Government amendment No. 1:—
Section 8(being the new section inserted in Committee). To delete the section.
Public Business. - Cement (No. 2) Bill, 1933—Report Stage (Resumed).
Cathaoirleach
This amendment is to delete the new section which was inserted in Committee. It is proposed to insert the new section in a somewhat revised form. We have the draftsman's draft further down the paper, so that the first Government amendment is to prepare the way for the insertion of the agreed amendment, and I think that it was generally agreed that this amendment might be accepted. I should, perhaps, explain that the object of the revised amendment is to leave out the reference to importation of cement and import licences but to make it quite clear that, as regards the manufacture of cement, the Minister has to set up a standard specification, penalties to be inflicted, accordingly, on persons holding cement manufacture licences who do not carry out the order and manufacture cement according to the standard specification laid down by the Minister. The reference to importation of cement and import licences has been excised.
I am not quite sure of the effect of carrying this amendment but I presume, if carried, amendment No. 2 will not be capable of being moved.
Cathaoirleach
I think that would be so.
Therefore, I had better say a word on this amendment, appertaining to amendment No. 2. I felt on the previous stage that the position regarding the specification of cement to be manufactured under the general control of the Minister was fairly safe and, in any remarks I made, I laid stress on the necessity for fixing a standard quality for imported cement. Now I find that the promoters of the original amendment, presumably, are acquiescent in the deletion of the provision regarding importation. I am not going to oppose this amendment, and therefore amendment No. 2 on the Order Paper will fall. A case will arise on a later amendment, when I hope to persuade the House and the Minister that some further amendment is still required in this respect.
As one of those responsible for the original amendment, I might explain that the reasons for the change were that after inquiry we were satisfied considerable expense would be entailed if tests had to be made of cement coming into this country. We believed that that expense would be quite justified if Portland cement was going to be imported for a considered time, but we received assurances that it was not the intention of the Department to allow Portland cement to be imported, as soon as cement is manufactured here. Other authorities outside the Department assured us that there should be no difficulty in the factories here manufacturing all the Portland cement that is required. As the amendment only dealt with Portland cement, and not with other kinds of cement it did not seem justifiable to insist on the amendment to set up a specific standard for a period of nine months or a year, and involving considerable expense. We would not have given way if we were not satisfied that there was no likelihood of importation as far as Portland cement is concerned.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Amendment No. 2 not moved.
I move amendment 3:—
New section. Before Section 9 to insert a new section as follows:—
9.—(1) The Minister shall, as soon as may be after the commencement of this Act, by order under this sub-section appoint by reference to quality the standard to which Portland cement manufactured by holders of cement manufacture licences is to conform.
(2) The Minister may from time to time by order under this sub-section amend the order made under the immediately preceding sub-section.
(3) Every order made by the Minister under this section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made, and if a resolution annulling such order is passed by either House of the Oireachtas within the next subsequent ten days on which that House has sat after such order is so laid before it, such order shall be annulled accordingly, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done under such order.
(4) If any holder of a cement manufacture licence manufactures any Portland cement the quality of which does not conform to the standard for the time being appointed under this section, such holder shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding £100.
I second.
I do not think any special question arises on this amendment. In sub-section (1) the Minister must make an order, having reference to the standard quality of Portland cement, or by any holder of a cement manufacturing licence. By sub-section (2) the Minister may from time to time amend an order previously made. By sub-section (3) every order made by the Minister shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas, and within ten days may annual such order, provided such annulment will not prejudice anything previously done under the order. Sub-section (4) imposes a penalty on persons who hold cement manufacture licences who do not conform to the standard set up. On summary conviction they are liable to a fine not exceeding £100.
The House would be wise to accept this amendment, although personally I should have liked to have some protection against imports during the intervening period. It has been explained to me that that would involve considerable difficulty in administration and in arranging for the testing of cement in the different ports. The House will be perfectly safe in accepting the proposals now before it.
Amendment put and agreed to.
The following consequential amendments were agreed to:—
4. Section 11, sub-section (1). After the word "subject" in line 5 to insert the words "to the provisions of this Act relating to standard of Portland cement and",
5. Section 12, sub-section (1). After the word "cement" in line 9 to insert the word "manufacture".
6. Section 12, sub-section (1). To delete paragraph (h).
7. Section 12, sub-section (1). Before the word "controlled" in line 46 to insert the words "to be".
I move amendment 8:—
Section 32, sub-section (1). To add at the end of the sub-section a new paragraph as follows:—
(d) that the quality of the cement proposed to be imported under the licence does not conform to the standard of quality specified by the Minister.
This has reference nominally to Section 32, but really to Sections 30, 31 and 32, dealing with restrictions on imports. If this part of the Bill were only to apply between now and the date when the whole cement requirements of this country are home manufactured my argument would not apply, but it is almost certain that imports of cement will be required, even after the first factory begins to operate, and even after the second factory begins to operate, if the demand for cement increases. Certain indications have been given as to the capacity of the factories that it is intended to set up. I am assuming that some imports will be required from the date after the first factory begins to deliver cement. This licence provision will apply at that time. It is set out that a person who proposes to import shall make application, and every applicant shall set out certain particulars, one of which is "the nature and quality of the cement proposed to be imported under such licence." No person shall be entitled to import without a licence, and the licence shall state that the nature and quality of cement that is imported shall conform to that quality. That is presupposing that machinery will be set up to deal with offences under that section; that is, to see that the quality must conform to the quality defined in the licence. Then we have Section 32, which says:—
(1) The Minister may refuse an application for an import licence on any one or more of the following grounds and on no other ground whatsoever, that is to say:—
(a) that the applicant has not complied with the provisions of the immediately preceding section, or
(b) that the applicant has been convicted of an offence under the immediately preceding section, or
(c) that, having regard to the existing stocks of cement in Saorstát Eireann and the quantity (if any) of cement about to be imported under import licences already issued, it is not in his opinion expedient to grant such licence.
The applicant makes application and states the nature and quality of the cement he proposes to import and gives certain other particulars. If the applicant has given those particulars and has not been convicted of an offence, if there are no stocks in the Saorstát the Minister has no option but to give the import licence. As the Bill stands, there is nothing to prevent that applicant saying that the quality he proposes to import is a quality considerably below the grade to which Irish manufacturers are going to conform. We would have the possible position of the Department being faced with an applicant saying: "I am going to import No. 3 grade." The Minister has no right to refuse the applicant who may import a lower quality cement during the time that home manufacturers are not capable of filling Free State requirements. Then we have the position that the consumer, say a builder, is being allowed to build houses with an inferior grade of cement and manufacturers being met in competition in the home market with an inferior grade of cement, produced probably at a low price. To complete the scheme of the Bill it seems to me essential that the Minister should have power to insist that the standard and quality should conform to something with which he is satisfied. At present there is a gap. The Minister has no option but to grant the licence, provided that the nature and quality of the cement—no matter how low it may be—has been stated in the application. My amendment fills the gap.
I support the amendment. It is hardly possible to imagine that cement will not be imported. I have been assured that the Government will not allow any cement in once we are manufacturing cement here. Contingencies may, however, arise and cement may be imported much below the standard the Government has fixed.
I desire to support the amendment. If there is no restriction there will be a tendency towards importing cement of an inferior quality. When a standard has been set up it would be a pity not to restrict the importation of inferior cement. The clause in the Bill is permissive. As it is not mandatory on the Minister to grant an application, I think he would use his common sense in the matter and he should be given this power, which I think is essential.
I wish to support the amendment. The quality of the cement is important for cottages and other buildings. I use a great deal of cement. In my opinion, cement has been of great benefit to the farming community. It makes farmyards secure and keeps buildings free from vermin, rats and mice. There is an element of suspicion abroad that there will be unfair competition in the cement market. Remarks that are not complimentary are being made about cement which is dumped here at prices lower than the cost of manufacture. Stringent measures should be taken to secure that the best standard of cement is provided and a strict watch should be kept on the quality of imported cement. If necessary, a staff of inspectors should look after imports so that those who have to use cement would have a guarantee that they are getting the genuine article. As I mentioned before, there is any amount of material in the quarries in this country suitable for the manufacture of the best quality cement. I hope that when these cement industries are established they will be a success and of benefit to the country. We do not want other countries to be supplying us with cement when we have an abundance of the best material at home for its manufacture. I support the amendment.
I was under the impression, when we got some measure of agreement in the House on this Bill, that if the position as regards the manufacture of cement were safeguarded, the House would not insist upon compelling the Minister to lay down a standard specification in regard to the importation of cement. As Senators know, there is no definite proof that inferior cement is at present being imported in any great quantities. The position, so far as the Department of Industry and Commerce is concerned, is exactly as Senator Sir John Griffith mentioned a short time ago. I do not know at the moment what the exact legal implications of Senator Johnson's amendment, if accepted, would be. It is quite possible that the position that we sought to avoid, and the administrative difficulties that we thought we would get over by leaving the question of dealing with the importation of bad cement in the hands of the Minister, will be reopened again if the House accepts Senator Johnson's amendment; that, in fact, it may be necessary to take steps, let us say, to examine particular consignments.
The scheme of things as laid down in the Bill is that the Minister demands from every person who seeks a licence for the importation of cement a statement as to the nature and quality of the cement proposed to be imported. I think I can definitely assure the House that, unless the cement proposed to be imported is of a reputable and well-known quality or standard, the Minister will not grant the licence. But, in the event of his granting a licence for the importation of a certain quality of cement named by the applicant, the applicant will not succeed in getting the licence unless he satisfies the Minister that the standard is right.
On what grounds can the Minister refuse?
The applicant cannot import cement into the Free State under Section 30 unless it is of the quality and nature specified in the licence. Under Section 32 the Minister has only to satisfy himself that, from the existing stocks of cement, the quantity of cement about to be imported is of proper quality and can be obtained. I take it that the Minister will, in fact, be able to satisfy himself. It is not likely that a position is going to arise in which we shall be so short of cement that the only option left to the Minister will be to give a licence to a person to import what he definitely knows to be inferior cement. All the importers of repute in the country will be importing cement. As I have already told the House, they have been importing cement of a well-known standard quality for many years past. I think the Minister will have power to deal with that situation under paragraph (c). So long as he is satisfied that cement can be got from persons holding a licence, he will not be compelled to grant a licence in a case such as Senator Johnson mentioned. I think the position will be fully covered by the fact that the Minister will have to satisfy himself that the quality is of the right standard.
The only anxiety at present is that we should not, at this stage, upset the scheme which has been laid down in the Bill: that is that the matter should be dealt with between the Minister and the licensee. If we lay down a standard quality beforehand we will simply be raising all the administrative difficulties that I have referred to, and taking all discretion out of the hands of the Minister. I have already appealed to the House to leave this matter in the hands of the Minister. He gave an assurance in the Dáil, and I give a similar assurance now, that no licence will be granted for any cement that the Minister is not satisfied is of standard quality, and I think that ought to be sufficient.
May I point out again that the section is not mandatory? It is entirely permissive. The Minister can suit his orders to what he thinks is right. The section says "may".
I can quite understand that the Minister will contrive to cover up the defects of the Act. He will say: "Well now, I have really no legal grounds for refusing this man his licence. He is going to import No. 3 quality but I have no legal grounds for refusing him the licence. I will make an arrangement with Tom, Dick or Harry to import No. 1 quality, and then I will refuse to grant his licence on the grounds that there is a sufficient quantity of good quality cement here." I can quite understand the Minister doing that, but that is not the way to legislate, if we can avoid it. I quite believe that the Minister can find ways and means of fulfilling his intentions, and of securing that good quality cement is imported. My desire was to give him power under the law to do that, but he says he would rather not have those powers. He would rather make contrivances and agreements and, shall I say, enter into conspiracies with importers. Very well, if he thinks so. I am not going to force him to be a law-abiding citizen or a law-abiding law-maker. I realise quite well, the administrative difficulties. As this Bill has to go back to the Dáil in respect to a previous amendment, I would ask the Minister to again look into the matter, and see if he cannot fill the gap that is inevitably there by virtue of the words "on no other grounds whatsoever".
The position is that when the Bill comes before the Dáil again the Minister himself will probably be in charge of it. I can promise the Senator that I will recommend the Minister to look into the question, and if at all possible to accept either the amendment or the principle of it.
I quite admit that the amendment, in its present form, is not satisfactory.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Fifth Stage ordered for the next day on which the House meets.