Private Business. - Land Bill, 1933—Committee Stage. – Seanad Éireann (1931 Seanad) – Wednesday, 23 Aug 1933

Private Business. - Land Bill, 1933—Committee Stage.

Section 1 agreed to.

SECTION 2.

In this Act—

the expression "the Minister" means the Minister for Lands and Fisheries;

the expression "the first gale day in the year 1933" means the first day in the year 1933, in which is a gale day in respect of the annuity, rent, interest, or other annual payment in respect of which the expression is used;

the expression "officer of the Land Commission" includes a land commissioner other than the judicial commissioner;

the expression "lay commissioner" means a land commissioner other than the judicial commissioner;

references to proceedings for the recovery of any annuity, rent, interest, or other annual payment shall be construed as including a sale or proceedings for a sale of the holding, tenancy, or other land on account of a default in payment of such annuity, rent, interest or other annual payment.

Mr. Counihan

I move amendment No. 1:—

Section 2. Between lines 32 and 33 to insert the following:—

the expression "tenanted land" means land held in fee simple or land held under any contract of tenancy other than a letting for the purpose of temporary depasturage, agistment or conacre, or for temporary convenience, or to meet a temporary necessity, provided that such land is used by the owner or tenant thereof (as the case may be) as an ordinary farm in accordance with proper methods of husbandary.

The expression "tenanted land" is defined by Section 73, sub-section 2, of the 1923 Land Act as follows:—

The expression "tenanted land" means land held under any contract of tenancy other than a fee farm grant, or lease renewable for ever or lives or years or lease for a term of years of which 60 or more are unexpired at the date of the passing of this Act, or a letting for the purpose of temporary depasturage, agistment, or conacre, or for temporary convenience, or to meet a temporary necessity, and the expression "untenanted land" shall be construed accordingly.

In that definition, the expression "tenanted land" would not include land held in fee simple, and my main object in putting forward this amendment is to include such land in the expression "tenanted land." I cannot conceive any greater title to land by anybody than the title of land held in fee simple. What better title could a man have to his land? As the Bill stands at present a tenant farmer with seven acres, 15 acres, 40 acres or any quantity of land in fee simple might only have a complement of land which would be an economic holding. If that land is acquired by the Land Commission the owner will not be entitled to any of the privileges or considerations given to a tenant paying an annuity. I think that is grossly unfair. Furthermore, if such a holding is acquired by the Land Commission, even although it may be only just an economic holding, the Land Commission need not give the man who owns it anything except the market value of the land, whereas if they take the land of his neighbour, land that is being worked in precisely the same way as the land held in fee simple, under this or previous Acts for the relief of congestion or for any of the other purposes set out in the Bill, the Land Commission must give him—in fact he can demand it—a farm in return of not less value than the one that he holds. The Land Commission must do that simply because such a man is paying an annuity. I think there should be no objection to having my amendment inserted in the Bill.

Acting Minister for Lands and Fisheries (Mr. Aiken)

Senator Counihan's amendment is much more far-reaching than the Senator has stated. His amendment, if accepted, would completely change the definition of tenanted and untenanted land. It would mean that persons who hold their land in fee simple would have their farms purchased by the Land Commission and resold to them. The Land Purchase Acts were designed for the purchase of tenanted land and to facilitate tenants by reselling to them. If this amendment were passed the Land Commission would be compelled to purchase farms from ordinary farmers and resell them. That would involve the utilisation of State funds and State resources for making very large capital advances to people who are already well-off. I do not think there is any reason for the amendment.

Mr. Counihan

The point that the Minister has made is that if a man holds his land in fee simple he is not entitled to any consideration. I know hundreds of farms in several parts of the country that were purchased under the 1923 Act and previous Acts and they are very much larger than many fee simple holdings. I contend that, where the Land Commission buy fee simple land, so long as it is worked as an ordinary farm in accordance with the ordinary methods of husbandry, the owner of it is entitled to the same consideration as the man with 300, 400 or 500 acres that he has purchased under the Land Acts and that a man should not be penalised simply because he has bought his land and owns it in fee.

Colonel Moore

I have some sympathy with the point of view that has been expressed by Senator Counihan that what is proposed here is putting, so to speak, an embargo on one particular class of land holder. I suggest that somewhere in the Bill there should be a maximum of, say, 200 acres which cannot be taken from anybody for any purpose except in a most extreme case. I would also like to see a provision in the Bill protecting homestead land: that where a man had a certain small quantity of land with his home on it he could not be evicted from it under any circumstances except, perhaps, for the payment of rates. I think that even in the case of shop and other debts a man should not be liable to disturbance in the case of homestead land. There are Homestead Acts in operation in America and in other countries. Their provisions vary sometimes in the case of different States. Under these Acts a man cannot be sold out completely so as to beggar him forever.

Mr. Wilson

The Minister's objection to the inclusion of fee-simple land is because the State would have to purchase it from the owner. Senator Counihan's amendment is not designed to meet the case of the fee-simple owner of grass lands. The Senator has in mind the fee-simple owner of land that is tilled and worked in accordance with the ordinary methods of husbandry. He contends that the owner of such fee-simple land should have the same rights as his neighbour who is paying an annuity. The distinction about these two classes of land is really a paper one. Tenanted land is any land held under a contract of tenancy, and all other land is described as untenanted land. That distinction was made for certain reasons. There is no such thing now as tenanted land in the sense that that expression was understood when earlier Land Acts were being passed. If the owner of a particular parcel of land had the good fortune to buy the fee-simple of his holding out of his earnings, well, that is nothing to the State and why should he be penalised for it. I think it is unfair to penalise a man who invested his savings in that particular class of holding, who paid off the debts due on it and became the owner-in-fee: that he should be considered in the same way as the man who is paying an annuity and is a tenant of the State. I am not pleading for those who have very large holdings of untenanted land. This amendment deals with those who are working their farms according to the ordinary methods of husbandry in the same way as any tenant farmer works his holding. Perhaps the Minister would be willing to accept the principle of the amendment and introduce on Report Stage an amendment that would carry out the idea Senator Counihan has in mind.

Mr. Brown

I do not think this amendment goes the right way to do what Senator Counihan wants. Without saying anything on the merits of the matter, I merely want to make a suggestion as to how this could be carried out, not by way of definition, in which it certainly could not be carried out, but rather, I think, by way of amendment to sub-section (1) of Section 29. That is the section and sub-section which give protection to tenant purchasers. They give protection to those people who hold land which is defined in one of the sections of the Act of 1923, and which, for practical purposes, means lands purchased under the Land Purchase Acts. If you extend that to include holdings in fee-simple under a certain acreage, the land being used in the ordinary and proper manner, that would be the only way of achieving what is desired, consistently with the rest of the Bill. If Senator Counihan wants to pursue this he should withdraw the present amendment and put down an amendment to Section 29, sub-section 1.

Mr. Comyn

The criterion of acreage would not be a proper criterion. You must go on either valuation or value.

Mr. Counihan

The better procedure would be to have this amendment carried now, when we would probably have a better opportunity of getting an amendment from the Minister on Report Stage. This amendment could then be withdrawn.

Mr. Comyn

That would not be a proper way of dealing with the matter.

Sir John Keane

Before this amendment is put, I suggest to the Minister that he should consider the position of those who have redeemed their purchase annuities and who now hold in fee simple. These people have, in fact, been through the Land Purchase Acts and now hold in fee. They have a very strong case and I find it hard to believe that the Minister will not consider it very sympathetically.

Mr. Aiken

With regard to what Senator Sir John Keane has said, all purchased lands, whether the annuity has been redeemed or not, are covered by Section 29. If Senator Counihan wants to give land held in fee the same terms as purchased land by means of this amendment, it would mean that the Land Commission would have to purchase land held in fee so that it would become "purchased land."

Mr. Brown

Not if you amend Section 29 (1).

Mr. Aiken

Miss Browne

That is the crux.

Miss Browne

Mr. Quirke

It is a great thing to see Senator Counihan objecting to a discussion on the economic war, a thing that he has argued out on all occasions. The reason he is objecting now is because he knows the discussion would be against himself.

Cathaoirleach

I must ask Senators to keep to the amendment.

Mr. Counihan

We only want to get out the truth. I do not object to any discussion on the economic war.

Mr. Quirke

Cathaoirleach

I am sure the Senator heard what the Minister said.

Mr. Counihan

Yes, but it is not in the Bill.

Cathaoirleach

It will be in the records.

Mr. Counihan

I do not think the Commissioners will mind what is in the records; they just take what is in the Bill.

Amendment 2, by leave, withdrawn.

Sections 2, 3, 4 and 5 agreed to.

SECTION 6.

(3) All powers and duties for the time being vested by law (including this Act) in the Land Commission or the lay commissioners in relation to an excepted matter shall, on and after the appointed day be exercised and performed in all respects as if this section had not been enacted, save that

(a) any appeal which may lie by law (including this Act) from the determination of an excepted matter shall lie to the appeal tribunal, and

(b) the Minister may, if and so far as he thinks proper, arrange by reference to the class or classes of case or the county or counties in which the land concerned is situate the distribution amongst the lay commissioners of their work in relation to the excepted matters, but not so as to allocate any particular case or land to any particular commissioner.

Mr. Counihan

I beg to move amendment 3:—

Section 6, sub-section (1). To add at the end of the sub-section a new paragraph as follows:—

(g) the determination whether or not a holding has been used by the tenant thereof as an ordinary farm in accordance with proper methods of husbandry.

I ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Counihan

I move amendment 4:—

Section 6, sub-section (3). To delete paragraph (a) and to substitute therefor a new paragraph as follows:—

(a) an appeal shall lie both on the question of law and on the question of fact from the determination of an excepted matter to the appeal tribunal, and

I consider this amendment, if accepted, will make a very important difference in the Bill. The amendment would prove to be one of the most important for the safeguarding of the tenant's rights and independence. In my speech on the Second Reading I said that the excepted matters were mere eyewash. Unless this amendment is accepted I still contend that the excepted matters are all eyewash, and that we are setting up, in the person of the Minister for Lands and Fisheries for the time being under this Bill, a dictator over the farmers throughout the Free State. I still hold to that statement. Many sections of this Bill make the Minister a complete dictator. He has absolute and complete powers under Sections 5 and 6, and, also, under other sections, including Section 31. I need not read these sections. Let us consider what is the meaning of having an appeal on excepted matters to the appeal tribunal. Take the first one, the determination of the person from whom land is to be acquired or resumed. That is an excepted matter. The Minister cannot interfere as to the person from whom the land is to be acquired or resumed; the Land Commissioners are to have complete jurisdiction there. But the Minister takes, under the Bill, complete power over the Land Commissioners and other officers of his Department. We all know that political influence will compel the Minister to exercise his powers. No matter how determined they may be to stand upon their own judgment he will occasionally get round the Land Commissioners in another way. Under the old system there was an appeal, on all matters, to the judicial commissioner. In this Bill that is all swept away and we have only now an appeal on questions of law or on questions of price to the appeal tribunal. The procedure under this Bill will possibly be that the inspector will make a report on certain farms that are to be acquired. The Land Commissioners will examine that report. If they agree with the report that the land is to be acquired, they will notify the farmer that certain portions of his land are to be acquired. The only redress he will have in stopping the acquisition of this land would be to send a memorial to the Land Commissioners asking them to reconsider their decision; to pray that they would take into account that he is a man working his land in the ordinary way, and that he wants it for his own purposes. If, on reconsideration of that memorial, the Land Commissioners decide that this man has still to lose his land, he is finished so far as having any effect in stopping the acquirement of his land is concerned; and the only thing left is an appeal to the appeal tribunal on a question of price or of law. I do not think I am asking too much in trying to secure that in connection with any decision in a case of this kind, the farmer should have the right of appeal from the decision of the Land Commissioners to the appeal tribunal.

Mr. Comyn

(a), (b), (c), and (f) all go before the appeal tribunal, if there is an appeal.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 6 agreed to.

SECTION 7.

(2) Every lay commissioner appointed to be a member of the appeal tribunal shall hold his office as such member by the same tenure as a judge of the Circuit Court holds his office as such judge.

(5) Every question before the appeal tribunal shall be determined by a majority of the members of the tribunal, save that, on any question which, in the opinion of the judicial commissioner with the concurrence of one or both of the other members of the tribunal, is a question of law, the opinion of the judicial commissioner shall prevail.

Mr. Counihan

I move amendment 5:

Section 7, sub-section (2). To add at the end of the sub-section the words "and the first lay commissioners so appointed shall both have been officers of the Land Commission prior to the 1st day of June, 1933."

There are quite a number on the other side I would trust and there are quite a number I would not trust with anything.

Mr. Garahan

The appointment of these lay commissioners is a very important matter in the question of appeals. It is obvious that it is of importance to the person going before the appeal tribunal. It probably will affect his property and what means he will have of living after he is finished with the Land Commission. Men who are qualified for the position of land commissioner, I take it, must have some expert knowledge. The fact that they have been appointed as Land Commissioners previous to the passing of this Bill and before their services could be required on the appeal tribunal shows that they are people who must be, to a very large extent, fitted for the position. It would, as Senator Miss Browne said, allay the fears of those people who will be affected by the Bill with regard to the final determination of what is their rights. In the first instance, it is possible that a mistake may be made and the personnel of the appeal tribunal will be very important in that respect, so that if a mistake has been made in the determination in the first instance it can be set right. If this amendment is accepted a certain definition will be laid down as to the two lay commissioners to be appointed. I myself, without having inside knowledge of the Bill as drafted, cannot see why there should be any objection to accepting the amendment. I am sure that if the Minister does not see any great objection to it he will accept it. It will certainly make for a certain amount of confidence amongst the people who are going to be affected. For that reason I support the amendment and I ask the Minister to accept it.

Mr. Johnson

Quite obviously, the fount of this amendment is distrust of the Minister. I would ask those responsible for it to realise what it means. It is confining the choice to officers of the Land Commission prior to 1st June, 1933. On the assumption that the Minister is not only a fool but a rogue, the choice of officers of the Land Commission is a very wide one. I have heard all kinds of criticism of the Land Commission because of the enormous number of subordinate officers of all kinds that they have. Within this amendment it will be quite possible for the Minister to choose some of the Communist friends that Senator Miss Browne speaks of and do the thing that Senator Miss Browne desires to prevent him from doing, so that the amendment is not going to be effective. If the Minister wants to do this evil thing, I have no doubt that he can find the evil-doers in the Land Commission if he seeks them out, because there is a large staff there and in seeking them amongst the officers of the Land Commission he is not confining the choice to those versed in the technicalities of the higher range of Land Commission work. I suggest to the Minister that he should not allow himself to be bound by this rather foolish kind of amendment which merely means that we have no confidence in the Minister's judgment, in the Minister's honesty, or in the Minister's reasonable interpretation of the Act.

Mr. Aiken

I refused an amendment similar to this in the Dáil and, on that occasion, I pointed out that I believed that this Executive Council is just as competent to appoint land commissioners as any other Executive Council in the past.

Mr. Counihan

Agreed.

Mr. Aiken

The Executive Council, at the moment, have the appointment of judges, and, up to now, they have had the appointment of land commissioners. I do not see, for the life of me, why anybody might reasonably fear that the Executive Council in the future will not appoint men to the post of land commissioners or officers of the Land Commission or members of the appeal tribunal whom they can stand over in public. This amendment seeks to confine the choice to officers of the Land Commission. It has been found, however, from time to time, that officers of other Departments could be moved into the Land Commission. Three of the most senior men of the Land Commission at the moment are men of long experience in other Departments of the Government. They were put into the Land Commission because of their experience and they have done good work there. In practice from the point of view of carrying out the purpose of that amendment, I would have no objection to it, but there is a principle involved which I am not going to accept, and that is that the Executive Council is not to be entrusted with the appointment of the members of the appeal tribunal.

Mr. Counihan

I am assuming that the Executive Council will act with commonsense and that they will not, as Senator Johnson suggests they can, appoint Bolshevists in the Land Commission. My point, however, is that the members should be taken from the Land Commission. The Minister says that the Executive Council have the authority to appoint judges, but have they the authority to go outside the legal profession and appoint anybody they like as judges? They must draw the judges from a special section of the community, and that is the legal profession. That is one of the reasons which justifies this amendment and it cannot be taken as being any slur on the Executive Council. From the Minister's own statement, they have the power to appoint judges but they cannot go outside their particular class in these appointments. All I am doing in this amendment is to say that they must draw the members of their appeal tribunal from the Land Commission and I think the Minister need not think that we have any doubt as to their ability to appoint members of the Tribunal merely because we say that they should be appointed in the same way as the judges are appointed and must be drawn from a special class.

Amendment put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 25; Níl, 14.

Tá

Bagwell, John.
Bigger, Sir Edward Coey.
Brown, Samuel L., K.C.
Browne, Miss Kathleen.
Costello, Mrs.
Counihan, John C.
Dillon, James.
Douglas, James G.
Fanning, Michael.
Garahan, Hugh.
Guinness, Henry S.
Hickie, Major-General Sir William.
Jameson, Right Hon. Andrew.
Keane, Sir John.
Kennedy, Cornelius.
McGillycuddy of the Reeks, The.
Milroy, Seán.
Moran, James.
O'Connor, Joseph.
O'Hanlon, M.F.
O'Rourke, Brian.
Parkinson, James J.
Staines, Michael.
Toal, Thomas.
Wilson, Richard.

Níl

Chléirigh, Caitlín Bean Uí.
Comyn, Michael, K.C.
Connolly. Joseph.
Farren, Thomas.
Foran, Thomas.
Johnson, Thomas.
Linehan, Thomas.
Mackean, James.
Moore, Colonel.
O'Neill, L.
Phaoraigh, Siobhán Bean an.
Quirke, William.
Robinson, David L.
Robinson, Séumas.

Tellers:—Tá: Senators Counihan and Wilson; Níl: Senators S. Robinson and D. Robinson.

Amendment declared carried.

Mr. Brown

I move amendment 6:—

Section 7, sub-section (5). To delete in lines 63-64 the words "with the concurrence of one or both of the other members of the tribunal."

The object of this amendment is to reduce the appeals to the Supreme Court as to whether a question is or is not a question of law and by that means to save not only time but money and time is really the more important of the two. As the section stands, the two lay members of the appeal tribunal can over-rule the judicial member of the appeal tribunal on the question as to whether a particular matter is or is not a matter of law. It is a case of two lay men against a highly trained expert, because nobody gets to the position of judge in the High Court in this or, indeed, in any other civilised country, without being an expert on the question as to whether a question is or is not a matter of law. If the two lay members disagree with the judicial member I suggest that in the large majority of cases—I was going to say nine out of ten—they would be wrong and the judicial commissioner would be right and you would have an appeal practically in every one of those cases in which the two lay men differed from the judge, whereas if you leave it to the judicial commissioner alone to decide whether a particular question is or is not a question of law, he will be right in nine cases out of ten—I am giving those figures rather against him than in his favour—and you would have an appeal in only one case. In that way, not only money would be saved, but what is far more important in the administration of these land Acts you would save time. The appeal is to the Supreme Court.

My friend, Senator Comyn knows better than I do, because I have been so long away from the Bar, that the lists in the Supreme Court, in my recollection and I think they are pretty much the same now, are very congested, and, in fact, an Act like this would be required to relieve the congestion. That being so, if you had this large number of appeals, as you certainly would if you leave the section as it is, you would have a very long wait before you got a decision from the Supreme Court, and you would block that particular case in the Land Commission for a very long time. I suggest to the Minister that this is a reasonable amendment which he ought to accept.

Mr. Aiken

This Appeal Tribunal is, I think, a well balanced tribunal. It has to do not ordinary legal work, and a man who might have vast experience in the ordinary body of law might know very little about the Land Purchase Acts. We propose to associate with the judicial commissioner for the time being two lay men who have a thorough knowledge of the operation of the Land Purchase Acts throughout the country and of the practical problems that face the Land Commission. I do not believe that there will be any big number of appeals against the decision of a majority of the appeal tribunal, as to whether or not a question is a matter of law. This appeal tribunal is an exact replica of the tribunal that was set up under the Railways and Canals Act in the British Parliament somewhere in the 'eighties, and there, the majority decide whether or not a question is a question of law. I think that both the two lay commissioners and the judicial commissioner will have to be very sure of their ground before they give a decision as to whether a question is or is not a question of law. It will make the judicial commissioner careful in arriving at his decision on such a point because there will be an appeal against his decision sitting in the Land Commission just as there would be an appeal against his decision if he were sitting in the High Court.

Legal gentlemen are themselves subject to the same disabilities as other men. Men might be very practical and reasonable men going on the bench, but after a number of years—I think Senator Brown will agree with me in this—some of them get very cranky. I think it is a wise safeguard to provide that in the future the members of the appeal tribunal cannot take the bit in their teeth and, without reason, decide that a question is a question of law when it is not. There will not be a great number of appeals, because both the judicial commissioner and the lay commissioners will have in mind that they are not the final authority on this: that there is an appeal to a higher court against their decision. I think they will be very careful to see that there will be general agreement between them as to what are questions of law and what are questions of fact.

Mr. Brown

I do not agree with the Minister, with great respect, that the fact that the two lay commissioners are two sensible men with large experience of matters arising in the Land Commission under the Land Acts will help them at all in deciding whether a question is or is not a question of law. That is a question of law itself, and their experience will not help them in the least. My whole object in putting down the amendment was to try and prevent a multiplicity of appeals, with loss of time and loss of money. If the amendment had been accepted by the Minister that would have been achieved. The Minister said that the number of appeals will be few. I daresay they will, but the number would have been still fewer if my amendment had been accepted.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 7, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 8, 9, 10 and 11 agreed to.

SECTION 12.

Mr. S. Robinson

Section 14, sub-section (2). To delete in line 35 the figures and letters "15th" and to substitute therefor the figures and letters "31st."

Amendment agreed to.

Section 14, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 15.

Mr. S. Robinson

I move:

Section 15, sub-section (2). To delete in line 40 the figures and letters "15th" and to substitute therefor the figures and letters "31st."

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. S. Robinson

I move:—

Section 15, sub-section (4). To delete in line 15 the figures and letters "15th" and to substitute therefor the figures and letters "31st."

Amendment agreed to.

Section 15, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 16.

Mr. S. Robinson

I move:—

Section 16, sub-section (2). To delete in line 36 the figures and letters "15th" and to substitute therefor the figures and letters "31st."

Amendment agreed to.

Section 16, as amended, agreed to.

The McGillycuddy of the Reeks

I move amendment 14:—

I do not know that he does. A number of tenant purchasers would prefer to pay their annuity rather than have it funded and "in front of them," to use an expression common in the country. I suggest to Senators that they should not vote for this amendment.

Mr. Kennedy

Senator Comyn has alluded to the man who has always paid and who, he says, should continue to pay. In my opinion, the vast majority of farmers are not able to pay. I speak from experience of that part of the country to which I belong. I am a farmer myself. I know a case in which a young man had five cattle at the fair of Newtownmountkennedy the other day. They were over a year old. What did he get for them? £16 5s. 0d. for the five. Is it in accord with common sense or reason that that man should be expected to pay his annuities? He is a farmer in a small way and reared, I suppose, about ten of these cattle in the year. He would have got very much more out of these beasts if, in ordinary circumstances, he had sold them as dropped calves. I could give his name and address. For the five he got £16 5s. 0d. out of which he had to give a luck-penny. The position is that the people are not able to pay. How could they pay in circumstances of that kind? They go to fairs but they cannot sell a single beast. In the days gone by, the Minister for Agriculture used to go over and see how the sales were going in the Dublin market. I was over there recently and there were a large number of salesmasters but no sales at all. There is, of course, the market in the morning, as we all know, but there is a sale by auction in the evening. Although it was stated in the newspapers that cattle were sold at from 16/- to 20/- per cwt., I saw only six beasts there and I was in one of the biggest places in it. I was there a fortnight before that and there were only three beasts offered, not one of which was sold.

I do not understand the Minister's plea that this is going to cost the State so much money. This is a mere question of funding. Surely one thing should pay off the other. The rate that is to be charged on the bonds is to meet the cost of this funding. The annuitants who will pay what they will be called on to pay will free the State from any loss. This amendment is only giving the 40,000 what the others are getting. I do not suppose that the State is incurring a great deal of liability in funding these three years' arrears. Are we really incurring a great deal of expense in funding this and paying the rates that are to be paid by the annuitants or the people who are paying the annuities—is the State really incurring a very great liability in that part of the matter? I thought that the ultimate repayment of the moneys now to be funded would free the State from all liability in this matter and that there would be no loss to the State.

Some of them may. I would put this as a submission now to Senator Jameson: You have men who have been in the habit of paying their annuities even in difficult times. You are now going to say to these men: "You shall not pay anything for the next six years. We will fund it and charge you 4½ per cent. for it, even though you may have the money in your pockets or in the bank." These men who have been in the habit of paying are to get out of that habit.

Mr. Counihan

We will table an amendment in that connection on the Report Stage.

Mr. Johnson

I have listened to this discussion with some interest and amusement. I have been listening for the purpose of finding out the rights or wrongs, the justice or injustice of the claim. I cannot but remind myself of the discussions on the Moneylenders Bill. I had occasion to read the evidence given before the Commissions here and in England on the Moneylenders Bill. I find one great complaint was that the moneylenders were forcing their clients to keep on borrowing, never to let them get out of debt. That seems to be the case that is put forward in favour of this amendment. Further, I am amused in this way, that the arguments that have been adduced, while I have a good deal of sympathy with them, seem to me to be equally applicable to any trader's debt, any debt for house purchase, rental, milk—a trader's debt of any kind.

Let us say a man is in business and has 100 customers. A majority of them or a minority of them pay up-to-date. The remainder are not able to pay and the debts are wiped off as bad. Therefore, as a consequence, because he has wiped off the debt of a number of customers as bad, the merchant must be bound to say to the remainder "Because we wiped off the debts of these other people, we must reduce liabilities, or at least, we must ask you to borrow money from us to reduce your payment on account of your future purchases". I think it is very good to have that doctrine preached by merchants, manufacturers, bankers, house owners and farmers. Let us apply that to ordinary trading operations in a town. I think on these grounds we ought perhaps to support this amendment having in mind the debt case that Senator Miss Browne is so anxious about, so that the purpose of this amendment and the advocacy of those in favour of it should be borne in mind. It is a very useful argument that because we allow those who were unable to pay to have their debts cancelled, we are bound to follow that up, and say those who are able to pay must be treated equally. The unfortunate or the dishonest, whichever case you like to take, has to have his debt remitted, but the remainder must be treated equally well. That is a very good doctrine and I hope merchants, manufacturers and traders will bear that in mind in future.

Mr. Staines

The comparison made by Senator Johnson does not work. The traders, because of debts due to them, do not take away a man's livelihood from him.

Mr. Fanning

It is not a question of shopkeepers in towns. The question here is one of national liability, national responsibility and national honour. Senator Johnson can compromise if he likes on these matters. I am not prepared to compromise on them.

Sir John Keane

There are two things which came out in this debate, and one is the special knowledge Senator Comyn seems to have of the Irish farmers. I only know those in Waterford, and I do not know any of them who would not accept a remission of his debt. There are many in Clare, I suppose, who are only too anxious to pay up in the fullest terms in cash. I am rather puzzled at Senator O'Hanlon's argument. I do not gather from it whether he quite understands the position. Surely, actuarially, it is the same thing to fund a debt or to pay it, but in practice it is very different in having your liability extended over 50 years or paying it right away. I suggest it is a relief to a man to be able to pass on a debt to his children and his grandchildren.

Mr. Aiken

There is a terrible lot of potter about this amendment. It really means nothing. Senators who put it down hardly knew what they were putting down; that is clear from the retractions and the additions that have been made during the debate. The fact of the matter is, this applies to about 40,000 people who want to pay in order to get rid of their debt to the Land Commission. They will have to pay whether in 20 or 30 years, in order to get their land free from annuities. One Senator talked a lot about ten bullocks that were bought in the market. These 40,000 people only mean about £90,000. The annual rents run from about 5/- to £3 or £4, and the average is £2 annuity which will be reduced to half. It would be going too far taking a loan of a half-crown at 4½ per cent. for 50 years. That is really what the amendment means.

Mr. O'Hanlon

I would like to inform Senator Sir John Keane that I knew perfectly well what I was saying. I ask Senator The McGillycuddy, now, to say what genuine relief will come to the 40,000 farmers. The Minister says it means nothing. If that is so, I am surprised he does not accept this amendment.

The McGillycuddy

The debate has not altered the position I took up. I knew perfectly well what I was doing when I put down the amendment. Some other Senators did not read the amendment as carefully as I did during the three weeks which I took to prepare it. Senator Comyn made one point about the farmers and their position. He questions whether I represented the farming community. I am a farmer, living amongst farmers, and I have a very good idea of the farmer's mentality in my own county. I can say that the farmers welcome something in the shape of relief of any kind. You will find numbers of farmers now, who, in the past, had taken decadal reductions so as to allow their sons and their grandsons to bear some of the costs of land purchase. In the same way, rather than take their money out of the banks, they would prefer to go to the Board of Works and borrow for the purpose of building their houses. Why? Because they want their sons and grandsons to bear some of the cost while they are building up a home. I believe they will have the same view about the proposal in this amendment. The men I pick out are those who have partially paid, and I pick them out as impeccables. They are small men paying, perhaps, about £2 per annum, and I think they are, perhaps, more worthy of relief than any other citizen. It certainly will be a very great relief in these very serious times. Reading the Bill quite dispassionately I would say that the economic war does not enter into consideration at all. This is a question where the State takes a certain number of citizens and limits portion of their contracts. Others they allow to go on. I suggest that six years will put them on equal terms, and in the end the State pays nothing.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 24; Níl, 16.

Tá

Bagwell, John.
Bigger, Sir Edward Coey.
Brown, Samuel L., K.C.
Browne, Miss Kathleen.
Costello, Mrs.
Counihan, John C.
Dillon, James.
Douglas, James G.
Fanning, Michael.
Garahan, Hugh.
Guinness, Henry S.
Hickie, Major-General Sir William.
Jameson, Right Hon. Andrew.
Keane, Sir John.
Kennedy, Cornelius.
McGillycuddy of the Reeks, The.
Milroy, Seán.
Moran, James.
O'Connor, Joseph.
O'Rourke, Brian.
Parkinson, James J.
Staines, Michael.
Toal, Thomas.
Wilson, Richard.

Níl

Chléirigh, Caitlín Bean Uí.
Comyn, Michael, K.C.
Connolly, Joseph.
Duffy, Michael.
Farren, Thomas.
Foran, Thomas.
Johnson, Thomas.
Linehan, Thomas.
MacEllin, Seán E.
MacKean, James.
Moore, Colonel.
O'Neill, L.
Phaoraigh, Siobhán Bean an.
Quirke, William.
Robinson, David L.
Robinson, Séamus.

Tellers:—Tá: Senators The McGillycuddy and Counihan; Níl: Senators S. Robinson and D. Robinson.

Amendment declared carried.

SECTION 17.

(d) as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, the Land Commission shall ascertain the amount of the arrears of rent (other than any such rent which was the subject of proceedings by the immediate landlord which were pending at the passing of this Act and in which a defence was filed or entered before such passing) which were due and owing on the 15th day of July, 1933, by every such subtenant as aforesaid and the amount of the costs and expenses (if any) incurred by the immediate landlord before the passing of this Act in proceedings for such recovery;

Mr. Quirke

On behalf of Senator Seamus Robinson I move amendment No. 15:—

Section 17. To delete in line 62 the figures and letters "15th" and to substitute therefor the figures and letters "31st".

This is a consequential amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 17, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Sections 18 to 25, inclusive, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ever since I have taken part in Land Bill discussions I have tried to effect the object of this amendment. Senator Wilson referred to the possible justification in the past. There was justification in the early days of land legislation, when the British Government, not sure that these annuities would be honestly met, and naturally wishing to avoid the odium of collection and all that it involved in matters of high politics, said: "We will make sure of the fund to discharge the obligation to the bond holders by deducting it from the grants-in-aid." The position, however, is now utterly and entirely different. The Government have the power to collect the annuities and nobody else. If these annuities are not paid, under the present system, as Senator Wilson pointed out, they are collected from the whole body of ratepayers in the district. Is it justice that because A.B. does not pay his annuity his neighbours shall have to pay? Yet you deprive them of the power to collect. We know what peaceful persuasion means. You even deprive them of the power of blacklisting these people. I believe that some local authorities took advice as to posting the names of defaulters on the county council buildings, and they were told that if they posted one single wrong name they would be liable for an action for defamation of credit and all the rest. I want to point out one effect that this has in practice. In practice the Government, by getting this money easily by deduction, are undoubtedly lax in the collection of annuities. As a banker, I have come across these cases.

When people are allowed to run into arrears for seven or eight years and no steps have been taken, beyond sending them a notice, to enforce the payment of the annuities, look at the effect of that. These annuities are the prior charge on that farm. When that farm is put up for sale, all the other debts secured on that land disappear, and I say that it is most unjust to other creditors, who have mortgages on that land, to let those annuities mount up to such an extent that they swallow up the whole of the purchase price of the sale of that land and leave other creditors out in the cold and deprive them of their legal security. That is the effect. There is another effect also. I do not wish to impute dishonesty in any general terms, but everybody knows that there are individuals who take advantage of this accumulation of arrears to effect a deal in their land. Senator Comyn knows, from his legal experience, that there are dishonest men as well as honest men, and he knows that a frame-up sometimes takes place where the buyer and the seller know that there will not be an open market. A friend comes along and says: "I will put in a bid for that land; there will be no competition and we will share the proceeds." As a result of that dishonest deal, all the other creditors are wiped out and the security, even for shop-debts, is gone. The delinquent will have evaded all his liabilities and he gets a fresh lease of life.

The whole thing is wrong, and it is aggravated by the action of this Guarantee Fund which gives the Government an inducement to be lax in the collection of those annuities. Where the Government has been lax in the past—and for very good reasons, because it is not pleasant to go to these people to collect their arrears of annuities when you can get them in another way-they could always collect their arrears from the Grants-in-Aid. The whole thing is wrong, inequitable and most unjust, and has long outlived its purpose.

Mr. Johnson

I suggest that if the purpose of the amendment is to abolish the Guarantee Fund entirely, I do not think it would be accomplished by this amendment. However, I would raise another matter of more importance. One has learned, in the course of inquiry into local government accounts and State finances generally, how intimately bound up this Guarantee Fund is with all kinds of local and national finances, and to accomplish the abolition of the fund by means of an amendment in the Seanad in this way is going to do, probably, too much without due consideration. It seems to me that it is a matter that would have to be brought forward inevitably in connection with other financial adjustments in other circumstances and ought to be brought forward by a Ministry. I think the case that Senator Sir John Keane has made is a good one, but I do not think it should be accomplished in this rather casual way. This Guarantee Fund, as I said, is very closely associated with all kinds of local government and national finance, and I think it is very unlikely that the Dáil would agree with it in this form. I suggest that the line the Seanad should take is to indicate favourable reaction to this proposal, but not to attempt to make this very big change in the financial arrangements of the country by almost a casual amendment to a Land Bill.

The McGillycuddy

I agree with what has been said that this is a great grievance, and it is the opinion of practically every county council in the country that this should be removed. I think we shall do something to remove it.

Sir John Keane

Senator Johnson objects that this is complicated. I know it is complicated, but it seems perfectly clear that this money has got to be paid. If it is not paid, it is deducted from the grants. If it is no longer deducted, it has to come into the Budget. The purpose of the Guarantee Fund is not working now. Let Senator Johnson be clear on the point. There is no distinct association between the annuities and the bondholders. The bondholders are a general debt secured by the Consolidated Fund. The annuities were absolutely associated with the Guarantee Fund in the past. That has all gone now. It is all pooled and melted and in the future the Minister for Finance says: "I shall budget for a certain amount of annuities, and if I do not get that amount it will have to be put on the general taxpayer." There is no complication whatever about it. I agree that there may be some difficulty as to the proper draftsmanship of the amendment but, if the principle is acceptable to the Seanad, I am sure the Government would at least give us the assistance of its advisers in the Parliamentary draftsman's office to put it into shape.

Mr. Toal

This is a long-standing grievance with county councils, and I hope the amendment will be accepted. We do feel that it is a great injustice to the honest ratepayers of the country that they must pay for the defaulters, and I must say that the Government or the Land Commission have been very lax up to the present. They have made no effort, in a great many cases, to enforce payments. They allowed them to drift on for years and years, and then in the end, when the sale of the land came about, they put in their claim with the result that honest traders were deprived of their debts. People know that they can get off in this way and they take advantage of it. The county councils have been protesting for years, and I hope the Minister will see his way to readjust this long-standing grievance.

Mr. Aiken

This particular amendment does not do what the Senators say they want to have done: that is, to abolish the Guarantee Fund. It only refers to arrears arising out of this Part of this Act, and it refers to the deficiencies in the Land Bond Fund and not the deficiencies in the Guarantee Fund. The Land Bond Fund is a fund out of which comes the interest on the bonds issued in respect of land purchased since 1923, and the Government has already made that Fund good in respect of arrears that have been forgiven since 1932. There were two Estimates passed; one was for £1,400,000 which was introduced into the Dáil a few months ago, and the other was for £1,616,000. However, it is quite clear that what the Senators want is the abolition of the Guarantee Fund, and I am not prepared to agree to it. It does, undoubtedly, help the Government to collect the land annuities, and it will have to be kept on until there is a change of policy in the matter.

Sir John Keane

I think what the Minister has just said was an utterly unconvincing defence of the position. The Minister says it helps the Government to collect. Of course, it helps the Government to collect, but by passing it on to the whole body of the ratepayers who have had nothing approaching the relief to which they are entitled. Of course, it helps the Government to collect, but is it just? The Minister makes no attempt to justify it, and I consider he has adopted a most unaccommodating attitude, and I hope the House will support the amendment.

Mr. Comyn

Amendment put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 22; Níl, 13.

Tá

Bagwell, John.
Bellingham, Sir Edward.
Brown, Samuel L., K.C.
Browne, Miss Kathleen.
Costello, Mrs.
Counihan, John C.
Dillon, James.
Douglas, James G.
Fanning, Michael.
Garahan, Hugh.
Jameson, Right Hon. Andrew.
Keane, Sir John.
Kennedy, Cornelius.
McGillycuddy of the Reeks, The.
Milroy, Seán.
Moran, James.
O'Connor, Joseph.
O'Hanlon, M. F.
Parkinson, James J.
Staines, Michael.
Toal, Thomas.
Wilson, Richard.

Níl

Chléirigh, Caitlín Bean Uí.
Comyn, Michael, K.C.
Connolly, Joseph.
Duffy, Michael.
Farren, Thomas.
Foran, Thomas.
Johnson, Thomas.
MacEllin, Seán E.
Moore, Colonel.
Phaoraigh, Siobhán Bean an.
Quirke, William.
Robinson, David L.
Robinson, Séamus.

Tellers:—Tá: Senators Wilson and Garahan; Níl: Senators S. and D.L. Robinson.

Amendment declared carried.

Section 27, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

SECTION 28.

(3) Immediately upon receipt from the Land Commission of a warrant under this section the county registrar shall, after serving such notices and doing such acts as may be prescribed in that behalf by regulations to be made by the Minister for Justice, proceed to levy the money therein certified to be due by the defaulter in the same manner as execution orders at the suit of the Land Commission are by law leviable, and such county registrar shall, for that purpose, have all such rights, powers and duties as are for the time being vested in or imposed on him by law in relation to the execution of an execution order including such rights, powers and duties as are for the time being vested in or imposed on him by Section 31 of the Land Act, 1927.

Mr. Brown

I move amendment 20:—

Section 28, sub-section (3). To delete the sub-section and to substitute therefor three new sub-sections as follows:—

(3) Immediately upon receipt from the Land Commission of a warrant under this section the county registrar shall serve such notices and do such acts as shall be prescribed by regulations to be made by the Minister for Justice, including a notice by the county registrar of his intention, after the expiration of 15 days from the service of such notice, to levy the amount mentioned in such warrant as due by the defaulter to the Land Commission.

(4) Within 14 days after the service by the county registrar of the said notice of his intention to levy the amount mentioned in the last preceding sub-section, the defaulter may make and file with the county registrar a declaration in the prescribed form, stating either that he does not owe the amount claimed to be due by him to the Land Commission or that he is not the person liable to pay the same, and thereafter it shall be lawful for the Land Commission, if and when the Land Commission thinks proper, to take any remedy which the Land Commission may have by law for the recovery of such amount other than the remedies given by this section to the Land Commission.

(5) Immediately after the expiration of the period of 14 days mentioned in the last preceding sub-section, if the defaulter has not prior thereto made and filed such declaration in the prescribed form as is mentioned in such sub-section, the county registrar shall proceed to levy the amount certified to be due by the defaulter in the warrant issued by the Land Commission under sub-section (1) of this section in the same manner as Execution Orders at the suit of the Land Commission are by law leviable, and such county registrar shall for that purpose have all the rights, powers and duties for the time being vested in or imposed on him by law in relation to the execution of an Execution Order, including such rights, powers and duties as are for the time being vested in or imposed on him by Section 31 of the Land Act, 1927 (No. 19 of 1927).

This is the section which gives the Land Commission the right to issue a warrant to the county registrar which is to be executed by the sheriff in the case of anybody who is a defaulter in the payment of his annuities. The object of the section is to save the cost both to the State and to the defaulter of proceedings at law in the District Court or the Circuit Court, as the case may be, to recover the arrears due. There is no doubt that the amount of the cost to the State and, sometimes, to the defaulter is very considerable. Although I am of opinion that no Department of State should be judge and executioner in its own cause, I am not seeking by this amendment to interfere with the power of the Land Commission to do this in any case in which there is no doubt as to the amount that is due or as to the person by whom it is due. The amendment is directed entirely to the case where there has been or is a mistake either in the amount due by the alleged defaulter or as to the person by whom it is due. I want only to protect the honest defaulter and to give him a chance, where there has been a mistake, of having the mistake rectified.

The amendment is somewhat technical but I can explain it in a few words. Under my proposal, sub-sections (1) and (2) of the section in the Bill will stand but sub-section (3) will be deleted and will be substituted by the three sub-sections in the amendment. Under the first of these sub-sections, upon receipt from the Land Commission by the county registrar of a warrant, he is to serve such notices and do such acts as shall be prescribed by regulations to be made by the Minister for Justice, including a notice by the county registrar of his intention, after the expiration of 15 days from the service of such notice, to levy the amount mentioned in the warrant. That is to say, he is to give the defaulter 15 days' notice of his intention to levy. The next sub-section provides that within the next fourteen days—that is, fourteen days after the service of that notice by the county registrar—the defaulter may make and file with the county registrar a declaration in the prescribed form stating either that he does not owe the amount claimed to be due by him or that he is not the person liable to pay the same. That notice will be in the prescribed form and the prescribed form should oblige him, if he is quarrelling with the amount claimed, to state how much he does owe, so that the amount of the alleged mistake will be known as soon as he makes the declaration. In case he alleges that he is not the person liable to pay the amount, he should explain why he is not the person and, so far as his knowledge goes, who is the person liable.

Once that declaration is made under this sub-section, the county registrar has no longer the power of making a levy and the Land Commission are then put to their other remedies at law, whatever they are. In case there is no declaration made by the defaulter on one or other of these matters, then the sheriff is to go on and levy. That provides a perfect remedy in the case of mistake. It is admitted there are mistakes. They will be very few and the cases in which the defaulter will have to make this declaration and to stop the warrant will be very few. If the prescribed form is in the form I have indicated, it will have to state whether the question is as regards amount or as regards the defaulter's personal liability. This procedure cannot result in any subsequent litigation. The question at issue will then be fixed up between the defaulter and probably the county solicitor.

Mr. Aiken

I have every sympathy with what Senator Brown proposes to effect by means of this amendment, but I think that it would be much wiser for the Seanad to leave the drawing up of the regulations to the Department of Justice, in consultation with the Land Commission. It is a very intricate matter and I do not think that anyone outside these two Departments, without intimate knowledge of the day to day work, could really do what Senator Brown proposes to do—that is, draft regulations for the carrying out of the operative part of the section. Senator Brown proposes to give, in the first place, 15 days' notice. I can promise that in the regulations to be drafted there will be adequate notice given by the sheriff to all persons concerned, in addition to the ordinary notice given by the Land Commission. First of all, the receivable order is sent back to the tenant purchaser a couple of months before the annuities are due. After the gale day, it is a month or sometimes six weeks before the six-day notice is sent out, so that the tenant purchaser will have at least 2½ months or thereabouts to make up his mind whether or not he will give the Land Commission notice that he disputes the payment upon which he is assessed. I can promise that, in addition to that time and these notices, a reasonable time—say 15 days or so—will be given by the sheriff that he has in hands a warrant from the Land Commission and that if the defaulter does not pay up he will proceed against him. I can further promise that the regulations will provide that where the defaulter establishes a prima facie case that he is not the person liable, the Land Commission will not proceed by means of the powers conferred in this section but will proceed in the ordinary way through the courts.

I promise to carry that out.

Mr. Brown

Perhaps the Minister would kindly lay them on the Table of the House or say if we could see them.

Mr. Aiken

I think all rules and regulations of the Land Commission are available in the Library.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section agreed to.

The Seanad adjourned at 7 p.m. and resumed at 8 p.m.

SECTION 29.

(1) Sub-section (4) of Section 24 of the Land Act, 1923, is hereby repealed and in lieu thereof it is hereby enacted that when the Land Commission declare that any land (in this section referred to as the declared land) coming within clause (a) of sub-section (2) of the said Section 24 is required for the purpose of relieving congestion, and the tenant or proprietor of the declared land or the wife or the husband of such tenant or proprietor resides on or in the immediate neighbourhood of the declared land and uses it in the same manner as an ordinary farmer in accordance with the proper methods of husbandry, then, if such tenant or proprietor is not the owner of land (other than the declared land) the market value of which exceeds the sum of £2,000, the Land Commission shall, if within the prescribed time and in the prescribed manner such tenant or proprietor requires them to declare and acquire his entire land and to provide him with a new holding, provide such tenant or proprietor with a new holding which the lay commissioners (subject to a right of appeal to the appeal tribunal, whose decision shall be final) consider to be of not less market value than the declared land or of not less market value than £2,000 (whichever shall be the lesser sum).

(2) Where the Land Commission provides such tenant or proprietor with a new holding under the next preceding sub-section the balance of the purchase money of the declared land over and above the market value of such new holding shall be payable in land bonds.

The McGillycuddy

On Section 29, I wonder if the Minister could give us a definition of what he means by the relief of congestion. It is rather an important point in the context of this Bill. Secondly, could he tell us the number of congests immediately to be dealt with under the Bill?

Mr. Aiken

I have not the exact figures of the number of uneconomic holders in the country. As to the relief of congestion, I would put it this way. The Land Act of 1923 defines what a congest is. Section 73 (4) says:—

"The expression ‘relieving congestion' means the provision of land for the relief of a person or persons having an uneconomic holding or uneconomic holdings or for a person or persons whose holding or holdings has or have been acquired for the relief of persons having uneconomic holdings."

The McGillycuddy

Could the Minister give us the approximate number of congests?

Mr. Aiken

There are about 170,000 farms under a £7 valuation.

Mr. Parkinson

Before we go further in the discussion on Section 29 I should like to ask the Minister if he would tell us if there is anything in the section that will in any way interfere with the right of the people who have stud farms. These rights were protected under the Land Act of 1927. Section 9 of that Act protected people who have these stud farms. These people are now very greatly alarmed for fear anything in the Bill might interfere with their rights to run these stud farms. The stud farm is, of course, mainly in grass, and it has to be, if the stud farm is of any consequence. The Minister will see that Section 9 of the Land Act of 1927 gave protection, subject to the Minister's sanction, to these stud farms.

Mr. Aiken

There is nothing in this Bill which takes away from the protection given in Section 9 of the Land Act of 1927 to stud farms. Apart altogether from the legal protection given in that Act, I do not think anybody would interfere with the stud farm. Usually in a stud farm you have very much more employment given for the number of acres than you would have even in a tillage farm.

Mr. Comyn

I am very much surprised that any question should have been raised in regard to this matter. This Bill does not at all interfere with the fixity of tenure in regard to stud farms. They are sufficiently protected by the Act which was passed some years ago. Nobody need have any doubt that as long as stud farms are kept going there will be no interference with them.

Mr. Parkinson

I am very much obliged to the Minister for his statement, and I am also obliged to Senator Comyn for his help in the matter. This is a question which has a bigger effect outside than inside the country, because there has been a lot of misrepresentation about what this Bill will and will not do. What the Minister has said will give a good deal of confidence to people who are frightened about what might happen.

Mr. Wilson

I move amendment 21:—

Section 29, sub-section (1). After the word "exceeds" in line 53 to insert the words and figures "where the land in question is situated within a radius of 15 miles from any of the cities of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford the sum of £4,000, and where such land is situated within a radius of ten miles from any town having a population of 10,000 according to the census of 1926 the sum of 3,000, and where such land is situate elsewhere".

The object of this amendment is to provide that where land is situated in the vicinity of a city or where there is what is known as proximity value, the amount of land which the owner would be entitled to hold would be increased from the £2,000 value in the Bill to £4,000 value. If one were to judge of the value of land by the annuities which are paid now under purchase conditions, that is in the case of vested land, there would be a huge discrepancy between different areas. In the case of vested land seven miles from the City of Dublin the rentals now being paid are mostly about £2 per Irish acre, and of course it is the rentals or the annuities that will fix the price that the farmer is to get for the land that is taken from him.

It has been frequently stated that the average rental for land is somewhere about 6/- or 7/- an acre. Where the rental would be so low, the £2,000 would give a holder of land a considerable area; but where the rental is high, £2,000 worth of land would give a very small area. The amendment is so arranged that in the vicinity of the four cities of the Free State, and in towns of 10,000 of a population, a greater value might be allowed in order that the area would be sufficient to attract a farmer's children to remain on the land. Farmers' children living beside a city naturally have ambitions away from the land. If you confine a farmer to a small area, his boys, instead of taking to the land, will prefer some other mode of living. They have ample facilities for education by reason of their proximity to the cities. If the area which is allowed the farmer is too small, you will have a situation arising where the learned professions, which at the moment are overcrowded, will be considerably overcrowded. In order to balance a situation of that sort, you ought to allow an increase in value to the holder of land in areas such as I have designated.

Mr. Counihan

Section 29, in effect, says to the farmers: "Thus far shalt thou go and no further." If a farmer's son who has ambitions realises that he has no means of extending his property and that the possibilities of development are curtailed, largely through the action of the Land Commission under this measure, he will not remain on the farm. I would very much prefer the conditions that obtained under the Act which has been described as a Bolshevik measure, the 1923 Act. It appears that every Act tends to reduce the farmer's possibilities. Senator Johnson has forecasted that next year, or in two years' time, we probably will have a Land Bill curtailing the farmers very much more than does this measure.

The whole policy of this Government is to split up the land. Is that a wise policy? Do the Government realise the result of splitting up holdings all over the country? Do they realise the effect it will have on dairy farming? Do they realise that the splitting up policy tends in the direction of lessening rather than increasing production? Every farmer knows perfectly well that to till certain portions of his farm would be a great mistake. It would be very hard to induce a practical farmer to till certain divisions of his land. He knows from practical experience that the best way to utilise that land is to keep it in grass, and for that reason he will never allow a plough to go into it. If we take the Free State as a unit, the same thing will apply.

Mr. S. Robinson

I wish the Senator would show us how his argument is connected with the amendment.

Mr. Counihan

My argument bears upon the cutting-down of holdings to the value of £2,000. I am dealing with the section also. I maintain that it would be a great mistake to till all the good land of this country or break it up. If you make it into very small farms it will not even then be economical as a grazing proposition. Senator Johnson spoke about a man and his dog. Does the Senator realise that it is the people who own the large grazing farms who are most useful to the residents of the congested districts in the South and West of Ireland? Those men pay a good price for the stock raised by the small farmers, and if they were not in a position to take the stock the small farmers would have to go out of stock raising. If the big farmers are going to become tillage farmers there will not be much use for the small dairy farmers. The people who will suffer most by a splitting up of the land will be the small farmers in the congested districts.

Mr. O'Connor

Mr. Counihan

The Government is given that power.

Mr. Aiken

The Bill does not say that every holding is going to be cut down to a holding value £2,000. That is the definite statement the Senator made. I made a note of it at the time. If Senators will open their ears and allow the reasoning of the Bill to get into their heads, I think they will not be so alarmed as they have expressed themselves to be. Section 29 has to be read in relation to the rest of the Bill. Because of a lot of similar statements made in the Dáil, we introduced an amendment to Section 32, which put down in black and white the policy of the Land Commission and the policy of the Government in relation to all lands, no matter how held, no matter under what lease or what tenure it is held. Senator Counihan said that he wished we would revert to the 1923 Act. What was the effect of the 1923 Act? It left 80,000 holdings in this country that were subject to judicial tenancies without any protection whatever. No matter how the lands were worked the Land Commission could resume them, not leaving the occupier a portion value £2,000, £1,000 or £500, but taking all his land and giving him land bonds in return. Notwithstanding the fact that the Land Commission had these powers, they have been very rarely exercised.

The owners of land do not belong to one political party in this country. Fianna Fáil supporters are as much interested in the tenure and the ownership of land as the followers of any other Party. The idea we have tried to get into this Bill is that a man who is working his land in the interests of the community shall not be touched. The Bill does not propose to cut down all farms to £2,000 market value, and I do not believe that any Fianna Fáil supporter ever advocated such a policy. You have in Section 32 more protection given to judicial tenants and to certain lands held in fee-simple than was given in any section of the 1923 Act or subsequent Acts. Under these Acts, lands held either in fee-simple or held under a judicial tenancy could be acquired and resumed and the owner got nothing in exchange except land bonds. Here it is clearly set out that any farmer who works his land, gives adequate employment and produces an adequate amount of foodstuffs, considered in relation to the amount of unemployment and the amount of food that the country requires, shall be secured in his holding.

Mr. Milroy

By what section?

Mr. Aiken

Section 32.

Mr. Milroy

Which sub-section?

Mr. Aiken

The whole of the section. That is definitely giving more protection to judicial tenants and to owners of fee-simple land than was given under the 1923 Act. What the Bill, however, does is this. It says that the extent of land that can be misused by anybody is £2,000 worth. The extent of vested land that can be misused by a vested owner is £2,000 worth. There is sufficient land in the country and the circumstances are such that we believe there is no necessity to go further. But any Government here in this country or in any other country will always have to take cognisance of the way in which land is being utilised. The area is limited and the needs of the population must be met from that limited area of land. No Government could stand idly by and see land being misused or not used for the benefit of the community, not giving the employment that is required and not producing the foodstuffs required by the community.

Senator O'Connor adverted to one fact and if the significance of that were fully appreciated, I think we would have the unanimous support of the country for the policy we are trying to follow. I do not want to debate the general agricultural, political or economic policy of the Government on this Bill, but Senator O'Connor adverted to the fact that more competition is being met with in England for cattle; that the weekly arrivals of cattle in the British market from Canada and other countries are growing. Let that fact bear its full weight and significance and we must realise that we cannot in future depend upon selling cattle in the British market at a price that would cover the cost of production here. The tendency for cattle to fall below the cost of production began many years ago. We would be foolish if we said that our people in this fertile land must starve because people in some other part of the world will not buy our cattle at a price which will pay us to sell to them. We have land here and the use we should make of that land is to provide the highest standard of comfort for our people. The reason we have to sell cattle is to pay for our imports.

If we had not to import all the coal and wheat and feeding stuffs we have been importing there would have been no necessity for us to export and we would have been as well off without exporting any cattle. We know that until our policy of self-sufficiency has had full effect we have to export, but we must all see that the race for economic national self-sufficiency is going to be one which means life or death to every nation in the world. There are more economic wars going on than the one between Ireland and England. Every country in the world has economic wars with all its neighbours. We have to take cognisance of the fact and to realise that every country is finding it more difficult day by day to export sufficient to pay for its imports. It is with that end in view that we want to secure that our unemployed are absorbed on the land and if the present owners of the land are not going to absorb them they will have to get out and make way for somebody who will work the land. We will not interfere at present with the owner of vested land to the extent of £2,000 market value. Over £2,000 market value we are going to insist that that man shall use his land in the interests of the community, shall give the employment and produce the foodstuffs that the community require from him.

Take Senator Wilson's amendment relating to the proximity value of land near cities. The Senator is very much out in his percentage of the increased value due to proximity to populous centres. Everyone must realise that there is proximity value and that land near the cities in some cases must be used for the feeding of dairy cattle during the summer. We have not tightened up the Bill so much that we are compelling the Land Commission to exclude that fact from their minds. You have again in Section 32 a clause which says that the Land Commission shall take cognisance of the desirability of increasing the production of food supplies and such land as is producing an adequate amount of agricultural products and is providing an adequate amount of employment, etc. So that the Land Commission can take cognisance of the fact that certain lands are near towns and cities and if they are producing food in the form of milk it will always be found that there is more employment given per 100 acres on a dairy farm than there is on any other farm. There is nothing in this Bill which says that unless a man tills 15, 20, 25 or 50 per cent. of his land he should be turned out. There are two factors: one is the employment factor and the other is the production factor. The production of milk is the production of food and it gives more employment than any other form of food production. So that from that point of view I do not think Senator Wilson need have any alarm. As I say, all that we are doing in the Bill is to state in legal form that the area of vested land which an owner can misuse is £2,000 worth.

Mr. Wilson

Mr. Toal

If that were so, it would be very encouraging, because the Minister knows as well as I do the struggle that we in the Northern counties had to get land at all, and I know that there would be a very great struggle before we gave up the land for which we had fought so strenuously and so long. I think it would be very unfair if farms of land were taken from people who put up such a long fight for them. There may be families in possession of lands who may not be in a position to till the land up to the required standard, but if the statement the Minister made to the effect that it was not intended to interfere with farms under £2,000 valuation were confirmed it would be very satisfactory.

Colonel Moore

I should like to draw the attention of the Minister to this phrase—

"... and the tenant or proprietor of the declared land or the wife or the husband of such tenant or proprietor resides on or in the immediate neighbourhood of the declared land and uses it in the same manner as an ordinary farmer in accordance with the proper methods of husbandry...."

This is a thing that occurs in my part of the country to a very great extent. A farmer with a number of children dies and leaves his wife and children on the land. They are unable to carry out the tilling of the land owing to the heavy burden constituted by the young children and, whether they like it or not, they have to sub-let the land to some other person, perhaps for several years. That is a case that has come under my own notice. I have known families in that position—good working people, but too busy rearing young children to be able to work the land. Those people do not fulfil the conditions. They are not working the land as proper farmers should, and they would be liable to have their land taken away under the wording of the section.

Mr. Wilson

A Chathaoirligh——

Cathaoirleach

I think you have spoken three times already, Senator.

Mr. Wilson

I merely want to withdraw the amendment. I tried three times to get up, but was not allowed.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. S. Robinson

I move amendment 22:—

Section 29, sub-section (1). After the word "Commissioners" in line 57 to insert the words "consider to be suitable for such tenant or proprietor and also consider".

Mr. Aiken

This amendment, with No. 23, is introduced to give effect to a promise I made on the Fourth Stage in the Dáil to the effect that the alternative holding given to the tenant would be suitable to him.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Robinson

I move amendment 23:—

Section 29, sub-section (1). To delete in line 59 the word "consider".

This is consequential on the previous amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment 24 not moved.

Mr. Brown

I move amendment No. 25:—

My answer to Senator Comyn is this: that the Land Commission will not be left with the choice of taking the holding that would not be suitable for the relief of congestion. I cannot imagine any holding of the value of over £2,000 not being fit for the relief of congestion. I have asked the House to give me leave to withdraw the amendment, with the intention of putting in an amendment for Report Stage, which will confine this right to two holdings that are in the same locality.

Mr. Comyn

I spoke in order to assist Senator Brown.

Mr. Brown

I agree.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The McGillycuddy of the Reeks

I move amendment 26:—

Section 29. To add at the end of the section two new sub-sections as follows:—

(8) In any case in which the Land Commission provides the tenant or proprietor of a holding with a new holding under the provisions of this Act, the Land Commission shall pay such full compensation to such tenant or proprietor for all loss as is the direct result of his transfer to the new holding and shall also pay to such tenant or proprietor the actual cost of the removal by such tenant or proprietor of himself and his family and household and also of his stock, farm implements and furniture to the new holding.

(9) In the absence of agreement, the amount of the compensation payable under the next preceding sub-section shall be determined by the appeal tribunal.

The principle of compensation for disturbance was accepted in Section 23 of the Land Act of 1931, in connection with resumed holdings. Now I suggest, in connection with this Bill, that the House should consider the case of a man who is uprooted from his holding and sent elsewhere at the will of the Land Commission. I imagine there will not be many such cases. But I do not think the provision of a new holding, even if it is of equal market value, is sufficient to recoup a man for being moved from the place where he has been all his life, and in which generations of his family have lived. There are various objections to such removals. The first is the translation from the old home. That entails, first of all, the movement of his family, his goods, chattels and implements, and sometimes the removal of his stock, etc.

The practice has been in the past for free grants of amounts entirely at the will of the Land Commission and coming under the head of "removal expenses" to be given. That covered the case of the man who had to remove his family, but do not let us forget that these were all small men and that the grants have been small as well. I do not think that all the members of the House know that a member of the family of the migrant has been retained in the old holding until the new holding has been put in working order. Sometimes this occupation of the old holding and of the new holding has gone on for two years. A great deal of that is going to happen in the future—I mention it by the way now—however much the Minister speeds up migration. All the surrender agreements of the holdings have been conditional on this. The grants which have been made were satisfactory to the men to whom they were made, who were all willing migrants. In view of the proposed speeding up, I think that some type of acknowledgment of this liability should appear in the Bill, and that is why I put down this amendment.

One type of loss is not provided for under any of the powers of the Land Commission or its subsidiaries—that is, the incoming loss in the new holding. Removal very often means the purchase of a different type of stock. The migrant may have to buy his hay and corn at market prices for a certain time, instead of growing his own. He is entirely at the mercy of his neighbours. He may have as satisfactory turbary as he had before but it may be more difficult of access and he may not be able to reach it in the same time. Although I admit that the Land Commission and the Congested Districts Board always did their best to cause as little loss as possible to migrants, it is not always possible to synchronise their movement with the different operations of farming. All the matters I have mentioned are to a great extent a drain on the migrant's resources.

The question of labour is, I think, as important as any, as a definite, direct loss by reason of migration. In a congested district, labour is cheap. There is mutual assistance amongst the small holders who live close together and labour is sometimes given in return for the service of a bull. A man is removed to a ranch country. Labour is very scarce there and is, consequently, more expensive. I put down that as a very definite loss. The migrant has then to learn to work his new holding. He has got to learn the soil and this can only be learned by working it and gaining acquaintance with the conditions of the new country. I do not mind how long a man has been on the land, if he has remained in one townland all his life, he has got into a groove as regards the method of working that particular type of land. He is, no doubt, ready to take advice but he has got to adjust his ideas to the new conditions and it will be a very considerable time before he can get the best out of his new holding.

Another important point was touched upon by Senator Wilson this afternoon. That is that the man who will be compulsorily removed under this Act will, normally and usually, have purchased under earlier Acts than the 1923 Act. If he is under the 1903 Act, he has been paying 3½ per cent. He is removed to a 1923 holding, where he pays 4¾ per cent. That is a direct loss of 1¼ per cent. Because the State wants it, the old holding becomes accommodation land. By the compulsory removal of a farmer from a congested district, the State avoids all the expense of removing and housing a number of small holders. In exchange for the acquired holding, they provide one of equal face value, but not of equal value. If the holding given in exchange were to be developed by the Land Commission for the accommodation of migrants, it would entail very large expenditure of capital, whereas they take an old holding in a congested district which can be divided up amongst the neighbouring small holders at practically no cost at all or just the cost of fencing. I think that that item should, in all fairness, be added to the market value of the new holding which the man gets for his compulsory removal under this Bill. That may be for the good of the State but there is the fact. I do not know why such a man should suffer any loss. The migrants have been what I may call willing adventurers. The compensation has satisfied them and they have been prepared to suffer the other losses which I have mentioned—the incoming loss and the reduction of assets.

The situation is quite different now. In the speeding up of distribution most of the safeguards of any value are being swept away and the farmer car be compulsorily evicted from his farm and sent elsewhere. The Minister will say that sub-section (3) of Section 32 covers that. As a matter of fact, there are so many exceptions to that section that you can read it almost in any way. You can acquire land for any purpose but you shall not acquire it except for the relief of congestion. Again, you shall not acquire it except for the relief of congestion in the same locality. That seems to fine it down somewhat. Then it is not to be acquired if it is providing adequate labour and producing adequate food. That, apparently, is another safeguard but then we are told that the Land Commission must have regard to the area, to the situation, to the character of the land, the amount of congestion, to unemployment locally and generally through the country and finally, to the desirability of increasing production.

The Minister may say: "I require another ¼ per cent. tillage on every farm in the country." The land immediately comes under the Bill and it may be used not only for the relief of congestion but for all the excepted persons mentioned in another section, who include unemployed and landless men. With all these exceptions, the section may be read in any way. It is not as protective as the Minister so fluently told us in a speech just now. I think that the situation has entirely changed, and that "market value" does not compensate for this arbitrary disturbance in the course of speeding up. The incoming man into the old holding gets everything. He is at a definite advantage. The amendment which I put down is framed not to give a similar advantage to the man who is going into the new holding but to ensure that he will be at no loss.

It may be argued by the Minister that this is more than the State can afford. I think it is the same as in the case of arrears. Men who initiate reforms must count on the cost and must see that justice is done to all. As I stated on the Second Reading, some other means should be examined by which congestion could be catered for instead of relying so much on moving people. Some means should be examined which will not damage one citizen for the benefit of others, simply because the State is trying to do the thing on the cheap, or will not bear a proportion of the cost of what it has initiated. That is my case as regards compensation for removal. In this debate, as I predicted, I found the Minister extremely reasonable about most things that we suggested. He has evidently left a very considerable margin, and I trust this amendment will be included in it.

Mr. Aiken

Senator The McGillycuddy of the Reeks' bill of costs for removal sounded like a lawyer's bill of costs, and, as far as I can see, it was so well stuffed that we will have to get someone else to tax them. The people that we propose should do so are the Land Commissioners. The Land Commission have already power under Section 48 of the Land Act of 1931 to grant such sums for or towards the expense of transferring migrants to new homes as the Land Commission may think fit. I was not quite sure what the Senator had in mind when he put down the amendment. I thought what was operating mostly with him was the actual removal expenses. If that is so, certainly, under the present scheme of administration, the removed person would be better off than he would be under the amendment. If the Land Commission compelled a removed person to supply them with a detailed vouched bill of costs that person would have got much less for removal than he got.

The McGillycuddy

I think I admitted that the actual cost of removal from the old holding was already provided for.

Mr. Aiken

That case was provided for, and was provided for much more liberally than would be the case if the removed person had to submit a vouched bill of costs. I asked the Land Commissioners to give me some idea of the amounts they gave. They gave lump sums of £50 or £100 or £150 in respect of removal expenses. That is part of the offer made and the man can transfer in his own way and in his own time. If that person had to produce vouchers for train fares, cattle fares and for his costs of removal perhaps he would get less money after all the trouble. Then the actual cost could only be ascertained after the exchange was completed. Where it is done without an estimate of what the cost will be, the Land Commission will give what they consider will be a fair lump sum to cover the cost of removal. If any of the men who were moved were consulted I think it would be found that they had been dealt with pretty liberally.

If the Minister will consider the points I made in regard to losses outside the actual losses of transfer and removal I will not press the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Counihan

I move the adjournment of the House until 3 o'clock to-morrow.

Mr. Parkinson

I beg to second.

Cathaoirleach

I think it would be better if we sit until 10.30.

Mr. Garahan

I beg to move amendment 27:—

Section 29. To add at the end of the section a new sub-section as follows:—

Sub-section (4) of Section 29.

Cathaoirleach

The Senator is quite right then. Perhaps the Minister will answer the question.

Mr. Aiken

Sub-section (5) of the Land Act of 1923 reads:—

(5) The Land Commission shall not without the consent of the owner acquire land from him under the powers conferred on them by sub-section (3) of this section so long as there is other unacquired land in the same locality suitable for relieving congestion which does not come within the exceptions mentioned in sub-section (2) of this section and which the Land Commission can acquire without exercising the special powers given by the said sub-section.

It was found in operation that owners of land appealed against the acquisition on the ground that there was other unacquired land in the same locality. In a great number of cases that held up the acquisition of lands which were really suitable for the relief of congestion, and that is the reason it is being repealed.

Mr. Milroy

That is most unsatisfactory.

Section 29, as amended, agreed to. Sections 30 and 31 agreed.

SECTION 32

(3) Notwithstanding anything contained in this section or in any other enactment, the Land Commission shall not acquire compulsorily for any purpose other than the relief of congestion in the same locality or the provision of sports fields, parks, pleasure-grounds, or play-grounds, for the inhabitants of villages, towns, or cities or for schools, or the provision of gardens for schools any land in respect of which the lay commissioners are satisfied that, having regard to the area, situation, and character of such land, the amount of congestion and unemployment existing in the district in which such land is situate and the country generally, and the desirability of increasing the production of food supplies, such land is producing an adequate amount of agricultural products and is providing an adequate amount of employment, reckoning in such employment any children of the tenant or proprietor of such land permanently employed on such land.

Mr. Linehan

I move amendment 28:—

Section 32, sub-section (3). After the word "land" in line 64 to insert the words "and the farm buildings thereon."

This amendment asks that the Land Commission in considering the acquisition of land should have regard to this in addition to the other matters mentioned in the section. In the case of a holding having a large number of farm buildings it would be uneconomic to leave such a holding without land proportionate to the buildings thereon. The amendment asks that the Land Commission should have regard to the buildings on the holding when deciding to take portion of a farm compulsorily. The amendment merely asks the Land Commission to see what buildings there are on the land and does not compel them to desist from taking the land on account of that. It merely asks that this should be one of the matters they would consider. I see no harm in the section if the Minister accepts the amendment.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again to-morrow.

The Seanad adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, August 24th.

Seanad Éireann debate - Wednesday, 23 Aug 1933