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Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 24 Aug 1934

Vol. 19 No. 3

Industrial Alcohol Bill, 1934—Second Stage.

Question proposed:—"That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

As Senators are, no doubt, aware, the Government have decided to embark upon an experimental development of the industrial alcohol industry in the Saorstát. The industrial alcohol industry has been established in a number of countries and various agricultural products are used for the purpose of producing the alcohol. It can, in fact, be produced from any vegetable product, but those most frequently used are potatoes, beet, and sometimes corn. There is a market for industrial alcohol as such —a market in industry—but not any very substantial market in this country at present. In order to encourage its production and to confer upon the agricultural communities the benefits arising from its production, various Governments have adopted a system of requiring the compulsory admixture of home-produced industrial alcohol with imported petrol for motor fuel purposes. It was the experience of those countries which decided us to examine the matter here and, following that examination, to engage upon a certain experimental development, because we found it impossible to arrive at any firm conclusion as to the possibilities of the industry here from a mere examination of data or the position in other countries.

It was accordingly decided to erect a number of small distilleries capable of producing between them about 600,000 gallons of industrial alcohol and to base our calculations as to whether there should be a larger scale development of the industry in this country upon the experience gained from the operations of these distilleries. The total quantity of alcohol to be produced under this scheme is, of course, a very small proportion of the amount of petrol used for fuel purposes at the present time. Deducting from the quantity I have mentioned the amount of industrial alcohol that can be sold as such, replacing the alcohol at present imported, and the possibility of securing an increased use of it following various industrial developments here, the amount available for admixture with petrol for motor fuel purposes will be not more than 1½ per cent.

The original intention was to establish this group of distilleries in the North Louth and adjoining areas because of the difficulties experienced by farmers in that area, which, as Senators are aware, is a scheduled black scab area, in disposing of potatoes under the present circumstances. Certain modifications of the original decision have had to be made. It was intended to have five small distilleries, capable of dealing with about 7,000 tons of potatoes each per annum, with one central refining plant. It has now been provisionally decided to have two distilleries in the area I mentioned and two in County Donegal, one distillery in each case being of a somewhat larger size than originally contemplated, that is, capable of dealing with 10,000 tons of potatoes per annum instead of 7,000 tons.

The distillery which will be established in the Cooley area will, we anticipate, be capable of dealing with the entire potato crop in that area. There will be another distillery somewhere in County Monaghan, although it is not yet definitely certain that the supply of potatoes which will be required to operate that distillery will be regularly available from that county. The other two will be in County Donegal. The peculiarity of North Louth and Donegal in respect of potato growing is that these areas have always grown potatoes for export and have apparently been satisfied to continue growing potatoes, even though they have secured in the past substantially lower prices than farmers secured elsewhere, or would grow potatoes for elsewhere.

It is not possible to give any firm indication of the price at which the alcohol will be available. That will depend upon a number of factors which are at present unknown. One of the principal factors is the starch content of the potatoes which can be grown here. We have, of course, tested the starch content of various varieties of potatoes grown and we have got widely different results. In some cases the starch content was as low as 6 per cent. and in other cases it was as high as 22 per cent. It is hoped we will be able to secure, in the areas in which these distilleries will be established, a supply of potatoes with a starch content averaging about 18 per cent. If potatoes can be secured with that starch content and at a price not less than the price which has been prevailing in these areas for potatoes during the past few years then, taking into account the present prices payable for the other products necessary, such as barley and coal, and also the prevailing rate of wages, we should be able to make the alcohol available to the petrol importers or refiners at a price possibly less, but certainly not more than, 2/- per gallon.

That will depend upon the possibility of disposing of the by-product of the alcohol, which is called wash and which is used extensively on the Continent as a cattle food, at a price equivalent to a halfpenny a gallon. It is the intention during the experimental period to have the State purchase the wash from the distilleries at that price and either dispose of it to the farmers by sale, or else dispose of it free. So far as the industrial alcohol scheme is concerned, we are guaranteeing in respect of it that the price of the alcohol will not be increased by reason of difficulties in disposing of the by-product. The Dáil has voted the necessary money to acquire land, erect buildings and purchase machinery. It is proposed to operate this experimental development as a purely State scheme. The various matters in connection with it will be-carried out by the Minister for Industry and Commerce directly, advised by a Committee, provision for which is made in the Bill. The money required in the initial stages has been voted and certain progress has been made in the preparation of plans, the location of sites, the formation of the Committee and the examination of other problems likely to arise. The matter could not proceed further in the absence of legislation, because it is necessary to confer on the Minister powers to acquire land to erect the distilleries, to sell the alcohol and so forth, and particularly powers to enter into a contract with a firm of technical experts in order to secure their advice and assistance throughout the operation of the experimental scheme. That is the main purpose of this Bill.

Section 4 is the operative section and it empowers the Minister to do all the things set out in the first sub-section—that is, to acquire land, to purchase, hire, or otherwise provide machinery, to purchase raw materials, to enter into contracts and so forth. Sub-section (2) indicates the nature of the agreement we contemplate making. It provides that the contractors shall prepare the plans, supervise the purchase and erection of the machinery, enter into certain undertakings as to the efficiency of the plant they erect, appoint for the period for which they will be under guarantee the managing director and the biological engineers and so forth. It is necessary to give the contractors that power, because they will be required to guarantee the efficiency of the machinery. If the machinery should prove to be less efficient than they indicate, then certain penalties will be payable by them, and in order to enable them to ensure that the machinery will give the best results they must have the right, for a period at least, to nominate the persons responsible for its operation. The skeleton contract also provides for the training of Saorstát citizens in the various technical processes of the industry.

Part 2 of the Bill is similar to corresponding parts in other Bills of this nature and it provides for the compulsory acquisition of land, the payment of compensation and power to operate transport works which may be necessary in connection with the scheme. Part 4 of the Bill makes provision to enable the Minister for Industry and Commerce to require the petrol importers, and refiners, to purchase the industrial alcohol available from the distilleries in whatever quantity it may be available and at whatever price may be fixed. Provision is made for the establishment of an Industrial Alcohol Advisory Board. That board has been constituted of certain officers of the Department of Industry and Commerce, an officer of the Department of Agriculture and certain Irish experts in chemical matters. They have consented to act with the managing director appointed in accordance with the provisions of the Bill on the nomination of the contractors.

The financial provisions are quite simple. It is proposed that every year there should be voted from the Exchequer all the moneys required in connection with the operation of the distilleries and that all the sums received in respect of them should be paid into the Exchequer, so that the fullest possible financial control over the whole business is retained for the Dáil. Various doubts have been expressed about the wisdom of proceeding with this development mainly because the price at which industrial alcohol is available in other countries, where similar schemes are operated, appears to be high. It is not possible to find out with any degree of certainly what is the actual cost of producing industrial alcohol in other countries. The only information we have got is the price actually fixed, the price at which petrol monopolies are required to purchase it. That varies from one country to another, the lowest being 1/6 and the highest 3/6 per gallon. There may be, and probably there are, various factors which will reduce the price in one case below the actual production cost and increase it in other cases above the production cost.

Will the Minister say what amount is involved? He mentioned that the Dáil has voted the necessary finance for the initial expenditure, but he did not state the amount.

It is £100,000. It is contemplated the actual cost of the distilleries—erecting buildings, purchasing plant, etc.—will be about £60,000, and that the acquisition of land and the construction of roadways and perhaps railways will absorb some of the balance. Provision is also included in that sum for working capital for the present year. I do not know how far we are likely to get in the present year. I do not think it will be possible to get more than one of the distilleries established because of the period of the year. Probably there will be one in the Cooley area that will deal with some portion of this year's potato crop, although I understand the conditions in the market are such that there will be no difficulty of disposing of that crop. There has been throughout the Continent a considerable shortage of potatoes, and in Germany the import duties on potatoes have been reduced in order to maintain the home supplies.

The actual employment that will be given under the scheme is not very substantial. The number of people to be employed in each distillery will not be more than ten or 12. The main benefit will be to the agricultural community and the town in which the distillery is located. The whole thing is only experimental. I want to stress that. I cannot give anything in the nature of a definite programme such as is made out in connection with any industrial policy that may be undertaken, for instance in regard to the sugar beet scheme. We do not know what the result will be. We hope it will be good. Certain persons who have gone into the matter are optimistic that it will be possible to produce industrial alcohol here under better conditions than elsewhere. On the other hand, it may prove a complete failure and not worth establishing to an extent beyond the experimental stage. That has all to be determined. The various factors I have mentioned, the average starch content that can be realised, the period of the year in which the factories can be operated, the possible commercial market for by-products, and the possibility of developing the ordinary commercial market for alcohol have all to be determined. The effect of the experiment upon the price of petrol will be negligible. The very small addition of alcohol to petrol required under the Bill, cannot have any substantial effect upon the price, having regard to the fact that alcohol will not be liable to the tax petrol is liable to. We feel that that should be indicated. People here complain of our petrol tax of 8d. per gallon. I took the precaution of finding out what the tax was in other countries and I find that ours is one of the lowest in the world. In some countries it is 2/- per gallon. I do not suppose that we shall ever raise our tax to that figure.

What is it in America?

In America it is not very high. It is best expressed in this way. About one-third of what the consumer pays in America is the tax. Here it is 8d. out of 1/7; and it will not be necessary to increase the tax on petrol because of this development. In fact, with the various projects in contemplation and various developments taking place, we may have motor fuel cheaper here than in other countries. If that is so, no burden will fall upon the people from the operation of this measure which I commend to the Seanad.

The Minister has told us, so far as I can gather, that this is a pure experiment, and in the latter portion of his observations he indicated he was not very clear as to what the result of the experiment would be—whether it would be a success or a failure. He was certainly doubtful, if we succeeded in producing industrial alcohol, at what price it could be sold to the purchaser. I am not going to pretend I am an authority on this, or that I have anything more than a superficial knowledge of the subject. The only point I put forward is that this experiment is going to cost £100,000. It seems to be an adventure into the unknown, judging from the speech of the Minister. It is going to involve the setting up of four distilleries. I would like to know is an exhaustive experiment such as the Minister contemplates necessary to be embarked upon. And is it necessary to incur the expenditure of erecting four factories? Could an experiment which would be equally complete not be tried on a smaller scale in view of the uncertainty indicated by the Minister as to what the outcome of such an experiment may be? I read a report of the discussion in the Dáil and I noted the figures given and I ask the Minister would not an experiment much less expensive prove equally conclusive so far as a matter of this kind is concerned.

I would like to follow up what Senator Milroy has just said. The Minister has given us a very fair account of the Bill and its proposals, and they would seem from what he told us to be water-tight. On the other hand, he touched very lightly upon what the cost will be and upon what the result of the experience of other countries in this matter has been. I think before we finally decide upon the matter the House should be made aware of the results of certain experiments, and what actually occurred in other countries engaged in the production of industrial alcohol. The Minister has mentioned the fact that the production of this industrial alcohol has been brought about almost entirely for the benefit of the agrarian interest, and where the agrarian interest is very strong. Experience has shown that little would have been heard of alcoholic motor fuels had it not been for the political pressure exercised by agrarian interests. Where agrarian interests are powerful, whether in continental Europe, South Africa and Australia, the Argentine or the United States, a domestic alcohol agitation is always active. Leaving that and coming to the manufacture in other countries of industrial alcohol, it has been found to be an uneconomic commercial proposition. There is no question, I believe, on that score. Granted that is the case, then we have to look about to see how the loss can be made as small as possible.

Some years ago, the British Government set up a Fuel Research Board, which went very closely into the subject of all fuels for power purposes. Several reports were issued by the board and are available now. One of these reports specially dealt with the subject of fuel research in connection with the motor industry, and in that report they went exhaustively into the different materials which could be used for the production of alcohol. It came down to practically three possible raw materials which would be suitable for Ireland for this purpose — potatoes, mangolds and sugar beet. Of the three, the most economic material was, undoubtedly, the potato. This, however, is what they reported at the end of their experiments—I am reading from the report of the British Fuel Research Board:—

"It is very unlikely that potatoes can be grown at a price which would make it possible to obtain alcohol from them for use as an alternative to petrol at anything approaching its present price. Stated briefly, one ton of potatoes produced 20 gallons of power alcohol, so that every pound sterling it costs to grow a ton of potatoes is equivalent to one shilling on a gallon of alcohol for the raw material only."

It would put a shilling on to the price of the imperial gallon of alcohol. I do not know whether farmers in this country would care to grow potatoes at £1 a ton. Perhaps my friend, Senator Wilson, would be able to tell us whether it is an economic proposition to grow potatoes at £1 a ton. It may be so, but I can hardly think that he would, and even if he could, the price of the spirit produced by his patriotic endeavours would be prohibitive in cost.

The Department of Agriculture, in a report on agricultural conditions in the Saorstát, recently reported that the lowest price for potatoes then ranged between £4 and £8 a ton. If £4 a ton had to be paid for the raw material for the production of alcohol, that would at once put 4/- on each gallon of alcohol produced. Excluding Revenue duties—that is to say, the Excise duties—some recent comparative prices of petrol and power alcohol per imperial gallon in the following countries have been ascertained to be as follows:—In Germany, the cost of petrol 4d. a gallon, and of alcohol, produced principally from potatoes, 41d.; in Czecho-Slovakia, petrol 3¾., and alcohol 35d.; in Hungary, petrol 4¼., and alcohol 30d.; in Italy, petrol 4¼., and alcohol 26d. When it comes then to the use of these substances, the duty in the one case and the subsidy in the other —because there must be a subsidy for the production of the alcohol—level up the price to the consumer; but it should not be forgotten that in both cases—and more particularly in the case of alcohol—the taxpayer really pays the bill.

Then, again, the figures in connection with alcohol as a State enterprise are amazing. Take the case of France. In 1932, some two million hectolitres of power alcohol distilled from sugar beet cost the State 566,000,000 francs. An estimate recently published by the United States Secretary of Agriculture disclosed that the cost of producing power alcohol from maize, and making obligatory a ten per cent. blend with petrol, placed an extra burden on the consumer of about 575,000,000 dollars. Those are stupendous figures for the production of alcohol for use as a fuel.

In my remarks, I have endeavoured to explain to the House, as far as I have been able to make out, that past experience has shown that the production of alcohol as a motor fuel, although it may, to some extent, relieve unemployment by tillage and agriculture and the production of the raw material which it involves, still can never be looked upon as an economic proposition and that the cost must be borne by the State; that is to say, by the taxpayer. I feel, however, that no great harm can be done by undertaking a limited experiment in the Saorstát as proposed by the Bill, always provided that until the practical results of the venture are known, the expenditure will be kept within strictly experimental limits. The Minister has told us that this undertaking is going to be an experimental one. If that is so, as I say, I think that no harm may be done and it may be of considerable use. If the expenditure is kept within experimental limits and is reasonably carried out in that way we will know what the results are likely to be. I consider that £100,000 is nothing here or there for the purposes of experimenting and I do not consider it an unreasonable sum, but I hold that no large grants should be asked for and no heavy expenditure made until the results of these experiments are known. If anybody is interested in the subject, I might add that they can obtain much information from the reports published by the Fuel Research Board on Fuel for Motor Transport. The reports are available and are extremely interesting. The researches they undertook are very interesting indeed and the reports give very valuable information.

There is another subject that has not been touched upon by the Minister very much, and that is the admixture of the alcohol produced with petrol. People who go in for motoring will probably be able to speak of that. I understand that it has not been an unqualified success and the proportions in which the mixture has been fixed by different countries vary very much—I believe, from ten per cent. to thirty per cent. I do not know what particular percentage has been found to be the best, but I have reason to believe that people who motor a great deal, and who understand the use of these fuels for motoring purposes, do not welcome the admixture of alcohol and petrol. It may involve a considerable outlay and expense in the production of engines that are suitable for any mixture of that description. However, that is a matter for people who are more qualified than I to speak on the subject and who know more about the internal combustion engine.

I am sure that the House is very much indebted to Senator Guinness for the very fair and helpful speech which he made on this subject. It is true to say that the Minister has introduced this measure with very great moderation, and I think he might, if he chose, have adopted a much more hopeful and confident tone in relation to this question of industrial alcohol. The subject does not begin and end with the question of price. The manufacture of alcohol from potatoes, beet, sugar or mangolds will have a very beneficial indirect effect upon the agricultural community. Potatoes are a crop in regard to which you cannot say beforehand whether you will have a bumper harvest or not. Sometimes potatoes are scarce and at other times they are so plentiful that the farmer does not know what to do with them. That happened, the year before last There was a tremendous crop of potatoes in the country and, I think as a result, they were down as low as 1½d. per stone. That is the £1 a ton referred to by Senator Guinness.

Senators must remember that when the price of potatoes is spoken of it is the price of selected potatoes—the big ones. The potatoes useful as human food are the potatoes spoken of. But there are small potatoes, and I think these can be used in the manufacture of industrial alcohol. Another very important consideration, and one in which I would defer to the opinion of Senator Guinness, is this—the wash from the distillery is a very useful food for cattle. It is a kind of food which is specially useful for cows in those parts of the country where potatoes are grown. I have in mind a place where a factory, even an experimental factory, would be of the greatest advantage to the people of the area.

The County Clare, to be sure.

I am not referring to the County Clare. County Clare gets nothing. County Clare is the Cinderella of the counties. When you want a lead in Ireland you go to Clare, but when you want to start a factory you do not go there, because we never ask for anything. It is not in County Clare but it is a place in the County Galway, not far removed from Clare.

I thought so.

I am sure my friend has heard of "Old Kinvara and the Old Plaid Shawl." It is there I am going to suggest that the Minister should establish one of his experimental factories and for this reason—it so happens that at the present time that district in County Galway seems to be suffering very much indeed. I am told that around the little seaport of Kinvara—a very good port too—the people are very poor indeed. It is an area around which potatoes are grown, and potatoes of a description of absolutely the very best for the manufacture of alcohol because the starch content of the potatoes in that district is very high indeed. Senator Milroy will understand what I mean when I say that they are "floury" potatoes— potatoes with the highest content of starch.

That is all the worse for this purpose.

Wait a moment now. My friend Senator Johnson says that potatoes with a high starch content are the worst. I happen to have some knowledge of the distilling of what was called patent spirits. Of course that is not alcohol of the description that is manufactured in the distilleries in the City of Dublin. But it is called patent spirit because it was made in a patent still. My recollection is that when the prices of materials were something about the same as they are now, it was possible to turn out patent spirits—that is this spirit—at 1/3 a gallon. It used to be done at that figure when the prices of materials were somewhat the same as now. Therefore when the Minister mentions 2/- a gallon I think he is rather conservative in his estimate. I am thankful to Senator Guinness for the statement which he made upon this subject and also for the fact that he does not discourage this and because he is in favour of experimental distilleries being set up.

Senator Guinness mentioned 2/3 a gallon.

I know he did. He is going on figures. Senator Guinness gave us exact figures and I accept every statement he has made on this subject. He said that in Germany petrol was 4d. a gallon and this industrial alcohol was 41 pence a gallon. In Czecho-Slovakia it is 35 pence a gallon for industrial alcohol and in Italy industrial alcohol costs 26 pence a gallon. Now Italy is a country which is not suitable for the growth of potatoes. Of the three countries—Germany, Hungary and Italy—Italy is the country which is least suitable for the production of potatoes. For that reason I say that if the cost of the alcohol is high in Germany or Prussia—a good potato producing country—and in Czecho-Slovakia where potatoes will grow in great abundance, what I submit is that there must be some special reason for it. I believe there was a famine of potatoes in some of these areas last year and the year before. This year, I understand, there is a famine of potatoes in Germany and that is probably the reason why the import duties are withdrawn. Senator Johnson may be able to enlighten you further on these subjects. But my objection—and it is an objection to the scheme so far as we have heard it—is that of all these factories, and there are five, two are in Louth. I do not object to that. There is to be one in Monaghan and two in Donegal. Why should there not be at least one in the Province of Connaught or in the Province of Munster?

This is only an experiment.

Wait a moment. This is not to be an experiment. This is to be a success. Senator Counihan will have nothing but grass—the economic war again. The Minister has introduced his measure as an experimental measure. He has made no claim which he is not justified in making. This is not going to be an experiment, it is going to be a success.

The Minister himself states that it is going to be an experiment.

The Minister is not so sure of his case as Senator Comyn.

The Minister did not overstate his case. He stated it clearly, and I am entitled——

To overstate it.

I am entitled to give my opinion from my knowledge of these matters and I do submit when one is considering the advantage to agriculture of the by-products that every consideration should be taken into account in the matter of the manufacture of industrial alcohol in this country. This thing will be a success. For that reason, I do make a suggestion to the Minister, because the Minister has said that his plans are not definite and that they are still subject to variations. I do make the suggestion to the Minister that one of these experimental distilleries should be established in the South of Connaught in the area around Kinvara.

I have a complaint to make on this Bill which I have made before. I should like to throw out a suggestion for the Minister's consideration that, whenever Bills of this kind are brought forward, it would be very helpful to either House if the Minister would adopt the practice of other countries and produce something in the nature of an explanatory White Paper giving the basis of calculation of the cost and a general explanation, over which one could ponder, of the intentions and purposes of these Bills. That applies particularly to Bills where statistics are involved which cannot be examined on a Second Reading statement. Such procedure would, in my view, certainly lessen the burden thrown on Ministers in either House, because all the questions that inevitably arise would probably be forestalled by the White Paper circulated. I throw out that suggestion, and regret that it has not been adopted in the case of this Bill as it was in the case of one or two other Bills. It has never been adopted as a general procedure.

I think it is very desirable that the Minister should be encouraged to enter into experiments for the development of industrial activities arising directly out of agriculture. I take it this is part of a general policy, I think an inevitable policy, to divert the products of agriculture to industrial purposes instead of trying to export them to markets that are being closed. If we take the Cooley area as one illustration, and the Donegal area as another, the necessity for some outlet for agricultural produce is forced on the mind of the Ministry. This is one of the methods for finding an alternative use for agricultural products. I think it is very desirable that the Minister should be encouraged to experiment in such directions. This is not an experiment that is entirely new. I think Senator Milroy is slightly under a misapprehension in appearing to think that it is an experiment on the technical or scientific side. I take it that the experiment is rather on the agricultural side, as to whether produce can be obtained in anything like the quantities and the right quality from these districts to make it reasonably economical—that is to say, that the cost will not be overwhelming by using potatoes.

I presume the reason that these northern counties have been chosen for the experiment is because the other industrial agricultural process—the beet sugar factories—had been allocated to the south and the west. That is a very good reason, I think, for giving the north a chance in respect to this particular experiment. Apart from that the northern counties have specialised in potato production. But I am a little bit at a loss on one point. Perhaps the Minister, from the knowledge acquired by reading up this subject, would be able to explain the difference between myself and Senator Comyn. I have an idea— where I got it from I cannot state— that the potatoes that are suitable for and that are specially desired for use as human food—the light, floury potato that the Senator speaks of as being specially favoured by the people in Kinvara and district—is not the potato that is most useful for the production of industrial alcohol, and that the Continental potatoes are soapy, thick and unpleasant for human food. Those are the potatoes that are mostly grown for this purpose. If that is so, then it will require, I take it, a selection of a special seed for this purpose, just as special seeds are required for the production of the best quality of sugar beet. I should like to know whether the Minister is contemplating any change in the seeds in use in these areas.

Further, there is a statement that I am not able to reconcile with the figures from the agricultural statistics —that is as to the average crops of potatoes of the kind we have been used to producing for food, animal and human. The annual average yields up to 1926 very seldom reached six tons to the acre and were generally round about four and five tons to the acre. The quinquennial averages are generally round about four to five tons per acre in recent years. In the earlier years of the last century— the middle of the last century—the yield was down to two and three tons per acre on the average. That is the average yield of course and it may be that in Monaghan and Donegal the averages are higher in the case of potatoes that usually have been grown there. The Minister will probably be able to tell us whether, in any of the selected parts where the particular kind of potatoes that will be useful for this purpose have been grown, much higher averages have been obtained than five or six tons per acre. I notice that eight tons per acre has been mentioned and even higher than eight tons per acre. That may be possible but I am doubtful whether it is likely to average as high as that until there is a new variety of potatoes sown for this purpose.

When one comes to deal with the variety of potatoes and the yield then one can make some estimate of the possibilities of the return to agriculture and that I assume is really the question that has to be answered —what kind of return is going to be given to the grower of the produce, recognising, of course, that the petrol user, on the one hand, and possibly to same degree the taxpayer—most certainly the petrol user—is going to pay the cost which this experiment as to the future successful use of alcohol will entail. I think it is a desirable experiment. I think it is a desirable that it should be tested over areas in different parts of the country. I do not think the cost that is indicated is very high. Many industrial organisations would be very willing to experiment to the extent of £100,000 if there was a fair prospect of a successful outcome, so that we need not grumble at the projected cost. I think it would have been desirable if we had more precise information as to the possibilities of this scheme laid before us apart from the Minister's speech.

On a point of explanation, my friend seems to suggest that I said that the potatoes in the neighbourhood of Kinvara, where they specialise in potato growing, were floury potatoes. He seemed to argue that, because they are floury, the starch content is low. That is not the case at all. Soapiness in potatoes will result from the class of manure used. If you use seaweed, you are sure to have soapy potatoes. I do know that the sugar content of all crops in that area is higher than in any other part of Ireland.

Like Senator Comyn, I have only one objection to this Bill. That is, that, so far as I heard, no factory is to be reserved for Tipperary. The Minister has, of course, the right to alter his decision as to where the factories will be, and I am sure that he will not forget that there is such a place on the map as Tipperary, whatever about Clare. I think that Senator Comyn, in his remarks about the manufacture of alcohol in Clare, could have given us far more information than he did.

I spoke of Galway.

I think that the Senator was only trying to protect Clare from the reputation of being a bootlegging county. I believe that this is a very necessary measure. For a considerable time, I have been urging various Ministers to make an effort to get back to horses as against automobiles—to develop the use of horses so as to encourage the horse trade and the agricultural industry.

That is not progress.

We have a great number of people like Senator Counihan who, when we talk on the lines I have suggested, speak of "putting back the clock." I am prepared to meet any criticism so far as putting back the clock is concerned because I believe that the only alternative to putting back the clock or getting back to horses is the proposal contained in this Bill— to provide some, at least, of the requirements of the automobile trade within the country. Month after month, an increasing amount of money has been leaving the country for the running of automobiles. In my opinion, we could not continue along those lines and keep on paying out this money indefinitely. I should welcome any measure like this, designed to keep some of that money at home and devote it to some more useful purpose than that to which it has hitherto been devoted.

As the Minister has pointed out, it is not expected that this Bill will absorb a great number of the unemployed. But I suggest that a considerable amount of employment will be given where it is most necessary—in the rural areas. The argument has been used that the price of potatoes for this purpose will be low. I can assure the House that the rural districts would be fighting for one of these factories if they had any chance of getting it and would be quite ready to grow the potatoes at the price suggested. The price of potatoes may not be as good as it has been in years gone by. But when we take into consideration that other agricultural products have fallen in price, it is reasonable to suggest that potatoes can be grown, even at the price suggested in this measure, perhaps more economically than many other agricultural products. There is not much necessity to go into the figures as to the tonnage per acre that can be grown. We all know that, in the case of early potatoes, the crop is far lighter than it is for other classes. We also know that, in districts where they go in for the extensive feeding of potatoes to pigs, they can produce a crop of potatoes which would give the tonnage contemplated by this measure —eight tons per acre. I believe that, with experiments, a greater yield than that could be got.

The Minister says that this Bill represents an experiment. Senator Comyn says it is not an experiment. I am inclined to agree, more or less, with Senator Comyn, because this industry has been tried in other countries and has proved successful. What can be done in other countries, so far as the potato crop is concerned, can certainly be done here. I notice that power is given under one section of the Bill to acquire land compulsorily. I suppose, before we finish, Senator Counihan, as the champion of liberty, will get up and attack that section. If I might make a suggestion to the Minister, it would be that he should consider seriously the taking over of some of the derelict holdings in the country for the purpose of providing potatoes for this experiment, as he described it. We have heard that potatoes cannot be grown economically in some parts of the country. It is quite possible that we shall have some kind of campaign to prevent farmers growing potatoes. I think it is a very sane proposition to put to the Minister that he should take over derelict holdings for the growing of the necessary potatoes. The land is there and is not being used. We cannot, so far, make alcohol or anything else out of the grass. The Minister should take over these derelict holdings, take men off the unemployment assistance lists and put them to work in producing the necessary potatoes. In that way the necessary raw material for this industrial alcohol could be produced on economic lines.

Some people seem to have serious doubts as to the advisability of having an admixture of industrial alcohol in petrol. During the war, when petrol was at a prohibitive price and was hard to get at any price, several people will remember that motors were run in this country practically altogether on paraffin. I myself ran a car for a considerable number of years solely on paraffin. I merely used petrol for starting the car. When it was heated, it ran very well, indeed, on paraffin. Though I have never tried it, I am quite sure that this industrial alcohol will be far superior to paraffin and that the admixture suggested by the Minister will have no detrimental effect whatever. I believe that this measure will do a considerable amount of good in the country. When the Minister has tried this experiment, as he calls it, for a year or two years, with four or five factories, I am sure that we shall have factories in Clare, Tipperary and several other places where the people are very anxious to have factories at present.

In so far as this is an experiment and inasmuch as the amount of money involved is comparatively small, judging by the lavish way money is being spent, I suppose we cannot object to this Bill. However, I do feel, like Senator Johnson, that we might have been told more about the proposal. I feel sure that the Minister has called in advisers and has had reports on this subject from technical people and I think that he should have taken us into his confidence and made these reports available. On the occasion of the introduction of the Shannon Scheme, we saw the reports of the experts.

I should also like to know if the Minister has considered the question of operating this experiment through concessionaires. I know that Senator Quirke and Senator Comyn would not like that suggestion. But if I were going into this proposition, I should seriously consider calling in people like Imperial Chemicals and saying "You are doing this class of work, or a class of work allied to it, all the time. You have highly-paid chemists and experts whom, perhaps, a small State like this could not afford to employ. At what will you operate an experiment of this kind for us?" I am sure that you would get better results in that way than in the way proposed by this Bill. The scheme would also be free from political trammels which, I am sure, the Minister knows any State scheme involves.

I would like the Minister to say whether he has considered that. I fail to see why an experiment on the scale indicated is necessary. Surely the quality of the potatoes is a matter of analysis. Why should not one of these distilleries alone be sufficient instead of establishing four? I do not want to be sinister in my suggestion, but I cannot help feeling that there is a certain amount of political flag-wagging in this and of saying to people, "You are all going to get one," although I observe that Tipperary and Clare are still not provided for. The sum involved in this is £100,000. Perhaps it is cheap at the price in order to get experience, although in face of the figures given by Senator Guinness I should be inclined to doubt whether it is worth going on with at all.

There is one matter that I think is important as well as practical in dealing with a Bill of this kind. It was the statement of the Minister that the financial provisions were simple. I suggest that they are too simple. There are no accounts going to be published. We are to be given just the total sum of money put into this and the surplus coming out of it. I am sure the Minister will have regard to the suggestion that there should be a profit and loss account published. If there is nothing coming out of it, what does anybody know except that there has been a loss. I think that the House and the public ought to know the measure of the loss and what it is costing. I think that we ought to have in the case of all State schemes a profit and loss account. In the Bill dealing with the slaughter of cattle, power is taken by the Minister to publish a profit and loss account and to issue a balance sheet and all the rest of it in connection with any enterprise that he may engage in. I submit that in this case there should be a profit and loss account published as well as the usual returns. I intend to put down an amendment to that effect for the Committee Stage of the Bill. There is one other matter that I would like the Minister to bear in mind. Frankly, I am terribly afraid of the sort of spirit running through the speeches of Senator Quirke and Senator Comyn, that these uneconomic schemes will be foisted on the country merely on account of their national value and regardless altogether of their cost.

Who said so?

That is my interpretation of the Senator's speech.

I am afraid the Senator has misunderstood me. My suggestion was this: that where a man had a farm which he held himself and could not make pay, a farm which was of no use to him so that he could not pay his land annuities or his rates, and that alongside of it you had the Government paying men home assistance, you should relieve him of his farm and the Government of the necessity of paying people home assistance and unemployment money by putting those people to work on that farm to produce potatoes.

That is quite satisfactory for my purposes. It confirms the point that I was trying to make that all these schemes should be influenced by their direct advantages. Anyone who had to make a living out of a scheme such as this naturally would not have regard for a moment to such considerations as the Senator has just mentioned. There is a danger of the State getting into schemes of various kinds and supporting itself with that class of argument about derelict farms and mixing them up with the relief of unemployment and so on. I feel there is a great danger that these schemes are being pushed forward on an unsound basis on account of political sentiment and their indirect effect on employment and so on. I would ask the Minister to have regard to this, that we do not get this alcohol foisted on us as the tobacco scheme has been. It should not be foisted on us without some independent report and investigation.

I know from experience as an ordinary traveller in France that while you can buy the mixture there the stuff is certainly inferior and involves additional expense in the upkeep of a car. You have to pay a higher price for it than for petrol. I hope the Minister will meet us to this extent, that before he considers forcing the mixture on the public he will have a full investigation made by an independent body like the Fuel Research Board or the Automobile Association so that we may know what the effect of the use of it on the upkeep of different classes of cars is likely to be. If we do use it, having that report before us, we shall at least be using it with our eyes open. What I am afraid of is that the whole tendency of this policy is to force on us in the national interest the second best. I do not think it is fair to the people who can afford to buy the better article and wish to get value for their money. I do not think it is fair to force them to buy the second best, or to make them pay an inordinate price for what they want. If power is going to be taken to force this mixture on the public, then the Minister should take steps to get an independent report of experiments carried out with it, and let the public know what they are getting.

I read the debate that took place in the Dáil on this Bill, and as far as I can gather, the figures that the Minister gave here to-day are not quite the same as the figures he gave in the Dáil. He said there that he was counting on using 25,000 tons of potatoes between all the distilleries, and that the price of the potatoes would be 35/- per ton. Senator Guinness pointed out that unless the alcohol is to be produced at an entirely uneconomic price to the users, the price for the potatoes cannot be more than £1 a ton. I think that before the House agrees to pass this Bill it should have a great deal more information about this mixture. At the moment we are very much in the dark about it. Senator Sir John Keane said that we are being rushed into this. I fear that we are being kept deliberately in the dark. This is to be another experiment at the expense of the taxpayers. Senator Quirke said that the experiments carried out in other countries had proved that the production of industrial alcohol had been made a great success. That is not so at all. The experiments carried out in other countries were not a success but a failure. The Minister was asked in the Dáil why he did not pay some attention to an article that appeared in Studies. It was written by a professor in Cork University, who had carried out experiments over a period of 18 years. At the end of that time he came to this conclusion:—

"My first impulse was to judge the whole product as so unfeasible as not to warrant further consideration. My opinion was based not on any doubt regarding the scientific aspect of the problem, which is perfectly straightforward, but on the cost of the product."

The Minister seems not to have considered that at all. When he was questioned about it he would not say whether he had given any attention to that article or not.

Will the Senator continue to read the article, and the conclusions that the professor came to.

The magazine in which the article appeared was published and a great many of us have read it.

Hear, hear.

I think the Senator should read the concluding part of the article.

Senator Guinness made a most valuable contribution to the debate on this Bill. He told us of what had happened in other countries in regard to the growing of potatoes. The Minister, in support of the Bill, is basing his arguments on a very high starch content—18 per cent—in the potatoes and of getting eight tons to the acre. My father specialised for many years in the growing of potatoes. He purchased the most expensive manures and pursued the highest type of cultivation, and yet he rarely reached eight tons to the acre. If a man gets five tons he is very well satisfied.

These are table potatoes.

No potatoes can be grown with any success unless with good cultivation and expensive manures. These manures the farmers are not buying, as can be seen by the amount sold by the factories, for the best of all reasons—that they have not the money to buy them. The acreage under potatoes is down by 2,000 this year as the result of poor prices and the inability of the farmers to buy manures. One of the reasons why farmers took up the growing of beet at the very uneconomic price of 30/- per ton was that the factory advances £5 per acre for the buying of manures. That is very attractive. Otherwise, farmers would not be able to grow beet—could not do it—because they have no ready money and their credit is gone. Will the Minister tell us if these distilleries when established will advance the money to the growers of potatoes to enable them to buy manure, as the Carlow beet factory has done from the beginning?

If the farmer's credit is gone, how is he able to borrow £5 per acre on his crop?

At the end of the campaign, when the accounts between the factory and the farmer are being settled up, the factory charges him the interest. He borrows from the factory and they take the interest out of the payment for his crop.

Why not?

Acting Chairman

This not germane to the Bill.

The Senator thinks the farmer goes in to the bank and borrows it. Not at all.

How to fertilisers cost £5 per acre?

That is for fertilisers. The manures necessary for potatoes and beet are very expensive—the most expensive kinds of manure, like sulphate of ammonia and nitrate of soda. All these very expensive manures are necessary to produce anything like an economic crop. The wonder is that the acreage has not gone down by a great deal more than 2,000. Senator Comyn made an extraordinary statement about the effect of seaweed on potatoes. I live in a district where for centuries seaweed has been used as a top-dressing in the cultivation of potatoes before the land is ploughed. This particular place produces even in wet seasons an exceptionally good floury potato. The valuable constituent in seaweed is the potash, which is necessary for potatoes. It is also used in the cultivation of beet, but it is not so necessary.

I think Senator Johnson is right about the type of potato—that a totally different type of potato will have to be grown for this. I am not sure about this, but I think he is right about the soapy kind being the most valuable for the starch content. With regard to the wash, I wonder will that be taken. Of course a halfpenny per gallon is very small if these figures turn out all right. It happens that a large amount of molasses pulp is available to the farmers from the beet factory and it is being given back to the farmers free, except for the cost of carriage. Many farmers will not use it themselves and there will be a large amount of it on the market. The Beet Growers' Association is undertaking the marketing of it. I certainly prefer that to this wash for dairy cows, as it is a very valuable food for them. It is not so good for fattening cattle, but it is particularly good for dairy cows. I wonder, therefore, if there will be a market for this wash.

It is a drink.

It is a food.

It is food and drink. I know quite well what it is. Senator Quirke said that the Government should take some of this land that the farmers are constantly saying they cannot make pay and which they certainly cannot make pay. We have been inviting the Minister for Agriculture to do that for a long time. There are any amount of farmers asking him to take over their farms and work them and make them pay; but he takes very good care not to give any answer. We would be delighted to see the Minister for Industry and Commerce taking over farms and conscripting the unemployed and paying them. Are we to understand they are to get the amount of the unemployment assistance, 6/- per week, for their labour?

For their vote.

Even the vote will be doubtful in that case. Will the Labour Party agree to the conscription of labour which, of course, it must be?

The Labour Party will not agree to conscript women.

Will the Minister take up this offer of Senator Quirke's? We would be delighted to see him doing it. It will relieve the State of the cost of unemployment assistance and we shall see how he makes it pay. He has tried all his experiments on the dog so far, otherwise the farmer. This is another fantastic thing at the expense of the taxpayer and the consumer, if it ever materialises. Instead of the system which had evolved out of the long experience of the farmers we must have all these side issues to divert the people's minds and catch their votes for a little longer, as long as it will last.

I cannot see any reason why Senator Comyn and Senator Quirke should get so excited over this Bill. Every speaker up to the present has approved of the experiment which the Minister proposes to carry out for the production of industrial alcohol. The only objection raised was that the amount might not be so large. That was only raised by Senator Milroy. I agree with Senator Milroy. We all approve of the experiment, but I think that it could be carried out and tested for a lesser amount than £100,000. I do not know anything about the production of alcohol, either industrial or otherwise, but I know something about potatoes and cattle and pigs.

I was very much struck by the figures given by Senator Guinness, who stated that potatoes should be bought at £1 per ton to produce alcohol at 1/- a gallon. Anything more than 1/- per gallon for alcohol at first cost would be prohibitive. It is being imported at present at 4d. per gallon, I think. Potatoes are worth more than £1 per ton for feeding cattle and pigs. Of course, it all depends on the price of other foodstuffs, but in normal times the Department of Agriculture reckon potatoes to be worth £2 per ton as a food for pigs. That, of course, depends on the price of corn, Indian meal, cake and other foodstuffs being normal. In some cases they would be worth more, according to the price which the other foodstuffs would be making. That should be taken into consideration by the Minister when he is finally deciding on establishing these factories for the production of industrial alcohol. A good deal has been said about the potatoes which are suitable for the production of industrial alcohol. I think that could be settled by a greater expert than Senator Comyn. The amount of potatoes produced per acre would average about eight tons. If all the potatoes which Senator Comyn says will be used by the factories are taken into consideration, we could produce possibly nine tons to the acre. That is a consideration. We must take into account the cost of producing an acre of potatoes.

Is that an Irish acre?

No, a statute acre. A lot will depend on the price of labour. In a normal year an acre will produce eight tons, but an acre will not produce that quantity this year. The price of potatoes differs in accordance with the return of the crop. In a good year you will have, perhaps, more than twice the return as in a year that would not be so suitable. I think Senator Wilson will agree with that statement, and he knows more about potato production than any other Senator. The cost of producing potatoes was reckoned some years ago at £25 an Irish acre. For a statute acre the cost of production would be £15. If you can get labour in County Tipperary at 15/- a week the cost of production would not be so much. At the normal rate, paying a living wage, the cost of production would be £15.

If it cost even half of that it would be a good sound price for it.

If it takes £15 to produce eight tons of potatoes, I think that will leave the petrol to be produced from the crop at about 2/- per gallon. I know very little about the alcohol end.

I was surprised to hear Senators discussing acres of potatoes when it is evident it is the man with the small area of potatoes whom the Government are seeking to subsidise. It would be much fairer, if they want votes, to subsidise Jameson to give a gallon of good alcohol in return for them. It might make up in some measure for the loss of such a great industry as that of Messrs. Guinness, largely through the economic excursions of the Government. I understand one alcohol-producing plant is to be in a Minister's constituency in order to get rid of the scab potatoes there. It would be a sorry thing if every member of the Government had to have an industrial plant of a similar type manufacturing support for him. Donegal and Louth are to be the sites of these stills. What is to be done when the industrial alcohol is made? There is no petrol engine that will use it. What is to be done with the land when it is reduced in value by the production of large quantities of potatoes? So far as I can see, the whole thing will not be economical. It will reduce things to an impossible stage, because it cannot be made pay.

There was an experiment carried out once and it may be of interest if I refer to it. It was not run by this Government or by the last Government; it was run by a Government almost as philanthropically minded. There was a little wood near Mount Bellew. It was an excellent wood and they thought it would make wonderful boxes for transporting things about. They needed a steam engine. They sent down the steam engine, and a year afterwards they sent down an inspector. When he arrived the wood had disappeared and there were no boxes. He asked the people in the district what had happened, and they told him that it took all the wood to keep the engine going. In this instance you will have your potatoes and your alcohol, but you will get no industrial return.

In the Cooley area of Louth potatoes have been produced for generations in a very luxuriant and abundant manner. At the moment there is no market for these people in which to sell their potatoes, because it is a black scab area. They are not allowed to sell them here. These people will not feed pigs. This problem has been considered for several years past. I think it is an excellent idea if the Government put a factory there and utilise the potatoes for producing industrial alcohol. I believe that it is in that area the experiment will have its greatest chance of success. There are any amount of potatoes sold in County Dublin for 1/- a cwt. Where a man has 20 acres of potatoes all the small ones are sold at 1/-. Year after year small potatoes are sold in County Dublin to pig feeders at that price. The other potatoes fetch from 2/6 to 6/- a cwt. I do not see why any farmer should object to this proposition. As Senator Quirke said, hitherto we had to supply oats and hay to the horses and now that is altered by the introduction of the engine. If we can feed the engine we will be probably getting back to where we were before. If you can supply the engine with motive power from the land, I think that is all in the right direction. As regards the high starch content in our potatoes we may be able to improve it and perhaps give employment at not too costly a price to the State. The fact is that we are consuming our own products and we are not importing. There is a good deal to be said for the experiment and, as a farmer, I am not going to oppose anything that will give work and at the same time have a chance of success.

At a guaranteed price.

Yes. The price of 25/- a ton is not so bad. I believe that potatoes will give a much higher starch content than 18 per cent. if the right variety is planted.

When the Minister comes to reply will he let the House know how this experiment, if it is successful, will possibly affect the Drumm battery? I have heard a great deal about and indeed I have had ocular evidence of the Drumm battery. The one may affect the other and the same amount of return may not be got from the alcohol experiment if the Drumm battery is a success. Both are national industries and it would be interesting to know how the one may affect the other. I would like to know also what is the exact position of the Drumm battery at present.

I have here figures showing the yield of potatoes per acre in Great Britain and Ireland for several years. It is contained in the Third Memorandum of the Fuel and Motor Transport pamphlet issued by the Research Board. In England, between the years 1914 and 1923, the average yield per acre was 5.7 tons; in Ireland, between the years 1917 and 1923, the average yield per acre was 4.90 tons per statute acre. The report says that the average yield where potatoes were specially planted for many years for the production of industrial alcohol was somewhere about five tons per statute acre. It is notable that the average yield in Ireland was only 4.90, which is lower than that of Great Britain.

I ask the Minister whether he has any information to give regarding the production of yeast from potatoes. Many distillers producing alcohol have found yeast is more profitable than alcohol. Alcohol is regarded, in some cases, as a by-product, whereas the yeast pays for the concern and the capital. I wonder whether the Minister has any information upon that subject. Another point upon which I would like some information is this: Distilleries will only be in use for a certain time of the year for industrial alcohol purposes. Would it be possible to use them in the off-season for producing alcohol from other substances, possibly corn, and also producing yeast?

Various matters have been raised in the course of this discussion which have a direct bearing on the matter we are considering. A number of other matters raised were of questionable relevancy although they may have had some bearing upon the matter. I have been asked if we could not undertake those experiments on a smaller scale than is contemplated, having regard to the fact that it is an experiment and that its results may not be satisfactory. That would not be possible. The scale on which we have undertaken experiments is the smallest that offers any prospect of success. It is true that we are operating a number of separate distilleries, and that each will have for its purpose a separate unit, but they are all combined in one scheme in so far as consideration has to be given to one dehydrating plant where the product is finally prepared for use. The alternative was to have one distillery and dehydrating plant dealing with about 28,000 tons of potatoes, as against four or five distilleries dealing with comparatively small quantities of potatoes but each associated with a dehydrating plant dealing with the production of all. Certain views have been pronounced, obviously with the view of prejudicing this experiment by the quotation from garbled statements or articles written in certain periodicals. These garbled statements were quoted here apparently from the quotations made in the Dáil. The quotations made in the Dáil were very unscrupulous and I assume that those who used the quotations here did not read the original articles in question but were confined in their quotations to the Dáil reports. Otherwise they would have given honest quotations. Senators will be glad to hear that the person who wrote the article from which quotations were made is a member of our advisory committee, and is at present visiting Germany and other countries where industrial alcohol is produced. In his last article he has expressed the opinion that he is satisfied that we can make industrial alcohol in this country much better than any other country in Europe.

I hope we shall see his report.

I am not responsible for any report being made public, but he has consented to act as a member of our advisory committee. I suggest to Senator Miss Browne that she should read the article in Studies. In this case she puts herself in the position of those people in the Dáil who gave quotations by which they were obviously trying to deceive the House as to what the opinion of the writer was.

The cost of the scheme will be, roughly, £100,000. That will be the initial cost, but in subsequent years it is anticipated that revenue will meet outgoings and that no extra sum will fall upon the Exchequer. There will be appropriations-in-aid resulting from the sale of the products and the one will balance the other. It will be easy to do that inasmuch as we will have the power to compel the petrol refiners to purchase the spirit and use it. The Minister will have to account for the cost of the scheme to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who will make annual reports upon the receipts and expenditure and upon any matters that may arise out of the receipts and expenditure of the scheme. In addition, Section 17 of the Bill requires the Minister for Industry and Commerce to submit an annual report to the Oireachtas, and, of course, it will be open to the Dáil to require full information concerning the scheme when the annual Vote comes up. It has been urged in various quarters that we should have devised another scheme than that contemplated in the Bill, and established a statutory board with funds under its own control, which could act independently of the Dáil and not be under the supervision that the scheme will be as it is now proposed to be operated. At a later stage, if the experiment is successful, and it is desired to extend these factories, we may contemplate setting up a board, such as the Electricity Supply Board; but at present we think it is better to have direct Ministerial control and responsibility. We considered the possibility of having the work undertaken by concessionaires, but we thought it better not. Any firm such as that mentioned by Senator Sir John Keane would require guarantees and experiments would have to be conducted within a certain time to secure against loss of all kinds. The particular manner in which we have undertaken to develop is likely to prove the cheapest upon the Exchequer whether the scheme is a success or a failure.

Senator Guinness gave us certain figures and said that the calculation of the committee whose report he quoted from was that the relation between the price paid for potatoes and the price at which industrial alcohol could be produced for sale was £1 per ton in relation to 1/- per gallon. I do not contest that figure at all. In fact, I think that if we succeed in maintaining it, the experiment will have been successful. In other words, if we can sell industrial alcohol at 2/- a gallon, paying £2 a ton for potatoes, the experiment will have been more successful than my opening remarks would indicate. Whether that will prove to be so or not is what we are trying to find out.

It is true that the production of industrial alcohol is not economic in the strict sense, any more than the production of beet sugar from beet is economic in the strict sense. However, it has been adopted by many countries from the broad point of view of national economic development and, perhaps, also for purposes of national defence. What we have to bear in mind is that in the development of such enterprises the whole trend has been to take into account other considerations than those of the accountant in determining whether projects of this nature should be embarked upon, and the sole purpose of the experiment was to find out whether the sum of all the benefits to be derived outweighs the financial disadvantage involved. There are, of course, commercial uses for industrial alcohol which appear to be increasing. Senator Comyn, however, seemed to give an indication that this industrial alcohol might have a use which we did not contemplate, when he bracketed it with patent still whiskey. This industrial alcohol, as such, is not capable of human consumption, I understand, although it has been alleged that certain of the liqueurs for which high prices are paid consist merely of industrial alcohol with a little flavouring.

Whether potatoes with a high starch content are floury or not, or have other distinctive qualities, I do not know. My experience has been that the appearance of the potato was due to the art of the cook, but I profess to be entirely ignorant about potatoes —how they are grown or how one determines the starch content from their appearance. In fact, if Senator Miss Browne assured me that they were grown on trees I would not have the courage to contradict her. Certain statements have been made about the yield of the potatoes per acre. Certain people, who have gone into the matter with considerable care, have expressed and always have expressed considerable doubt as to the accuracy of our statistics in relation to yields per acre and whether or not the average figure which is published in the book of statistics is the correct average figure or not. It is liable to lead people into wrong conclusions. The fact is that we have got to consider not what is the over-all average for Ireland in relation to this industry, but the yields which have been attained and are being attained in the areas where these distilleries are going to operate. Senators will know that I gave in the Dáil the figures for 1932 which was a fairly good year in those areas. In County Louth the average yield as shown in the statistics was ten tons per acre and in County Donegal 10.3 tons per acre. It is quite possible that the actual yield may have been higher than these figures would indicate. It is correct that one must be very careful in arriving at conclusions based on these figures, or on the average prices as published.

Industrial alcohol distillers can use all the produce taken out of the ground, whether suitable for human consumption or not—big potatoes or small potatoes—but these average prices are only related to potatoes suitable for sale for human consumption. The price also varies from year to year, of course. One can never tell what the yield is going to be, and the season, the acreage sown, and all the rest of it, fix the price, because there are a number of factors which make it a crop, the price of which can fluctuate very considerably from year to year.

Senator Miss Browne, however, apparently assumed that the low price which potatoes are fetching now, and are likely to fetch, is due in some way to the Government. Of course I know that certain Senators feel that they must blame the Government for all faults, but I would like to inform Senator Miss Browne what the average prices of potatoes were in the two areas where we propose to establish those distilleries during the year when the best of all possible Governments was in office here. In 1929 the average price obtained by growers in the Cooley area for selected potatoes was 17/6 a ton.

They were sold in Wexford the same year for £4.

In 1932 the price in that area was 21/- and in 1933 the price moved up to 34/- a ton. That was the average price in the Cooley area in that year. The price obtained in Donegal in 1932 for various varieties of potatoes was as follows: For a variety known as Up-to-Date the price averaged between 17/6 and 33/4. One was the lowest price and the other the highest price. For Kerr's Pink the price averaged the same, and in the case of Arran Banner the price was from 15/- to 25/-. In 1933 the prices were somewhat higher, but the average price was well below 35/- in each case for each variety.

That was for selected potatoes?

Yes, for selected potatoes. I mention these figures to indicate that there is no reason to anticipate that at the price I have mentioned any difficulty will be experienced in obtaining a supply. We have no reason to think that it will not be possible to get farmers to grow very willingly all the potatoes we require at the price we contemplate paying.

Senator Gogarty said that we will get the potatoes and the alcohol but that we will not get an industrial return. I wrote that down when he said it and I have been trying to find out its sense or meaning since. The Senator is supposed to be a wit and, as one Senator laughed at what he said, I presume that statement must be witty but I do not know what it means. He also implied that the whole purpose of the scheme was to buy votes and suggested that we could buy the vote of any farmer by giving him a gallon of whiskey. Senator Milroy laughed at that particular remark, so I presume that also was witty. That is the type of remark that used to be made about 50 years ago. I think that Senator Gogarty has the copyright of that particular type of slander against the Irish people. We do not mind him abusing the Government but we object to him abusing the country and the people. However, nobody takes him seriously. In case they do take him seriously, I suggest that he or other Senators should not bring in the names of industrial concerns for the purpose of scoring off the Government. Senator Gogarty said that the firm of Guinness, which is and will continue to be of very great importance to this country, had decided to change its methods of production because of the activities of the Government. I would point out to him and other Senators that that statement is not true and that it has not been made by members of the firm and that the making of such statements by him might react against the interests of that firm and consequently against the interests of the country. I think that we might keep remarks of that kind out of the sphere of political controversy that Senator Gogarty engages in.

I am afraid that I cannot say what the effects of this particular scheme on the successful development of the Drumm battery will be. As far as that goes, I see where some French engineer has succeeded in developing power out of sea water at a nominal cost, but if we were to go on the assumption that because somebody might find a better or cheaper method of producing an article we should not embark on certain industrial enterprises, there would be no progress.

You have got to take these risks and it is quite possible the French engineer may find some flaw in this system. On the other hand, the development of the Drumm battery can take place without any diminution whatever in the consumption of petrol here. It has certain definite characteristics and it provides for and can cater for transport of a definite kind. But unless it is developed considerably beyond its present stage and unless some new factor comes into the picture, it is not likely to be able to replace entirely the ordinary combustion engine now used for transport purposes. Senator Sir Coey Bigger asks certain questions which I would not like to attempt to answer because this is a matter which we undertake by way of experiment. What the outcome of that experiment is I do not know, and I would not like to offer information, particularly in this case, upon matters on which my personal information would not be of any value. But we are hoping that the development of this and similar industries which involve the employment of chemists will create possibilities of production and development of various kinds that have not been explored up to the present. It has been the general characteristic of all chemical industries that their ultimate and full development cannot be forecasted, because new developments and new possibilities of production are being created every day, and it is not at all impossible that the development of this industry in the experimental stage which we contemplate, even though it may not be fully successful on the basis that we contemplate operating, may nevertheless have a future for it upon other bases which may emerge at some moment.

I just want to say that it is not quite fair for the Minister to take as an example the Cooley district. Some Senator said that they would sell potatoes there at any price because they will not feed pigs with them. In my county, Wexford, which is one of the greatest pig feeding counties in the country, no farmer would ever think of offering or selling potatoes at 15/- or 17/- or at even £1 a ton. I know that in Wexford potatoes were shipped at from £3 to £4 a ton. Even at the present price of pigs, potatoes would be the cheapest food, but we would not sell them to anybody at £1 a ton.

It is in the Cooley district we are proposing to establish these factories, and not in County Wexford.

For which I am truly thankful.

I want to make a personal explanation. The Minister stated that some of my quotations were garbled. I made quotations from two or three sources and I very much regret that the Minister should think that I made quotations of a garbled kind. One of the authorities from which I took my quotation was the report of the Fuel Research Committee and I quoted from a number of articles that appeared in the accounts. I think that can hardly be fairly described as garbled.

When I used the word "garbled" I referred to the garbled quotations given in the Dáil, and not to the quotations given by Senator Guinness.

I understood the reference was made to the quotations made by me here.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage fixed for Thursday, 30th August, 1934.

Perhaps I should say in connection with the Bills in to-day's and yesterday's Order Papers that as far as the Committee Stage of Bills fixed for next Wednesday is concerned, the amendments must be handed in before 4 o'clock on Monday.

With regard to the Cattle and Sheep Slaughter Bill, I want to say that I did not have time to consider the Bill or to prepare amendments for the Committee Stage. I wonder would you fix the Committee Stage of that Bill for Thursday, as the Second Reading was only carried yesterday?

Acting Chairman

I am afraid if that is done the agenda for Thursday will be overloaded, because we will have the Control of Manufactures Bill on Thursday.

There might be a little latitude in the matter of handing in amendments.

Acting Chairman

When the amendments have to be printed there is very little time. If the Cathaoirleach were here I would have made the suggestion that typescript amendments would be accepted. However, I suppose we may as well leave things as they are. The Industrial Alcohol Bill has occupied a good deal of time. Alcohol is notorious for the production of talk, but I did not think the "external association" of alcohol would have been so productive of talk. It has now been proposed that we adjourn until 2 o'clock.

The Seanad adjourned at 1.7 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.

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