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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Dec 1933

Vol. 17 No. 26

Horse Breeding Bill, 1933—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Horse Breeding Bill, 1933, be read a Second Time."

Our present powers in regard to horse breeding are derived from the 1918 Act which was brought into operation in this country on the 1st January, 1920. Under this Act which we at present operate it is not an offence to keep an entire horse, but it is an offence to use that entire horse as a stallion for the service of mares, unless the entire horse is licensed. There are exceptions there. A stallion used by the owner for the service of his own mares is exempt, as is also a stallion registered in a stud book and used for the service of mares registered in a prescribed stud book, or other mares approved by the Department of Agriculture. These two classes are exempt. Apart from these two exceptions an entire horse used for the service of mares must be licensed.

The weakness of the present law is this—that a person may keep a stallion and claim that he is not using the stallion for service. We cannot bring a case against him unless we have proof that he is using the stallion for service. It is very difficult at present to bring such a case because the man is using the stallion for the service of the mares of his neighbours and friends and it is almost impossible to imagine that these would inform on him or give evidence against him so that we have really no way at present of dealing with these stallions that are unlicensed. A great number of them are unsound and unsuitable and they are doing a great deal of damage to the horse breeding industry in the country. The Department of Agriculture for some years past has spent a considerable amount of money on nominated mares, on the supply of good stallions to the country at half price and in giving loans to people to keep good stallions. In many other ways the Department has spent a great deal of money on the improvement of horse breeding in the country.

All that has been frustrated to a great extent by these unlicensed stallions. The present powers are ineffective and we are seeking in this Bill powers somewhat the same as we have over bulls and boars under the Livestock Breeding Act to prescribe that stallions cannot be kept unless they are licensed—with certain exceptions. There are exceptions. Where a stallion is registered as a thoroughbred, where he is used exclusively for the service of mares on the stud books he would be exempt. The reason for that is that there have been cases where stallions were used which had great records as racers and where their progeny were proved to have been so used. Still those stallions would not be passed by a veterinary surgeon. It would be anomalous under this Bill if we had to order to be castrated these very good stallions that were well known to be very valuable to the country. These are stallions from which we got very good stock. It would be a pity if we were compelled under the Bill to have such animals castrated. That is why they are exempt. It is also felt that stallions used exclusively for racing should be exempt. These two classes are exempt under the present Bill.

There is a provision in Section 15 for a system of permits. Where the owner of a thoroughbred stallion registered in the stud book would prefer to apply for a permit or exemption, it is open to him to do so under this Bill. Apart from that however, it will be an offence to keep an entire horse unless the horse is licensed.

The usual provisions follow in this Bill somewhat the same as we had under the Livestock Breeding Act. Application must be made before the prescribed date. The prescribed date is 31st December. If a person is forgetful or negligent and applies after the prescribed date there will be an increased fee because it is a very costly thing to send a special inspector out to examine a stallion where a late application has been made and we have prescribed here that an additional fee will be charged in such cases, from £5. It may be less. The amount however will be prescribed.

Another power which we are taking in this Bill is the limit of the area over which the stallion can be used. The reason why I mention this matter is because it was raised in the Dáil. Deputies wanted to know why this provision was put in. It is because we find in the Department of Agriculture that there are certain areas where it is necessary to license a stallion of not so high a standard as would be licensed in other parts of the country. In the poorer districts where mares are few and the fee is small we may get a person to keep a stallion that would not be altogether up to the standard. There it would be necessary, perhaps, to have that stallion for that particular district. If it were permissible for the owner of the stallion to use the stallion once licensed in any part of the State afterwards it would be possible for an owner to keep an inferior type of stallion that had been registered in a particular area. Afterwards that stallion could be got into an area where he would not be up to the standard required by the Department. We have power under the Bill to deal with those cases. That power would only be used in such cases as I have mentioned where a stallion below the standard would be licensed.

Where the usual notice is served to have a stallion inspected for licence, and where the licence is refused, the person is notified to have the stallion castrated. That is much the same as in case under the Livestock Breeding Acts. If the person takes no action we can under the Bill inflict the penalty. We may eventually prevent the keeping of such an animal up to the point of compulsory castration, and powers are taken in this Bill to have stallions castrated at the expense of the owners.

Under this Bill there is also a panel of referees. We find the same provisions in the Livestock Breeding Acts where we have a panel of referees, and the same provision was made in the 1918 Horse Breeding Act. We are continuing that panel. We are only making this change: Under the 1918 Act, when once we put a man on a panel he remained there as a life member. As a result the panel often became very large, because in some cases when a man got old and unfit for the work new men had to be put on, and the old members still remained on, though unfit for work. The old members in some cases became useless. For that reason we are proposing in future to have a panel only for three years. At the end of the three years the men who were not prepared to act are removed from the panel.

In Section 3 I see that: "This Act applies to every stallion which is for the time being of or over the prescribed age and is not for the time being an exempted stallion." The word "prescribed" in the Bill means "prescribed by regulations made by the Minister under this Act." I would like to know whether on the construction of this particular section which I have read, it is open to the Minister to fix, at his discretion, by regulation any particular age, or what is the prescribed age at the present time?

The prescribed age will of course be decided by the Minister. I might add that it is intended under this Bill as in the case of the other Bills to have a consultative council representative of the various interests in the horse breeding industry. The prescribed age has always been up to the present two years old, and it will probably be the same under this Bill.

But it will be liable to be varied?

Yes, by regulation.

I take it that we are all in favour of the main object of this Bill. It seems to be as necessary in the case of the ordinary stallion as the Act which we passed some time ago with reference to bulls. But, in the debates in the Dáil, a very serious question was raised as to the exclusion from the Bill of bloodstock. I read the debates in the Dáil very carefully. The Minister himself seemed to be as anxious as anybody else that bloodstock should be excluded, as far as was reasonably possible. He suggested that an amendment should be introduced at a later stage of the Bill, having expressed his sympathy in favour of bloodstock being excluded on the Second Reading. As a matter of fact, an amendment was introduced and passed on the Report Stage of the Bill in the Dáil. It takes the form which Senators will find in sub-section (1) (a) of Section 4, and is as follows:—

(1) The owner of any stallion, which is entered in a prescribed stud book and which—

(a) is used for the service of no mares other than mares entered in the stud book in which such stallion is entered, or

(b) is of or over the prescribed age and is used exclusively for racing.

It is with reference to paragraph (a) that I wish to point out that it does not go far enough. I am not speaking for myself in this matter. Personally, I know very little about the breeding of bloodstock, and I am very sorry that Senator Parkinson is not able to be here to-day. He is unavoidably absent, but he will be here for the Committee Stage of the Bill. I need scarcely say that he is an expert, probably the very best expert in this country, on this subject. At any rate he is an expert for whom we, in this House, must have the very greatest respect, and what I am saying on the subject is really based on information which I have received from him. Senator Parkinson informs me that, instead of confining the exclusion from the licensing provisions in the Bill of any stallion in a prescribed stud book and only used for mares entered in that particular stud book, it should be made very much wider: that it should be made to include all stallions entered in any stud book recognised in any country where racing takes place and used for mares entered in any such stud book. The reason for that is this: that a great many bloodstock mares entered, say, in any foreign stud book come over to this country because of its magnificient soil for the purpose of bringing up young horses, and also because of the extremely careful and expert manner in which the business of bloodstock breeding is carried on here. These mares come over here. They are entered, some of them, in the British stud book, some in the French stud book—and I may say that very many French mares come over to this country —and more of them are entered in American and in Austrian stud books. This should not be confined merely to "a prescribed stud book," and I do not think it should be left even to the Minister to prescribe what stud books the stallions and the mares are to be entered in. They are all recognised stud books and can be absolutely depended on. The amendment which Senator Parkinson suggests should be made in the Bill is to insert, instead of sub-section (1) (a) of Section 4 the following: "all stallions entered in any stud book recognised in any country where racing takes place and used for mares entered in any such stud books." That is to say, the mare need not be entered in the same stud book as the stallion. That is a very important matter, and one which I think the Minister will see the force of.

The only other matter which seems to require some consideration on the Committee Stage is the exclusion from the operation of the Act of two-year-old colts. There was also a very long and interesting debate on this matter in the Dáil. After the best consideration that I could give the matter it struck me that the very best thing would be to exclude bloodstock altogether from the provisions of this Bill. However, I do not suppose the Minister would be willing to go as far as that, but I would recommend to his most favourable consideration the matter with reference to the stud book to which I have called attention.

I am very glad that Senator Brown has made the statement to which we have just listened. I entirely agree with what he said. I had thought of saying the same thing myself. The Minister, no doubt, was led into bringing in this Horse Breeding Bill because some years ago a somewhat similar Bill was brought in in connection with cattle breeding, and he probably thought, just on the face of it, that what was suitable for cattle would be suitable for horses. But, as a matter of fact, the two things are very different. I am not against this Bill in its general lines, because for years I advocated a similar measure for cattle. If it were not for the way in which it deals with bloodstock I would entirely agree with what the Bill proposes. The question of bloodstock—putting it under the control of the Department— was the one that was principally dealt with in the Dáil. The Minister tried in various ways to accommodate himself to the ideas put forward there, but he admitted that the technical difficulties, of keeping some out and letting others in, would be hard to overcome. Finally, I suppose as a result of the discussions that took place, this particular clause was inserted. In my opinion it would have been much simpler and better if the Minister had excluded bloodstock altogether. Any animal entered in a general stud book in this or other countries should be excluded. I am dealing now with thoroughbred bloodstock and not with hunter bloodstock. The difficulty about this matter is that one does not know who is to decide whether an animal should be allowed in for breeding purposes or not. I am personally very much against officials undertaking this sort of work unless it can be said that other methods have failed. If they have actually failed over a long period of time, then there is certainly a very good reason for putting the matter under some control. But in this case exactly the opposite is the fact, because the bloodstock in this country is better than that in any other country in the world. Everybody comes here for our bloodstock, not only for racing stock but for our hunter stock. Therefore I can see no reason for putting this matter of our bloodstock under the control of officials when it has been so successful hitherto. But the question really is, who is to decide? We will suppose that some very competent official is told off for this purpose. He goes around and he looks at certain horses. He is probably a very competent and decent person and wants to do the best that he can, but how is he going to know, because there is no means of knowing? Nobody in the world has yet found any means of knowing. If anybody could find out, with any certainty, the proper horses to breed from he would win all the races in the world.

Everybody has tried, and no one has been able to find out the reason why one horse should be better than another with the exception of those with experience on race courses in the case of half-bred stock. Outside that they can only make a guess, and not a very certain guess, as to what is good or not. Therefore, if you send people out to judge a matter of that kind you will find they cannot do it. I saw a very well-bred horse standing at Mullingar. I went there to see him and what did I find? I saw him with his fetlocks quite bent over. He was struggling across the stable on his pasterns. But he bred many winners, however. He was not a horse for hunters; but he would be stopped and put aside if some official went down and disqualified. I am not talking now of one individual horse. If I went to the stud book I would find dozens of cases of horses that would not be expected to win races but did win races. Perhaps I might go so far as to quote an instance, not of the class of horse I found in Mullingar, but a horse of the very highest strain of blood to be found in the stud book and whose progeny for the last hundred years has been at the top of the list and is now, with one or two others at the head. It will be interesting to some people if I give this instance. The name of the horse was Stockwell—the emperor of stallions. His stock prevailed in the country for the last hundred years and is now, at the present moment, at the head of everything. Look how he was bred. Stockwell was not a very good looking horse himself. He was big, clumsy and a bad mover but he won the St. Leger. He was by Baron, and Baron was a horse described by the people of that time as having an ugly Roman head—a gloomy Roman head. But he won the St. Leger all the same. Stockwell's dam was Red Roarer—a most confirmed roarer and a very bad horse on a racecourse, not like Stockwell at all. However, in spite of these disadvantages, Stockwell won the Leger and the Two Thousand Guineas. That was not a chance case. Going back another step, the Baron's dam was Echidna. She was described as a fiddle-headed animal. Of course I do not mean she had a fiddle head or that she had a Roman nose but any official would disqualify it. However, I am only showing that it is not possible to judge a thoroughbred horse simply by the effect of appearance. To go back one more step in that particular family we find that the sire of Baron was Irish Bird Catcher. Irish Bird Catcher's dam was Wicherley, described as a wretched horse that would never breed a hunter for anybody. She was offered on the turf for £30 but no one would buy her. She was the dam of Baron and the grand dam of Stockwell. So here we have a whole lot of bad mares and they have established a record for the finest family in the whole stud book. I have not examined this year's list. If you go back a few years you will find, in fact, no horse in the stud book that has not Stockwell's blood. Now you propose to send down the country an official—some veterinary surgeon or other—and he is to decide whether a certain horse is to succeed at the stud or not.

The object of the Bill is to protect half-bred horses—sometimes more than half-bred—against the incursion of bad, diseased blood. You are to protect them against stallions either inferior or with certain diseases. That is a very reasonable proposition. I was bred in the country, I may say in a racing stable, and, therefore, I have some knowledge of the subject. I know that throughout the country there have been small studs. Thoroughbred horses would be brought down for mares, but as these small studs have only five or six thoroughbred mares, they were not sufficient, and the sires would be used for half-bred mares in the country. What was the result of that? The result was that, from these country places and small studs have come the best horses in the world. I remember a horse brought up in one of these studs, it was sent over to England, won the Stewards' Cup at Goodwood, against 45 starters, the biggest number ever seen. That horse was brought up in a small country place in the West of Ireland.

It was the same way with hunters. Hunters bred in this country for the last half century have been bred from these stallions at these small country studs and used all round the neighbourhood where they are sometimes led along from place to place. Now we are going to bring all this under the control of the officials in Dublin. The Minister pledges himself, no doubt, that no wrong will be done in any of these cases, but it is very unwise for any Minister to promise a thing of that sort, because he does not see it himself. He could not possibly see it. Some official may go out and stop the breeding of horses such as those I have mentioned, and the Minister cannot possibly see it. I think the Minister would act in a much better and wiser way if he would exclude thoroughbred horses.

Going back to the question of appearance, a good many years ago the German Government wished to establish a national stud. They sent people over to England and Ireland and they bought at lavish expense all the best horses they could find and took them over to Germany and set up a national stud there. Not having as many racehorses as we had, they judged by the appearance of these horses, to a great extent, but it was very soon found that appearance was no use whatsoever when it came to the breeding of horses and the stud became useless and had to be broken up. There is only one test for a racehorse and that is whether he wins races or does not. The horses that do not win races are no use no matter what their appearance is. Those who do win races may be good to look at or they may not. In the same way, a horse may look to be the finest horse in the world and turn out to be useless in the stud. I remember the case of one horse that won the Derby a good many years ago and he was absolutely useless in the stud. Horses are thrown out every year because they are no use and because they do not breed good racehorses or good hunters. What the Germans did is just what the Minister is trying to do now and there is a danger that he will find himself in the position of having good horses thrown out by men who, on the face of things, cannot give a fair decision. I remember that a few years ago there was a certain gentleman—I think he was a Mr. Webb—who was at the head of the Congested Districts Board, I think, and who got it into his head that a certain class of horse would be the salvation of the West. He insisted, against the advice of racehorse owners and other people, on bringing that class of horse down. Everybody that had anything to do with the training of horses spoke against it, but when a man is determined on a thing he will do it no matter what anybody says. As far as anyone could see, the only qualification of this horse was that when he was trotting he nearly hit his nose with his knees. It was interesting to see him trotting around Ballsbridge. He went about as fast as a donkey would walk but he certainly could raise his hoofs high. I do not know what has become of that class of horse, but we never see them now.

My advice to the Minister is to make a simple rule and take out the whole question of the thoroughbred horse from this. He can do that quite easily if he takes out sub-sections (a) and (b) from Section 4. I have no further objection to the Bill except this. There may be other things depending on this which would have to be changed also, but if the Minister does what I suggest it will settle that.

I think that Senator Brown has made a very good case for an amendment of Section 4 so as to provide that there shall be exemption in the case of a stallion which is used for the service of no mares other than mares entered in a stud book. I think a very good case has been made by the Senator. In addition to what he has suggested I would urge on the Minister this further consideration, that, so far as my experience goes, a mixture of the blood is an advantage. That is another consideration I would submit to the Minister. It is with great trepidation, of course, that I venture to differ from Senator Colonel Moore in anything relating to the horse, but I do not think it would be wise to introduce this sweeping amendment which he suggests. It is all very well to exempt thoroughbreds mated with thoroughbreds, but when you come to consider the question of mating a thoroughbred with a farmer's mare in order to get a hunter there are matters to be considered other than the swiftness of the sire. The main question to consider in that case, I think, is the soundness of the animal. Before thoroughbred sires can be used indiscriminately for being mated with farmers' mares so as to produce saleable stock I think it is essential for the protection of the farmers that the sire should be sound in wind and limb. I believe that is the objection to the argument put forward by Senator Colonel Moore and I am sure that it is probably the reason why the Minister has made the distinction between the two classes.

I wish to support Senator Colonel Moore. I listened with great interest to his most interesting speech not altogether because of my own experience in horse-breeding, although I have had a certain amount of experience, but because I have consulted with a great many noted horse-breeders in my own county, and they are afraid that official meddling may interfere with the horse-breeding industry and take it out of the hands of the experts who, in the past, have bred horses which, as Senator Colonel Moore has said, cannot be beaten anywhere and cannot be improved upon. The horse that will suit one district may be quite unsuitable in another. I know of one horse in Wexford, which was unsuitable in a midland county and got rid of, from which the finest horses that ever crossed a ditch in Wexford have been bred. The type of horse in Wexford is the weight-carrying hunter, and I defy any Minister or any "vet" to improve the breed of horses in that district. This question of horse-breeding has grown up throughout centuries and not merely for the last couple of hundred years. The horses in this country have been famous for centuries. We know that from the ancient records. It may not be very much use to look back on these records now, but it is interesting to see from them how horse-breeding stood many centuries ago in this country. These records show that several things go to the making of the matchless horses we produce in this country—horses which all the world combined has failed to beat.

There is first of all the soil of Ireland. The limestone soil makes bone which cannot be produced anywhere else. There is also the quality of the old Irish mare. I would be very glad if, in any Horse Breeding Bill, an effort was made to preserve the old Irish breed. Then there is the Irishman's sporting instinct which makes him an expert. The feeling amongst Irish breeders I met is— if I may put it this way— that this is a Medicine Bill, an interference with a business which can scarcely be improved upon. The horses in Wexford at present are practically all the progeny of great racehorses and Derby winners which have made a great name for that county. The types which my part of the country requires are weight-carrying hunters. I can foresee types of horses being sent to Wexford by some veterinary inspector who does not understand that they will be quite unsuitable there. I agree that bloodstock should be exempted from the Bill. I remember very well the "hackneys" which have been referred to and which ruined the old breed in the west. That was an example for us. The "hackneys" cross of these and the Connemara ponies were ridiculous looking animals, and might be described as freaks. They went far towards ruining the breed of horses in the district. Many famous horses have been bred in Wexford including Napoleon's charger, Marengo. That horse was bred in Wexford and was the property of a French officer. When Napoleon set eyes on him he never rode any other horse. A study of the Irish horse is exceedingly interesting from the historical point of view. Art Mac Murrough's horse was bred in my county. A French chronicler of King Richard's Army gives a very interesting description of the meeting with the Duke of Gloucester in 1399:

"Between two woods, at some distance from the sea, I beheld MacMoré and a body of the Irish, more than I can number, descend the mountain. He had a horse without housing or saddle, which was so fine and good that it had cost him, they said, 400 cows; for there is little money in the country, wherefore their usual traffic is in cattle. In coming down it galloped so hard that in my opinion I never saw hare, deer, sheep or any other animal, I declare to you, for a certainty, run with such speed as it did."

That is a description of the horse ridden by Art Murrough in 1399. Coming down the centuries we had Marengo, Napoleon's charger. Evidence can be found of the wonderful superiority of the horses bred in my own part of the country. A writer in the "Sporting Review" of 1839 said apropos of Harkaway:—

"By the way, odd as it may seem, there is a nationality of shape about that extraordinary animal that cannot but strike anyone used to the anatomy of the Irish horse; I think I could have named the country of his birth, had I met him in Constantinople."

All these interesting references to the Irish horse proved that the knowledge which makes the expert has come down to us; that it is hereditary. A Bill like this is totally different to one dealing with cattle breeding. There is no comparison. The experts in my part of the country are rather disturbed by this Bill, believing that it may do serious harm. They believe that as this business was carried on successfully in the past, there should be no meddling with it. Racing experts may have a different opinion, but we do not breed horses for racing in Wexford. The horses required there are heavy weight-carrying hunters, at which we can beat the world. A thoroughbred horse that would be successful in Kildare might be absolutely unsuitable in Wexford. I do not want to oppose the Bill, seeing that it has been approved of by people who know vastly more than I do about this question. But the people I spoke to expressed other views to me and they have been breeding horses for generations. I am expressing the views of those I spoke to in my own part of the country, and I think it is only right to put forward those views.

I desire to endorse the remarks of Senator Miss Browne and Senator Colonel Moore, and to suggest that if possible bloodstock should be exempted from the Bill. In case that is not possible, Section 6 is one that requires particular attention, because under it the sale of any racehorse is made more difficult. It is an annoying stipulation, it serves no purpose, and simply imposes trouble, and possibly cost on a big industry, which has its own peculiar difficulties, not the least of which is the Government's policy. It must be borne in mind that Irish racehorses in all branches have a worldwide reputation. The biggest market is in England. The Irish bloodstock industry is now subject to attacks beyond its capacity to bear. This is not the time to come along with a further disability and to create more difficulties for this industry. References have been made to the quality of Irish bloodstock. It has achieved that reputation without any help from any Government. Now the Government is going to interfere with a successful industry, or rather with what was a successful industry. There is one advice to be given the Government, and that is: "Hands off the Irish bloodstock industry."

This Bill seems to me to be like a repetition of the old story, locking the stable door when the steed is stolen. We have it on the authority of the President himself that the English market is gone. With the horse trade the English market was the best market we had. Comparing the number of mares that came from England with the number that came from France or from other countries the difference is marked. Everyone knows that many more mares came from England than from any other country. Considering the difficulties in getting mares or stallions across to the other side of the Channel, certainly they would want to be very good steeplechasers to be able to jump the tariff walls.

That is only one side of the horse question. Take the big carriers in the City of Dublin. Take Guinness's brewery. The horse I admire most of all in Dublin is what, for want of a better name, I shall call the Guinness Clydesdale. It is a noble-looking animal, and the click of the shoes of Guinness's horses on the streets of Dublin brings joy to the heart of every Dubliner especially when that click resounds off a Parnell whinstone sett, but the Guinness Clydesdale and the whinstone setts are fast disappearing from our streets. To-day, we must have our streets French polished and consequently, the horse must go and the motor car takes its place. Take, then, the case of the farmers of the country who always had what I shall call, again for want of a better name, the old Irish draught horse. It is just as well to realise that people who breed horses have an awful lot of horse sense. They know exactly what they want. If a man who had an Irish draught animal wanted a foal similar to the mare he had, he brought it to a particular stallion and if he wanted a hunter, he brought it to a thoroughbred. Then, go right across the country from Dublin to Clifden and you find the Connemara ponies. Within the past 20 years, the people of Connemara, without any Government assistance or Government interference, have succeeded in improving wonderfully the Connemara pony. They have done that without inspectors and without Government interference, but now, when we have no export trade for horses, we come along and introduce a Horse Breeding Bill. I cannot help thinking of what Dean Swift said about the Government of his day:

"Behold the proof of Irish sense,

Her Irish wit is seen

When nothing's left that's worth defence

They build a magazine."

I agree that Section 4 can be amended to great advantage if it should be decided that a thoroughbred is not to be excluded from the operations of this Bill. I also agree that the breeding of thoroughbreds should be excluded. The best knowledge and the most expert knowledge and the greatest perseverance have, for long over a century, been devoted to the breeding of the thoroughbreds of this country. That is all I shall say about the advisability of excluding the thoroughbred. He stands out in the world to-day as one of the best that can be produced, and I think it would be a pity to take the risk of interfering with the method by which our thoroughbred stock has been produced.

With regard to Section 4 and the provisions to the effect that a sire will be eligible for exemption provided he belongs to a certain stud book and is not mated with any mare except those entered in that stud book, I quite agree that it would be necessary to have that amended. Mares come over here from foreign countries and I think they should be encouraged rather than discouraged in that respect because the introduction of foreign blood into the bloodstock is a very useful adjunct to horse breeding here. Still more so, perhaps, is it necessary for occasionally getting a thoroughbred from countries other than this, and we have a notable instance in the case of Roi Herode, the French horse that came over here 20 or 30 years ago, and was one of the greatest successes we had in this country. That is known to most people who take an interest in horse breeding. If that animal came over here at present and this Bill, as it is now drafted, were passed, he would not be eligible for exemption if he were mated with the mares of this country. He would not be eligible for exemption being entered in a French stud book unless some French mares came over with him. It would be, I think, a great loss to horse breeding if foreign stock were to be prevented from coming in here. This point should be carefully considered by the Minister and some improvement made in this regard.

There is the other matter that the section merely mentions a stud book. The plain draught-horse has a stud book of his own, and there are different types of horses for different stud books. It would be well to specify the bloodstock stud book, otherwise one might mix up the question of stud books still further. There is a draught stud book and a thoroughbred stud book, and it would be better to avoid any confusion, and I suggest that the particular stud book should be specified more definitely than in the Bill at present.

Might I mention a matter which might interest the Seanad? As proof of the value put on Irish-bred horses by foreign countries, in 1931 twenty-three different countries imported Irish horses, including India and South Africa.

I might add that when I was in South Africa I was entrusted by several people, when coming home, to buy up any racehorses I liked here and to send them over to South Africa. I did not do so because buying racehorses for anybody else is a big job and I should probably have got myself into great trouble by picking out some nice-looking horses, not one of which would have won a race, and then I should have come in for it.

I am interested in the observations that have just been made by Senator Brown and Senator Colonel Moore. I meant to say something on that line in reply to Senator Staines, who said that the British market was our only market for horses. He is not here now, so I need not go into it further. I did not think that this debate was going to range over such a wide field. We went back to 1399, into the present and into the future. Senator Miss Browne spoke about Napoleon's horse, but Senator Comyn assures me that Napoleon's horse was a mare and not a horse. I want to correct Senator Miss Browne in that. The big objection that has been raised to the Bill is that we do not give sufficient protection to owners of bloodstock. There are three classes of horses really to be dealt with: firstly, bloodstock horses that are used for the service of bloodstock mares only; secondly, thoroughbred horses such as were referred to by Senator Colonel Moore, used for the service of other mares from which hunters are bred; and thirdly, the type of horses we are trying to get at under this Bill, horses used by the farmer. It is most peculiar that in a House like this there is not a single voice raised on behalf of the farmer who wants to get a certain type of horse. Every single Senator talked as a bloodstock owner or talked for what I regarded as the aristocracy of the breeders. Even Senators who represent farmers in this House did not raise a single protest about getting at the farmer's horse. They did not care if we wiped him out completely.

That is rather an exaggeration because the farmers' horses are got from thoroughbred horses and therefore, in pressing for protection for these horses, we ask for protection for the horses in which the farmers are interested.

I wanted to preserve the status quo in regard to bloodstock horses. I did want to get at what was referred to as scrub horses in the country, whether they were kept by farmers or by tinkers and that is what the Bill is for. We want to exempt, if possible, bloodstock horses, and when my Department put up this Bill, in the first instance, and I was asked to exempt bloodstock horses I said “What will that mean?” I was told that they would have to apply for exemption. I asked was it not much easier to apply for a licence or a permit. There was then a permit provision put into the Bill which provided that these permits would cost them 5/- and that they would have to apply for such permits. A man who owns recehorses will not miss 5/-. All he will have to do is to fill a form each year, and I am assured by people who go in for racing that they have to fill on an average five or six forms for every race for which a horse is entered. They will have to fill only one form to get a permit. The Bill came into the Dáil in that form, that is, on the understanding that the owner of a bloodstock stallion could be exempt from the Act by applying for a permit and paying 5/-. I was then attacked in the Dáil in regard to the Bill and I said “I am quite prepared to do what was done in the 1918 Bill.” I then asked the draftsman to draft an amendment giving them the same exemption as they had in the 1918 Bill. What exemption had they under the 1918 Bill? The Act says that stallions of this class shall be exempt, “A stallion entered in any prescribed stud book if used for the service of mares so entered or mares approved by the Department.” That is a bit wider than what is in the Bill—“A stallion entered in a prescribed stud book if used for the service of mares so entered.”

What stud book was prescribed since 1918? The general stud book prescribed by Messrs. Wetherby. Only Wetherby's was prescribed. That is horses entered as thoroughbred stallions in Wetherby's for the service of mares entered in Wetherby's were exempt. We brought in an amendment in the Dáil for exactly the same purpose. It has the same effect, if our prescribed regulations remain the same because we have Wetherby's in mind. We mean to carry on in the same way as for the last ten years. Any stallion entered in Wetherby's and used exclusively for the service of mares entered in Wetherby's would be exempt. I am quite prepared to put into the Bill the very same clause as appeared in the 1918 Act. I am prepared to change the paragraph in Section 4, so that it would read "entered in any prescribed stud book if used for the service of mares so entered or mares approved by the Minister." That would be the very same wording as in the 1918 Act. Why I should be asked to go further I do not know because I have not heard any complaint from bloodstock owners that they were put to any trouble for the last ten years. These stallions were exempt when used for the service of mares entered in Wetherby's. One would imagine from the tenor of Senators' speeches that we are interfering with the bloodstock trade. We are not interfering with the trade. We are making absolutely no change for racehorses. We are leaving the conditions exactly as they were. I am prepared to put in the same words as in the 1918 Act because, as far as I am concerned, the regulations will be the same, as I am advised by the officials of the Department that the regulations have been sound. As I have already mentioned, we shall have a consultative council under the Bill of people representative of the horse breeding industry. If they put up a very strong plea for any change in the regulations we may consider changing them but until that is done they will have to remain as they are.

Then we come to the type of horse mentioned in particular by Senator Colonel Moore and by Senator Miss Browne—thoroughbred horses that are used in the country, in the first instance brought down to a small stud in the country and used for the service of the owner's five or six thoroughbred mares, and also used for the service of farmers' mares in the district for the breeding of half-bred horses, hunters and so on. The same type of horse in Wexford was referred to by Senator Miss Browne. Every one of these horses has to be licensed. They have to be licensed under this Bill also, under the very same conditions. They could not be used for the service of these mares for the last ten years except they were licensed. We are making no change in that respect. Senator Miss Browne spoke about a well-known stallion in Wexford. She would give the impression, I think, that under the new Bill things are going to be interfered with, and she said that the people with whom she discussed the Bill said that it was needless meddling. She mentioned the case of "Brighter London.""Brighter London" and many other good horses were placed there by the Department. It was the Department's officials placed them there. We have in the Department at our disposal some very good judges of horses. They have put the best horses that can be got at the disposal of the people. These are the officials that are going to carry out the Bill, so we need have no fears of the officials of the Department when they can pick such horses as "Brighter London." Of course, I may say that all these horses are licensed. They are licensed for the last ten years. One would get the impression from speeches made by some Senators that we are coming in now to interfere with these horses. These horses were all licensed under the 1918 Act. They have to be licensed. We are making no change in that system.

Senator Staines spoke about the joy that it brings to his heart to see Messrs. Guinness's horses. There will be no more joy brought to the Senator's heart, because Messrs. Guinness now have no horses. He will have to go back on his imagination to get joy in them. When he says that the farmer knows what he wants, I am reminded that I have often used that argument myself. The farmer knew what he wanted before the Livestock Breeding Bill was introduced. Many farmers knew the difference between a good bull and a bad bull, yet it was necessary to interfere and to do away with some of the bad bulls. It is necessary now to interfere in much the same way to do away with the bad horses. We know very well in the Department that there are horses used for service which are unsound and unfit. They are being used for service in circumstances in which we cannot bring any charge against the owner. Senator Staines gave the Connemara pony as an example of what the people could do without the Department. The Dáil votes money every year to the Connemara Society and the Department sends down inspectors every year to help the society to improve the Connemara pony. If, therefore, the Connemara pony revival has been as successful as the Senator maintains, I say again that we have very good inspectors in the Department, that they have done their work well. Senator Garahan spoke of the difficulty supposing "Roi Herode" came across. "Roi Herode" may possibly be in Wetherby's. If he is, he is entitled under the old Act and under this Bill to serve mares entered in Wetherby's.

He was imported.

If he was not in Wetherby's he could not come in here without a licence. That was the position for the last ten years, and we are going to maintain that position under this Bill. If he is not in Wetherby's he cannot come in here without a licence. If he is in Wetherby's, he can come in here and be exempt. We will have the very same position with regard to "Roi Herode" and any other horse. The position is this: bloodstock stallions entered in the stud book are exactly in the same position as for the last ten years. There is no change whatever, as the Bill stands. I am prepared, however, to bring in the same wording as in the 1918 Act. I have an amendment ready to introduce on the Committee Stage to satisfy owners that we are not trying to put anything across them in that matter. Horses used for racing and in training for racing will be, I think, in a better position under this Bill than they were. They were exempt under the other Act, because naturally the owners claimed that they were not using them for service. They are also exempt under this Bill. Thoroughbred stallions used for the service of other mares, that is half-bred and common mares in the country, will have to be licensed under the Bill. They had to be licensed for the last ten years. They could not be exempted under the 1918 Act. They are in the same position. The only difference is that we are trying to exclude and get rid of the unsound and unfit stallions in the country that are being used illegally at present. That is the only class that we want to get at. I can assure the Seanad that the Bill is brought in for no other purpose than to get at that class, and no objection has been raised in the Seanad to getting rid of that class of stallion.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 13th December, 1933.
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