I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time." A Chathaoirligh, in April last the Seanad put in an amendment to the annual Army Bill limiting its operation until the 31st July of this year. Senator Blythe's plea on that occasion was for the introduction of an amending Bill to the present Army Act. I informed the House then that the Department of Defence was preparing that Bill. The Bill has left the Department of Defence but it will not be introduced here or into the Dáil for at least another six months owing to the pressure of other business.
Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 1934—Second Stage.
Am I in order in speaking on the Second Reading?
Cathaoirleach
Yes.
When this Bill was under discussion on the last occasion, in April, the Minister for Defence made a statement that on every committee or sluagh of the new Volunteer force in Ireland there were members of the Opposition Party—of Fine Gael. I have absolute proof that that statement was not true. I should like to ask the Minister to state if on any one of these committees in Wexford there is a single person who is not an ardent adherent of the Fianna Fáil Government. I should like also to call his attention to the fact that the area officer of this force in Wexford has constantly attended political meetings—meetings of Fianna Fáil. I have a number of cuttings from local papers to prove that on one occasion this man attended a meeting of the I.R.A. It was a memorial meeting or something of that kind. The speeches made there on that occasion were violently opposed to all constitutional government even to the present Government. A person of strong and openly Communistic ideas at that meeting denounced the President of the Executive Council, the Government, and of course, all of us of the Opposition. This area officer, who is now an officer of the regular Army, attended that meeting. He did not speak, but nevertheless he gave approval of everything that was said by his presence there.
The volunteers themselves, as I have proof, have attended political meetings. Notices such as this have appeared in the local papers where a Fianna Fáil meeting was held and where a large number of the new Volunteer force in uniform attended the meetings. I have some cuttings here giving an account of that. Two weeks ago a volunteer in uniform was summoned to attend the District Court in Enniscorthy on a charge of riotous behaviour at a Fine Gael meeting there on the 28th April. He failed to appear in the court and no warrant has since been issued for his arrest. I should like to know from the Minister whether or not it is intended to issue a warrant as is usual in such cases. I should like the Minister also to tell us whether any reference is required from the Guards or the clergy, or from any of the people who usually give references, as to the character of these men who are being taken into this force. A case occurred in Dublin quite recently where a member of this force was prosecuted for neglecting his wife and sentenced to six months' imprisonment. It came out, during the progress of the case, that he had previously served a sentence of penal servitude. We have been told that in future officers of the regular Army are to be chosen from this Volunteer force. We can only say: "Heaven help us from the Army in future if people of this kind are to be chosen in the future."
When this Bill was up for discussion about four months ago I put down certain amendments which you, Sir, ruled out of order, largely, as I think, on the ground that very little notice had been given and very big issues were involved. Having ruled them out, you gave me permission to move without notice a motion to make the period of continuance only four months instead of the 12 months asked for. At the end of the four months we have the Bill back in its original form and no attempt now made, as I think can be inferred from the whole proceedings, to meet the wish of the Seanad that something should be done to ensure that men were not commissioned in the Army as officers who were without military training and who had no qualifications except the qualifications of a certain record in the past —which ought to be a disqualification —and of certain political views. I think it would be much more satisfactory if any amendments to a Bill of this sort were introduced by the Minister. He has opportunities of having them drafted, and of having every aspect of a proposed amendment considered, that ordinary members of the Seanad have not. As he has not seen fit, however, to deal with this problem in any way, I intend to put down again for your consideration, Sir, the amendments I had on the last occasion with, perhaps, one or two additional sections to cover points which I did not clearly see at the time.
It seems to me that it is a most undesirable thing that we should have this militia force, which is being formed, given deliberately by the Government, in spite of certain protestations, a political bias. I do not say that there is no attempt to get in people of different points of view from the Government, but the mere fact that admission to the force must be through these specially commissioned officers—and they, apparently, are going to have the decision of who are to be the officers in the force—means, of necessity, that they will have a political bias. That, undoubtedly, has operated on the minds of the men who have been recruited. For instance, there was an attack on a Blueshirt in O'Connell Street a few months ago where the man was set upon and beaten by the crowd, and two men in the uniform of this force were in the crowd. Of course that sort of misbehaviour by individuals might occur anywhere, but it is a very serious thing to have this sort of force growing up. No additional officers of this sort have been commissioned since some time before March, but, of course, the Bill had only four months left. I can tell the Minister that all sorts of rumours have been going around that more of these officers are going to be commissioned, and commissioned to the high ranks. That is a disturbing factor.
It is particularly necessary, in view of the fact that the officer personnel of the Army furnishes the members of the Military Tribunal, that there should not be the opportunities of pressure which the present state of the law gives. It is particularly necessary that that should not remain in the hands of the Government. I think it should not be possible for men to think that not only may they be removed from their posts, but that men from outside with no military experience may be brought in to replace them—political partisans to replace them—and that perhaps that policy of replacement by men with no military qualifications may be carried very far. I think, therefore, that not only should the bringing of men without training be stopped, but some assurance should be given against the arbitrary dismissal of the men with training already there. There is a general feeling that there is some extraordinary system of pressure being exerted to break down the morale of some officers who are charged with heavy and delicate responsibilities. Therefore, I think that the Seanad must give a Second Reading to the Bill, but I do not think the Seanad ought to continue the existing body of legislation without any amendment, having regard to the circumstances of the time.
You have allowed—I do not say improperly—Senator Blythe to make a number of peculiar statements. To my mind, the Seanad was very wrong on the last occasion when it refused to pass this Bill as introduced. As Senators are aware, it is entitled the "Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 1934," and its object is to continue the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act of 1923.
To 1934.
To 1934. My personal inclination is towards an annual Army Act. The law regulating discipline in the Army was so limited in these countries more than 200 years ago for a specific purpose—to prevent the monarch from having a permanent army and governing without the consent of Parliament. Parliament insisted that the Army Act should be brought before them once a year. I think that that was a wise provision. In the years since the Act of 1923 was passed a Bill for its renewal has been brought annually into the Oireachtas and passed as a matter of course. About a month ago the usual Bill came before the Seanad. Senators made it the subject of controversy and some very sinister suggestions were made. Senators did a thing then which, I say respectfully, was very unwise. They refused to pass the Army Bill as introduced. They introduced an amendment limiting its operation to four months. If the Executive had not been more prudent than the Seanad discipline in the Army would have been broken. The Army would have been disrupted and a state of revolution would have been precipitated. As long as I have been here, I have endeavoured to uphold the reputation of this great Assembly of sensible men. The action of the Seanad on that occasion will, I think, be judged as the main ground of any complaint which may be hereafter made against it. It certainly operated most in my mind and it would operate most in the mind of any person whose business it is to be thoroughly conversant with the constitutional history not merely of this country but of the other countries of Northern and NorthWestern Europe. I think that what the Seanad did on that occasion was a very serious thing. I have to congratulate the Ministry on accepting the amendment which was proposed by Senator Blythe and passed by this House limiting the duration of the Bill to four months. It was a humiliation to the Ministry. It would be a humiliation to any Ministry. It was unprecedented in the course of 250 years.
Was it not open to the Senator to resign when this humiliation took place?
I do not understand the interruption of Senator Gogarty, though I should like to understand it. If he has anything to say I shall give him a full opportunity to say it. I knew the Senator had nothing to say.
Cathaoirleach
I thought the Senator had sat down.
I sat down to give Senator Gogarty an opportunity to speak. He had no joke ready. Senator Blythe says that he intends to introduce a number of amendments to this Bill. No man in this House understands the effect of his amendments better than Senator Blythe does. He was responsible for the action of the Seanad in regard to the last Army Bill. He was also responsible for the action of the House in regard to another measure. He is probably responsible, to a great extent, for the measure which was debated in this House last week. He is, certainly, responsible for what he himself said. Let me read the last sentence in the speech of Senator Blythe.
Cathaoirleach
Is it relevant to the Defence Forces Bill?
It is. Senator Blythe said:
"It is not to get rid of something that the Government believes to be useless but it is simply an effort to gather all power into the hands of the people who were defeated in their attempt to override by force the majority will in 1922-23 and who, I believe, were mistakenly let go unpunished at that time."
I suggest that that is the spirit in which Senator Blythe has spoken on the present occasion and in which he has made the suggestions he has made. He says that there are rumours floating about the city. Rumours of what? Are you to act on the mere statement of a new Senator that rumours are floating about the city? He also says that attempts have been made to break down the morale of honourable gentlemen. I wonder if that has any reference to the motion which he was to have before the House to-day and which he has very prudently withdrawn. Who are the men in respect of whom an attempt has been made to undermine their morale? Are they the members of the Military Trimunal? I have been opposed to the establishment of a military tribunal or of military rule. I think that it is unwise and I hope that to my dying day I shall be opposed to military tribunals and always stand for civil liberty. But I am bound to say that I have appeared as an advocate before military tribunals and I find that the gentlemen who compose these tribunals are gentlemen of integrity. That does not diminish my unaltered and unalterable opposition to these tribunals. So far as I can judge from newspaper reports of proceedings in cases in which I myself did not appear, the findings of the Military Tribunal have been consistent. Whatever may appear from a casual reading of the judgement of the Military Tribunal in the case which was to be brought before this House, it will be found on examination that that verdict and finding was quite consistent and quite just. Therefore, Senator Blythe has no reason whatever——
Cathaoirleach
We are not discussing the Military Tribunal at present and I ask the Senator to desist from reference to it.
Senator Blythe has no reason whatever, on the Second Reading of this Bill, for making the suggestion that honourable men are being corrupted, or that their morale is being undermined. He has no reason whatever for stating that the new Volunteer force is being officered by men who are unworthy to be officers of that Volunteer force. He is making suggestions without any proof—suggestions which are very dangerous in the circumstances of the time. I am greatly surprised that a Senator of his experience, of his knowledge of affairs and of his ability should go forward in this way, adding fuel to the flame in very difficult and dangerous times. I hope that when his amendments come forward they will be rejected by this House. I have the greatest faith in the prudence and good sense of this House and I should not have spoken on the present occasion if it were not that I could not allow to go uncontradicted the suggestion that the morale of gentlemen of integrity was being undermined.
Senator Blythe is certainly an adept at innuendo. So far as the innuendo, that pressure was brought to bear upon members of the Military Tribunal to bring in a certain verdict in a certain case, reflects upon the Government, it does not affect them in the slightest. In so far as that innuendo reflects upon the behaviour of the Government, it only discovers Senator Blythe to the country, showing what he would attempt to do in similar circumstances. In so far as it reflects upon the honour of the four or five officers of the Army, I think that innuendo is most contemptible and unworthy. The gentlemen who are members of that Tribunal do not require any defence from me. But I certainly think it was a scandalous insinuation or innuendo for Senator Blythe to make. Senator Blythe has talked about rumours going around the city. I think Senator Blythe is the principal source of a great number of rumours that have started in this country for a number of years. However, the people of the country know that the Government are endeavouring to act in a straightforward and honourable fashion, and they do not pay much heed to Senator Blythe's rumours. A certain number of people will, of course, be always affected by them, but I do not think that the majority of the people of the country will ever again be affected by them. Senator Blythe rebukes me for not having made provision for the introduction of a permanent Bill at the end of four months. I have already informed the House that so far as the Department of Defence is concerned, it is finished with the permanent Army Bill, which, I hope, will be introduced as quickly as the other Departments concerned can deal with it. Owing to the pressure of other Government business, it has been found impossible to have it dealt with and introduced.
Regarding certain allegations made by another Senator, I wish to say this: that if a volunteer is found to be guilty of any scandalous behaviour, or if he is tried and found guilty in the civil courts of a criminal offence he will be immediately dismissed. It is impossible to ensure, when a large number of men are recruited, that every one of them is up to the standard required. About 19,000 volunteers applied for admission to the volunteers within the last few months. It may happen that an odd one will get through who will bring no credit to the volunteers, but if it is discovered that any of them act in a way that will not bring credit on the volunteers or on the country, I promise that they will be immediately dismissed. One volunteer has been so dismissed already.
I think there is no necessity for me to go into, or combat, at the moment the amendments which Senator Blythe introduced to the last Army Bill. I hope that upon second thoughts he will refrain from putting in the amendments which he introduced on the last occasion. It is altogether unprecedented that amendments to the Army Bill, or to any other annual Act, should be introduced except by the Government. However, if he insists on going ahead with the amendments they can be debated when they come up on the Committee Stage.
The Minister has not answered my questions.
Cathaoirleach
The debate is now closed and the Senator cannot speak again. The Minister has stated that if anyone is found guilty of misbehaviour he will be dismissed immediately, and that one person had already been dismissed.
But the Minister did not deal with the case of the Enniscorthy volunteer who was summoned before the District Court and did not appear and for whose arrest no warrant has been issued.
Cathaoirleach
The Minister may or may not, as he wishes, deal with any particular matter. The debate is now closed.
He admits by his silence that they took part in political activities.
Cathaoirleach
You must not make another speech, Senator.
Question put and agreed to.
Cathaoirleach
In view of the intimation given by Senator Blythe that he intends to hand in certain amendments on the Committee Stage of this Bill of a kind that gave me some difficulty on a previous occasion, I should like the Committee Stage to be deferred till Wednesday week and that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges should be summoned for 11 a.m. next Wednesday to consider the amendments in question from the point of view as to whether they are in order or not. Is that agreed?
Agreed.
Cathaoirleach
I hope that if these amendments are to be handed in they will be given to the Clerk within the next few days so that they may be before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges when it meets.