Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Jun 1934

Vol. 18 No. 24

Constitution (Amendment No. 25) Bill, 1934—Fifth Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Before this Bill passes its Final Stage I should like to remove a misapprehension which seems to have been created in the minds of some people who will have to deal with this Bill when it leaves this House. I heard one Deputy suggest that, if the Bill becomes an Act, its terms may be applied to Acts which have already passed the Oireachtas. A great railwayman said some time ago that the only exercise that some people take is jumping to conclusions. I am afraid that that would apply to the grotesque apprehension which has been created in this particular respect. Reference to the Bill will show that no Bill can be submitted to referendum unless a written request in respect to it is presented to the President of the Executive Council not later than seven days from the day on which the Bill shall be so passed or deemed to have been so passed. Quite obviously, therefore, the terms of this Bill could not apply to any Bills which have now become Acts. In any case, I could not imagine any person professing to be a democrat having any objection to any Bill, even one which had become an Act, being submitted to the judgment of the people.

I should like also to emphasise the fact that this people is devoid of Party association. I, for one, would not have anything to do with the Bill or help its passage into law if I thought it had any tinge of Party politics. I have associated myself with the Bill because of the fact that I think it is a necessary safeguard for democracy. It is a good Bill in itself. I support it because I opposed as vigorously as I could the deletion of the referendum provisions from the original Constitution. I hope that elsewhere, all Parties will see the wisdom of treating this Bill in a non-Party way and of discussing it on its merits solely. I think that if they look at the experience we have gathered since this State was formed they will agree that this measure is necessary in the interests of us all. A constitution is a contract made with the people, all the people, and not merely a majority of them. It should have more stability than an ordinary Act of the Oireachtas which can be altered by a decision of a bare majority of the elected representatives in the Dáil. Many things have been done by majorities, bare majorities in some cases, who are flushed with victory or inflamed with passion, which are not just or right according to the laws of God or man. We know that there was a definite majority for the Crucifixion of Christ but that did not render the act right in itself. There should, in the long run, be some haven of refuge to which a minority who are oppressed by the majority should be able to retire and therein find security. The Constitution, which should represent the fundamental principles upon which our State is formed and upon which all Parties may agree irrespective of detailed differences regarding general legislation, should, in my opinion, form such a haven of security. If the Constitution can be altered from year to year and from month to month, without any reference whatever to the people with whom the contract was made, then it becomes a mere delusion and a snare.

We are told that adult suffrage and five-yearly elections are the best possible safeguard. They are a safeguard to a certain degree, but they are certainly not an adequate safeguard for many reasons. One reason is that, in regard to constitutional law any more than general law, you cannot rely upon any single Party in the country "staying put", so to speak, during a period of five years. An Opposition, that represent themselves as the unbiased and pure-souled advocates of the best type of democracy, can very quietly and very easily shed their democratic tendencies after a short time of office. Even the most reactionary government, when hurled from power, becomes an advocate of both constitutional and individual liberty the moment it becomes the Opposition. We have numerous instances of that for our own use and benefit. The late Government proceeded to knock out of the Constitution anything that tended to delay or impede their progress or to interfere with Party policy without even giving these Articles of the Constitution a fair trial as trials go in national affairs. They now protest vigorously against a similar tendency on the part of their successors. They eliminated the Referendum from the Constitution, but they are now apparently agreeable to its reinstatement although they professed to look upon it as an eyesore and a hindrance to liberty. The Fianna Fáil Party violently opposed the removal of the Referendum, but since they were returned to power they have given no indication whatever of their desire to reinstate it. Naturally, they desired to avail themselves of the same freedom which they denounced the late Government for seeking to secure for themselves.

The Cosgrave Government sponsored a Public Safety Act amending the Constitution, and it was declared by the then Opposition to be the most ruthless and unjustifiable invasion of public and private liberty in the history of parliaments. Yet, on being returned to power, they not only failed to repeal that Act but gladly seized upon it as a dandy weapon against the very same people by whom they said the Act was inspired.

And one Senator says we will have it for two or three generations.

The most learned and fiery opponents of it in this House became the most perfervid advocates of it when a change of government came about.

I do not intend to give names. Neither Government could claim a mandate for that Act, but I think that surely the present Government could claim a mandate for its repeal. Now, in view of these contortions on the part of Deputies and Senators of all Parties—I am excepting none—what guarantee have the people, when they elect a Government to power, that that Government is going to act in accordance with the principles upon which it was elected? There is no guarantee. What happens in regard to general legislation may very well happen, and it has happened, in regard to constitutional legislation. The late Government had very little compunction in putting the extinguisher on local bodies that they considered were not acting as they should. That was violently opposed by the Opposition, who said that new elections should take place instead. Yet we have the present Government extinguishing county councils at the rate of one per month and we have the very people who denounced the closing down of the Dublin Corporation and other bodies loudly applauding the present Government for extinguishing county councils at the present time for the same reason.

The attitude of the present Opposition is most illuminating. In the Dáil, where they were in a minority, and where their votes did not count, they vigorously opposed Bills proposing cuts in the salaries of civil servants and officials of local bodies, and sponsored numerous amendments deleting various sections of the Bill so as to make it inoperative. In the Seanad, where they were in a majority, they either voted for these Bills or abstained from voting, and voted against many of the amendments that their colleagues in the other House had voted for. That, of course, was because they would have been carried if they had voted for them here. The Opposition that were pledged against anything in the nature of wage-cutting definitely and actively associated themselves with the policy of wage-cutting in that particular instance. Of course I know that this is all in accordance with the game of politics, and I am sufficiently realist to know that we cannot hope always to allow national affairs to supersede Party expediency; but the electors, the ordinary people, should have some real protection against those Party contortionists so far as their fundamental rights as citizens are concerned as laid down in the Constitution.

It has been argued also that, through the action and inter-action of small groups or Parties, menaces to public liberties can be averted. The experience of other countries, however, shows that that is not always so. A judicious distribution of a few salaried posts, and the creation in the minds of others of a lively sense of favours to come, invariably create chaos and confusion in the ranks of all Parties and render them too often the tools of their bigger brothers. This may never happen in this country, but if we pretend that we are political purists and above the rest of mankind, I am afraid we are claiming a little too much. I am afraid that there will be in this country always, as in every other country, an element among politicians who will be prepared to adjust their political convictions to suit the requirements of the Party having at its disposal the disposition of privilege, patronage and power.

The Labour Party!

Again, admitting that we cannot hope to be perfect in all things political, I think we should at least save ourselves as well as our opponents in all cases from having the power, when temptation offers, to filch from the people the rights and privileges for which many generations of men and women have fought and suffered. One would like to think that the Constitution here was the repository of the liberties and freedom of the ordinary people and that it would not be open to any single Party, without consulting the people on that single issue, to make a serious invasion on those rights and privileges. Otherwise, we may find that, through amendments to the Constitution, by one Party first and then by the other, most of the best sections of that Constitution are gradually frittered away, and the effect of that will be felt not only by this generation but by generations to come. In order to get them back, a further sacrifice of blood and tears may be necessary, and I think it is up to us, now that the powers lie with us, to see that this sacrifice should not be necessary in the future.

I would not be disposed to entrust to any single Party in the State, acting on a bare majority of the elected representatives, the right to invade the constitutional rights, liberties or privileges of the people as a whole. I would have much greater faith in the people as a whole that, on one single issue referred to them on a plain straight vote, they would take a decision that would be more consistent with freedom and liberty than any Party could take, dominated, as it must be, by Party and political expediency. I hope, therefore, that all Parties, having something to answer for in regard to their attitude whilst in Opposition and whilst in power, and knowing as they do the temptations that are placed in the way of politicians, will, in the interests of the people for whose wellbeing they profess such concern, give legislative effect to this Bill. No democrat need fear it, and I think that in the long run it will be found that it will have the effect of preventing, to a very considerable extent, the elimination from our political institutions of some of the very best sections that have been inserted into the original Constitution.

We are threatened with dictatorships here, and at the moment it is difficult to say whether these dictatorships shall come from the Right or from the Left. The one thing, however, that I believe will or can prevent a dictatorship, apart from the deliberate decision of the people themselves acting under adult suffrage, is the passing of this Bill into law. Those who fear dictatorships at least should put this barrier in their way. Accordingly, I hope that whatever may be thought about the circumstances in which the referendum was first interfered with, the referendum, as now proposed, will receive the unanimous vote of the people's representatives not only here but in the other House also.

I think it is a pity that Senator O'Farrell did not deal a little with the record of the Labour Party, because if he had devoted a little industry to the study of their record he would have found them to be the greatest contortionists so far as any Party in this country is concerned. With regard to this Bill, I could not do more myself than praise it with faint damns. I do not think the referendum is very much good. I fear that if a Government is inclined to take away the rights of the people when it is in the first flush of its popularity, it will be able to carry a referendum. I am afraid that if it is faced with a referendum and if it is an unscrupulous Government it will be very difficult to get a fair vote. In any case I think that it is almost always impossible to get a single issue put clearly before the people. Theoretically, there is no reason why it should not be done, but in practice it will always be found that other things will be brought in to cloud the minds of the voters. I think it would be very much better if we had a constitutional feeling among Parties and if we had a Second House which was independent of the First House, or of the Dáil, which changed more slowly and which was less dominated by Party. That seems to me to be a much better arrangement than any other that can be devised. If it were not for the proposal which has been before this House and which has, apparently, been determined by the Government—to abolish the Seanad—I should be inclined to vote against this Bill. But if the Seanad is to be abolished, then any check, however little confidence we may feel in it, ought to be applied if it is possible to get agreement on it. If the Seanad goes and there is no provision for a referendum, it means that we have, in fact, a dictatorship because we have a majority without any limitations on its power. This Bill, if adopted, would provide certain limitations. It might not effectively safeguard the people's rights —I am afraid it would not—because it is more easy to mislead the majority of the people if a Government sets out to do it than it is to get rid of their rights over the opposition of the Dáil and an independent Second Chamber. Senator O'Farrell seemed to place great reliance on what could be done by a referendum. I was told on very reliable authority that, at the last election in Dublin City and County, there were from 10,000 to 12,000 personated votes. Two Deputies were elected by the dead and the absent.

There was no change of opinion there.

I know of whole districts where the minority could not vote at all because of terrorism, which obtained to such an extent that personating agents could not be got. I know that that happened in districts in Kerry and in districts in Connemara, so that if you rely on the referendum to beat a Government with the record that Fianna Fáil has, you may be sure that they will be only beaten when there is a very substantial majority against them. As I see nothing better offering, and as the proposal to abolish the Seanad continues, I shall vote for this Bill.

I have listened with tremendous interest to the two speeches that have just been delivered. If ever this House had the appearance of a restaurant it is to-day. I never saw such a mixed grill in all my life as was presented to us to-day. As regards Senator O'Farrell's speech, I agree with every word he said. He hit off the situation between a Government and an Opposition as I had never heard it hit off before. I leave it at that.

Sometimes I find it difficult to follow Senator Blythe. It is a case of "first he would and then he wouldn't." He is for the referendum and he is against the referendum. With the greatest respect, I think that the reason why Senator Blythe made such a speech was to cover up his tracks as a member of the former Government in destroying the referendum. I thoroughly agree with Senator Blythe when he says that, if we are to have a Second Chamber, it should be thoroughly independent of the other House. That is the real bone of contention so far as the Seanad is concerned. If we had a Second Chamber independent of the other House it would not now be on the books that the Seanad is to be done away with in the course of 18 months.

Question put and agreed to.

Cathaoirleach

As Senator The McGillycuddy is not present to bring forward for discussion the matter of which he gave me notice in writing under Standing Order 24, we shall now take the adjournment. The House stands adjourned until 3 o'clock next Wednesday.

The Seanad adjourned at 4.40 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 13th June, 1934.

Top
Share