvement, what is called an improvement notice. Having served that notice, the landlord then has two months within which to make up his mind whether he will do it himself or not. If he makes up his mind within the two months to do it, he then serves on the tenant an improvement undertaking. If he does that the tenant has nothing more to do. What he intended to do is done by the landlord and the thing is over. As the Bill came to this House, in the case of sanitary work the landlord had no chance of saying "I will do it myself." He could not have the chance of saying it, because the sanitary notice always required the thing to be done in a limited few days —about three days, but never more than ten.

Sub-section (1) of the new section that I am proposing requires the tenant, when he has been served by the sanitary authority with an order, to communicate to his landlord within three days the fact that he has been served with that notice and roughly what he is required to do. With regard to the provisions laid down under sub-section (3) of the new section, the tenant gets off altogether, so far as the sanitary authority is concerned, if the landlord undertakes to do the work.

Amendment 8 must be considered with this amendment. It proposes to add at the end of the existing sub-section (5) the words: "but a tenant shall not be entitled to compensation in respect of such work unless such tenant has served on his landlord a sanitary work notice in respect of such work and has become entitled under this Act to execute such work as an improvement." That is to say, if he fails to carry out the conditions under the new Section 13 by serving notice on his landlord within three days, he cannot recover compensation for what he does as an improvement under this Act. It may seem that that is a little hard on the tenant, but we must recollect that the tenant is acquiring an absolutely new right under this Act. This new section only applies to a case where only for this Bill the tenant could not recover any compensation at all. It gives him a new right to recover compensation for the sanitary improvement which brings the landlord no chance of a larger rent. The three days is, of course, short notice, but it cannot be helped. The sanitary notice is so short that if the landlord is not to be deprived of his right, the same rights that he has under the rest of the Bill, of serving an undertaking to do the work himself, then it must be done within some short period like three days. The landlord himself must make up his mind whether or not he is going to avail of this right within another three days.

I second the amendment.

Senator Brown was right when he said that this amendment of his is rather hard on the tenant. It is, and it is also hard on the public, who take an interest in sanitary work as great as that of the tenant and much greater than that of the landlord. This is an amendment that requires very close consideration. I think it is one that ought to have been brought forward at the proper time—that is, on the Committee Stage of the Bill.

I did bring forward one on the Committee Stage, to which this is an alternative.

If Senator Brown says so I am sure it must be so. All I can say is that anything that was suggested on the Committee Stage of the Bill did not make on my mind the impression which this amendment has made. Certainly, whatever was brought forward on the Committee Stage was not urged by arguments such as the Senator has used on this occasion. If it had been brought forward on the Committee Stage it would be very difficult even for persons acquainted with the very complicated system of Public Health law to understand the meaning of this amendment. The House is now expected on the Report Stage to take up the consideration of this problem which has been very clearly and ably stated by Senator Brown from the point of view which he appears to advocate here. The Senator himself has said that the amendment is going to be a little hard on the tenant. I suggest that it is going to be very hard on the public. I am opposing the amendment without knowing whether or not it is to be accepted by the Minister. I oppose the amendment on principle. Here is how the Bill stood as it passed through the Dáil. There is a general restriction in Section 16 of the right to compensation for improvements by the tenant. Notice must be served and matters of that kind attended to. Sub-section (5) of the section provides:

(5) Neither of the two next foregoing sub-sections of this section shall apply in respect of an improvement which is a work executed in pursuance of an order of a sanitary authority under the Public Health Acts, 1878 to 1930, or the Housing of the Working Classes (Ireland) Acts, 1890 to 1921.

The two foregoing sub-sections provide that:

A tenant shall not be entitled to compensation for improvements in respect of an improvement made after the passing of this Act unless—

(a) an improvement notice was duly served in accordance with this Act in relation to such improvement, and

(b) the tenant by whom such notice was so served became entitled under this Act to execute such improvement either on consent or by virtue of an improvement order, and

(c) such improvement was duly executed in accordance (as the case may be) with such improvement notice and this Act or with such improvement order.

Senators can now see the reason why this clause was put in the original Bill in respect to improvements under the Public Health Acts. The reason is that improvements under the Public Health Acts are matters of urgency in respect to which the public is concerned. They are matters which must be done at once, and if they are not done the Public Health Authorities can prosecute. Moreover, any member of the public who is injured or whose child gets diphtheria or something of that kind has an action against the tenant who will not carry out an improvement under the Public Health Acts. That is what is in the Bill. The Bill in this matter was right as it left the Dáil. Senator Brown wants it varied by the Seanad on the Report Stage. I am opposed to this amendment, which requires the tenant to serve a notice on the landlord authorising him within a certain time to do the improvement work. Take a case where the landlord is unknown. It has occurred that sanitary improvements have had to be made in the case of houses in this city where the landlord was unknown. Moreover, why should the landlord allow his premises to get into a state of dilapidation, requiring expenditure on his part to make them habitable and safe under the Public Health Acts? If his house is in such a bad condition, what right has he to a notice? That is one objection I have to the amendment. My second objection is, in the public interest. Under the Public Health Acts, the person responsible is the occupier. That is quite right. The occupier must make the improvement. In the public interest, the improvements necessary under the Public Health Acts should be done at once. If a tenant is required to do them he ought certainly to get compensation if they add to the letting value of the holding, without being put to the necessity of finding his landlord and of serving him with notice. My objection to the amendment is, first, in the interests of the tenant and, secondly, in the interests of the public. Under paragraphs (a) and (b) of sub-section (3) of Senator Brown's proposed amendment, what is the liability that is transferred? It is the liability under the notice; the liability to the public authority. What about the liability to the third person who receives special damage and special injury by reason of the nonperformance of the sanitary work? These are only a few of the difficulties that seem to me to arise on this amendment. With regard to sub-section (4) of the proposed new section, why allow three days delay in respect of this public health work where a house has been allowed to get into such a condition that it becomes a public nuisance? Senator Brown is right in saying that this section gives a new right to the tenant, but the Senator seeks by his amendment to subject that new right to conditions which will certainly be injurious to the public. I urge that, on this Stage of the Bill, a far-reaching clause of this character should not be introduced, and I hope the House will reject it.

With a great deal of Senator Comyn's argument I was rather mystified. I failed to follow a certain amount of it. His argument was largely based on the assumption that always and in all circumstances under the Public Health Acts the liability is upon the occupier. Unless my recollection of the Public Health Acts is completely wrong, notice can be served either on the owner or the occupier.

It is directed to both.

When the foundation upon which Senator Comyn built up his argument has to be abandoned I am afraid that a great deal of the superstructure, if not all of it, goes down too. The proposed new section is an expansion of amendment 11 that came up on the Committee Stage. I think it is an improvement on it. The only difficulty I see is that possibly the term of three days is too short— not, as Senator Comyn thinks, that it is too long. It appears to me that possibly it is too short, because the tenant may lose his rights if he neglects to act, so to speak, almost on the spur of the moment. If he does not act within three days in serving the notice he may lose his rights. That seems to me to be the only possible hardship on tenants that the section contains, but I frankly cannot see the answer to Senator Brown's argument. Since sanitary notices are always in their terms exceedingly short, the service of this notice by the tenant on the landlord, and the service back of the landlord's notice on the tenant, must be done at what I would almost call break-neck speed. That seems to be a necessity considering the fact that sanitary notices are always for a very short period. It occurred to me possibly that from the tenant's point of view some of this difficulty might be obviated if the sanitary authorities always served with the notice a slip of paper, or put on the back of the notice a statement drawing attention to the provisions of this section, or, perhaps, better than drawing attention to the provisions of this section, containing a précis of the section which would open the tenant's eyes and let him know immediately that he has to act if he wishes to get the benefit of carrying out the improvements. I have not had the opportunity yet of consulting with the Department of Local Government to see how far that can be made obligatory on sanitary authorities. I fancy in that case sanitary authorities will be willing to do it, whether it is obligatory on them or not.

Apart from that difficulty, I cannot see any objection to this amendment, which really fits in with the entire scheme of work of the Bill, which enables landlords to carry out improvements upon their property. Of course I see in a case like this a very strong reason why the landlord should, in a great number of instances, be the person to carry out the improvements, because notice might be served on half a dozen tenants occupying half a dozen adjoining houses, yet the improvement might be an improvement of a nature that will affect the whole lot of them. Each individual simply trying to carry out improvements might be tinkering at it while the landlord carrying out the improvements for the whole lot would not only get it done more cheaply but he would also carry them out more effectively, and, I believe, at a much quicker rate.

I must confess, as a layman, I am rather confused between two points of view from the lawyers on this amendment. I would like to raise one or two points. Senator Brown, in his reply, might deal with them. I was always under the impression that in dealing with sanitary notices and questions of public health the responsibility was entirely on the landlord; the tenant might be notified, but it was really the landlord's work. I cannot see how the tenant in those cases could be expected to carry out the necessary repairs to the property.

There is only one objection that I can see to Senator Brown's amendment, and that is the question of "a specified increase of rent or an increase of rent to be fixed by the court," because it seems to me that necessary sanitary improvements should be part of a landlord's duty, irrespective of any question of compensation. That is to say, if the public health laws are being administered it surely devolves on the landlord, as a matter of public responsibility, to keep his property in a proper sanitary condition. I had always assumed, and it has been my experience in respect of any such property that I have ever had anything to do with, that the landlord was notified with regard to sanitary improvements to be carried out under the Public Health Acts. I would like if Senator Brown could clarify that in his reply.

Surely Senator Connolly has experience of the conditions that prevail in these small villages? The cost on a landlord of providing sanitary arrangements might come to £20, while he receives 2s. a week rent. Does he seriously suggest that the landlord ought to bear such a cost?

My point is that people who can only afford to pay 2s. a week rent could not bear a cost of £20.

I can speak from personal experience on this.

I am speaking of the tenant's capacity to do it.

I am speaking of the position of the landlord, and the suggestion that sanitary improvements can be done without an increase of rent.

I speak with great ignorance of this question. The question will not arise unless premises are improved. No question of improvement value arises unless the tenant does the job in response to the order that is served on him on behalf of the landlord.

On behalf of the public authority.

It is served on him to do the work. The local authority ask that the work be done. I take it the immediate responsibility lies on the occupier.

There is equal responsibility on the landlord and tenant as far as the sanitary authority is concerned.

But that responsibility cannot be enforced against the landlord except with great trouble and expense.

I can easily be done.

I presume that one individual of the two is liable ultimately to the local authority for carrying out this work.

If the tenant does it, and in the doing of it he adds to the letting value of the tenement, then it is provided in certain circumstances that the improvement value is credited to him. If it is a case of five or six houses the liability immediately devolves upon the landlord. The tenant is not going to do the job because it is not in respect of his particular tenancy alone.

If it is a public sewer the public authority must do it.

It may be other things. I find in the Bill, for instance, that the word "improvement" is defined and the definition includes "the installation in the tenement of conduits for the supply of water, gas or electricity."

That is an ordinary improvement.

Conduits for water might well be required to be carried out by the landlord or occupier, as the case may be. If the occupier has to do it and it causes an improvement in the letting value, then something is due to the occupier. The amendment seeks to ensure that the landlord will get a chance of doing the job in preference to the tenant, but the tenant, if he has to do it eventually, is not going to get anything credited to him in the way of improvement value unless he has succeeded in serving on the landlord this notice within three days. I can see the probability unless the landlord is a next-door neighbour or lives very close to him, that that notice will not be served within three days, and the chances are that the tenant will have no improvement credited to him even though he has improved the letting value of the property. That, of course, simply raises the question as to what period should be allowed in which to serve notice on the landlord. If there were a sufficient period I could see some justice and decency in the amendment, but I think that in three days' notice you are practically depriving the tenant, or occupier, of the chance of getting an improvement value credited to him.

With reference to what Senator Johnson has just said, you must recollect that this section only applies in cases in which the tenant has no right under the present law to throw the obligation on to his landlord. If, under the existing law, the tenant has a right either to get the landlord to do it, or if he does it himself to recover from the landlord what he has spent on doing it, then this does not apply at all. But then, as is the ordinary remedy at law, he can sue the landlord for what he has spent because this is a contract with the landlord, and in nine cases out of ten the sanitary work is done outside the house, and as a rule the landlord has to do repairs outside a house, and that sort of thing. In nine cases out of ten the tenant will be entitled, if he does the work, whether he serves notice or not, to recover from his landlord. It is only in cases where he has not that right, where it is not the tenant's job, and where he cannot recover from his landlord, that this amendment applies. They are both equally liable so far as the sanitary authorities are concerned. Senator Connolly assumed that the liability was on the landlord. It is not. So far as the sanitary authority is concerned, it is on them both or either of them, and either of them can be made liable.

I think that the suggestion that has been made by the Minister is an admirable one. There is no reason why the sanitary order should not have an accompanying notice, not in any legal language at all, but in language such as any tenant can understand. If the tenant neglects to serve the notice on the landlord of what he has been ordered to do he will lose his rights against him for compensation afterwards. It ought to be done, not by reference to any section or anything of that kind, but in language which an ordinary tenant will understand. It is very seldom that a landlord is unknown to a tenant. He pays his rent to somebody. He is paying it to an agent if he is not paying it to the landlord. If the sanitary authority does not know who the owner is, in 99 cases out of a hundred the tenant does know who is his landlord, and there will be no difficulty about it.

What happens if the landlord happens to be out of the country?

Service on his agent would be sufficient.

If he is on holidays and has no agent?

Notice might be left at his dwelling.

The tenant might be on holidays also.

Could the Minister suggest any means whereby it would be incumbent on the local authority to serve the landlord with notice at the same time as the tenant?

They might not know the landlord; that is the difficulty. The sanitary authority is probably a doctor. In most cases he sees that something has to be done to a house. He knows who is living in the house, but he may not always know who is landlord of the house. In many cases I daresay it would be very difficult to know who is the landlord. I think the Senator will agree with me that it would not be at all desirable to have an amendment of the Public Health Acts in this Bill. The Public Health Acts are a particular code, and they should be kept together as a code. It would be very difficult to have a little bit of public health legislation coming into the middle of this legislation. If there was to be anything of that kind it really would require a short separate Bill.

I think it would be necessary to amend the public bye-laws.

My suggestion only followed the Minister's suggestion that notice might be sent to the landlord. It might serve the purpose just as well if notice was served for the landlord on the tenant.

I will approach the Department of Local Government and see if within the existing powers of the Department it would be possible to bring in such a regulation or such a bye-law.

Cathaoirleach

In the meantime this amendment will be dealt with.

Would the Minister let us know to-morrow?

Perhaps the Minister, in the meantime, would consider what should be deemed to be notice.

I frankly think, even if it is impossible to compel the public health authority to serve such notice, that this amendment would have to be carried to carry out the full scheme. You are imperilling tenants, possibly through their ignorance, but at the same time it seems to me that this is a valuable improvement in the Bill.

Without specifying what the notice is? You may have a case where a tenant could not possibly, within three days, serve notice on the landlord.

Amendment put and declared carried.

Cathaoirleach

Government amendment No. 7.

Section 16, sub-section (5). To delete in line 52 the figures "1930" and to substitute therefor the figures "1931."

It is owing to the fact that there has been a Public Health Act this year.

Amendment put and agreed to.
Debate adjourned.
The Seanad adjourned at 7.20 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 3rd December.
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