Vol. 19 No. 10
I move:—
That, in view of the great and increasing dangers in the streets of Dublin to children and young people and the lack of open spaces, the Seanad is of the opinion that it is desirable that steps be taken to make all the squares of the city available as public parks and playgrounds.
On a point of order, I suggest that this motion should be ruled out of order. It submits to the Seanad for consideration a matter that is primarily the concern of the Dublin Corporation and has no more to do with the work of this House than it has to the lighting of the streets in Ballyjamesduff. I suggest than an elementary sense of proportion or conception of what the duties and powers of this House are, would cause this motion to be ruled out of order. I suggest to Senator Moore, himself, if the motion is not ruled out of order, that he should, from a sense of the responsibility and dignity of the House not bring forward a motion of this kind, the passing or rejection of which would make no difference whatever.
I do not think I can rule the motion out of order, but I am sure Senator Moore will give consideration to what the Senator has said.
I confess I do not understand what the Senator's objection is. This House sits constantly and in it are moved resolutions that affect all sorts of people and places, private and public. This motion certainly affects a lot of people—in fact the whole of Dublin. I do not understand the objection. Moreover it is rather astonishing coming from the quarter it does. If I am not out of order, I shall certainly continue with my motion.
Please continue, Senator, if you so desire.
I see no reason why I should not. This motion has been on the Order paper for a good many months but did not come up for discussion for various reasons. One was that there was a printing strike which delayed it for some time. Then the Seanad sometimes was not sitting, so it was put off from time to time. The motion can be shortly described as a recommendation to the Government to take whatever steps may be necessary to open the public squares in Dublin, so that they may be made available as playgrounds for children, and, afford fresh air for the public generally. Some of these squares were railed in about 130 years ago, others at a date of which I am not sure, but more or less about that time. They were railed in not to please the public, or for hygienic purposes but for the convenience of those people who had houses round these squares. These reasons have fallen through as time went on. The people for whom these squares were laid out have moved away from these places in recent years to the suburbs and the country, and the seashore in search of still more hygienic places. The result is that these squares have been to a certain extent neglected. As a matter of fact, they are almost entirely deserted at the present time. If any curious person were to visit one of these squares to-day and peep through the bushes, he might expect to see people amusing themselves in them, but he would see nothing of that sort. The most that would be seen would be a nursery maid wheeling a perambulator. I doubt that two would be seen. Outside these squares would be seen mothers with their poor children sitting with their backs to the railings and hoping that their children would not rush into the roadway and get run over by passing traffic. These mothers would be seen sitting like the Peri at the gates of Paradise, unable to get in and unable to get anywhere else while the squares themselves are empty and used for no purpose whatever.
In the old days children were able to use the streets a great deal for play, because there was no such thing as omnibuses. There were horse-drawn vehicles, cars and carriages, moving at a rate of seven or eight miles an hour at the outset, and of little or no danger to children, who could easily avoid them. Now the condition of affairs is entirely different. We have buses travelling at 40 and 50 miles an hour through the streets and motor cars trying to pass them at a high rate of speed, with the result that children are run over. There may be other ways of helping, but I think it is a good thing to have children in places where they can play in safety and get rest.
Senator Brown mentioned to me some places like these squares that are under better control and open to children, with the result that hundreds of people can use them and enjoy themselves. That is what I would like to see those squares used for. In my young days, people occupying houses round these squares used the squares. Now there are very few such people living there. Some of the houses are occupied by the poorest of the poor and have become slums. Are we to allow these few squares—and there are not half enough of them—to be squandered, as it were, or to be used for one nursery maid and three or four persons instead of the whole population of Dublin?
The whole population will benefit through the opening of these squares. I think we ought to do something to achieve that purpose. Long ago in all countries the people did not think much of hygienic matters, but now they have come to recognise the importance of hygiene and they value open spaces. The more open spaces that can be availed of in our cities, the better. In all the suburbs of London they have huge open spaces. There are very few Londoners, except those living in the heart of the city, who have not places near at hand to move about in. The more fresh air the people get the healthier they are. England has got thoroughly mechanised and many of the people live for a great part of their time in the factories. The result is that large numbers of the English people have become a C 3 people, dwarfed and sickly. Open spaces would be invaluable to those people. At one time it was my duty to inspect volunteers and I observed the great difference in the physique of the volunteers in Belfast and the volunteers in Connaught and Munster. We ought to see that the best use is made of the city squares. I believe that plans for the carrying out of big improvements in Dublin have been drawn up. I hope that this proposal and the discussion on it will induce the Government to take the matter up and carry into effect this very desirable improvement, and I am sure the citizens will be very glad to take advantage of it.
[The Leas-Chathaoirleach took the Chair.]
Ag aontú leis an rún, ba mhaidh liom a rádh go bhfuil gádh mór leis na cearnóga d'oscailt do sna páistíbh óga ach tá eagla orm nach ró-fhuiriste é do dhéanamh, dá mhór é an gádh. I desire to second Senator Colonel Moore's motion. I wish to say that it is very necessary and desirable to open these squares. They should be thrown open at the earliest moment for the children in the more populous areas throughout the city. This is chiefly a question for Dublin City. There are four squares in the city to which this resolution would apply. These squares are Fitzwilliam Square, Merrion Square, Rutland Square and Mountjoy Square. So far as Fitzwilliam Square is concerned, it is largely a residential area and possibly the necessity for throwing it open is not as great as it would be if it were a square converging on a populous, congested area. Merrion Square is convenient to a very populous district. Down Holles Street and on down to the Liffey it is a congested area. It would be very nice if Merrion Square could be opened for the children living around that area. I suppose you are all aware that it is contemplated to utilise that square in the near future as a site for a Catholic cathedral. I understand the lease of the square will expire in 1938, so that four years hence it may possibly be turned over to other hands. In the meantime, it would be a very good thing if the square were thrown open for the use of the children, who may be seen sitting around gazing into its open spaces but who, at the moment, have no right to breathe God's pure air or get God's sunshine inside its railings.
Now we come to Parnell Square. That is also converging on a very populous area. You have Dominick Street, Dorset Street and Parnell Street and other areas around where there are large numbers of children. It is sad to see them shut out from these open spaces. There is a rather serious matter in connection with the Parnell Square site. I understand that the charter of the hospital forbids the hospital authorities to utilise the space for the purpose mentioned in Senator Moore's motion. If my information is correct, I believe that Parnell Square is shortly going to be used in a manner which possibly will have to be dealt with in another place. I understand it is contemplated that a laundry is to be erected on the west side of Parnell Square and in connection with that laundry there is going to be a very large and unsightly chimney constructed. I have seen the plans of it. Further, I understand there is to be another building in front of the Art Gallery on the north side and a building also on the Cavendish Row side. This will mean the shutting in of the whole square and it certainly will not add in any way to the amenities of the locality.
Now we come to Mountjoy Square, which is possibly in the most populous district of all. Most of the people in the city are aware of the very large numbers of tenement dwellers in the vicinity of Mountjoy Square. Unfortunately, the square itself is fast developing into a tenement area. The municipal council have been negotiating with the Commissioners of Mountjoy Square in connection with the opening of it. I happened to be a member of a sub-committee requested to deal with the matter and we recommended the taking over of the whole square, but the Commissioners did not wish to throw open the whole square. However, I think it will be possible to negotiate with them for the opening of half the square, and I think it will be opened in the near future. We know the necessity for opening those squares is great. Those of us who live in the confines of the city, know the desperate dangers of the streets, know the desperate speed of motor cars. In years gone by, if a hackney car driver drove his horse at an unreasonable pace in the city he was brought into court for reckless or furious driving, driving to the danger of the public. We do not hear of many of those cases being brought into court now in connection with either the furious or reckless driving of motor cars. The streets are in a very dangerous condition for young children, and I think that most people will admit that it is hardly in keeping with modern democratic ideas to have these squares railed in and to have both the young and the old gazing in through the railings.
As one of the municipal representatives, I feel very thankful to Senator Colonel Moore for his interest in this matter. I may add, before concluding, that in the municipal housing schemes provision is being made for playgrounds for children in all those schemes and that in the flat-dwellings scheme there is a courtyard provided also where children can play. I wish to inform the House, and particularly Senator Colonel Moore, that the local authority is not at all neglecting its duty in this desirable direction. I sincerely hope that this motion will not be looked upon as a Party issue, but as one that should appeal to all commonsense members in this House, and that something may materialise from it in the desired direction.
I regret that Senator Colonel Moore did not adopt the suggestion made to him by Senator O'Farrell and decided to persist with this motion. I agree with Senator O'Farrell that this is not a matter for this House. It is a matter in which the initiative ought to have been taken, if at all, by the Corporation, and not by this House. I am prepared, however, to take this motion on its merits, and as if it really had merits. I take it that Senator Colonel Moore's motion only means the squares in the old City of Dublin and not the squares in the suburbs, such as Kenilworth Square, Belgrave Square, and so on, which are situated in neighbourhoods where the children for whom Senator Colonel Moore wants open-air playgrounds do not live. Assuming that this motion is confined to the squares in the city, there are only two squares in this city to which the motion really does apply. Those are Fitzwilliam Square and Mountjoy Square.
We all know the present legal position of Merrion Square. The present lease to the Commissioners will expire, I think, in five years—about 1939—and the persons who are interested in the erection of the great cathedral, that we all hope to see in this city, have got what is practically a legal contract for the purchase, in perpetuity, of that square. There was a time when it was hoped that that square would be turned into a public park as a war memorial. As a matter of fact, the trustees of the war memorial fund actually got leave from the Courts— they had to get it—to expend the very large sum which they had collected for turning that square into a public park. They would have had to apply for a private Act of Parliament for that purpose. However, there were objections made to it on behalf of the Government which could not be very well contested, and that project fell through. The present position of Merrion Square, however, makes the provisions of this motion inapplicable to it. If it is made the site of the cathedral, which we all hope it will, I have no doubt that it will be made open to the public, but one can hardly imagine it as a playground in such circumstances. At all events, it will be open to the public. For practical purposes, therefore, Merrion Square is out of the picture so far as this motion is concerned.
Fitzwilliam Square is a comparatively small square. There is room for four tennis courts in it with a very beautiful sod of grass. I was Commissioner there for nearly a quarter of a century, so I should know all about it. If that square were to be made a public playground for poor children, it would absolutely ruin the amenities of the square and of the neighbouring streets, the residents of which pay a small sum of two guineas a year for its use. If it were necessary to throw it open in order to give a playground to poor children, I would say: "sacrifice even that"; but it is not necessary. The poor children who would be likely to use Fitzwilliam Square are, every one of them, within easy distance of that magnificent garden, St. Stephen's Green—one of the finest and most beautiful gardens that I know of in any city, and I know plenty of them. They are within 100 yards of the gate of St. Stephen's Green and the area in which they live is not a very slum area. Accordingly, so far as Fitzwilliam Square is concerned, I think that it is absolutely unnecessary that it should be opened. It would be very little good to open it. It would hold very few of these children, as it is a small square, and if they were there it would mean the ruin of the surrounding property. When I went there first you could almost get a present of a house, but now you would pay between £2,000 and £3,000 for a house there, because it is one of the last places in Dublin where there is absolute peace and quiet and where lawyers and doctors, and people like that who can still afford to pay, would like to go.
Now, we come to the north side of the city, and perhaps I should say first that there is one very fine playground on the north side, and one that supplies a playground for one of the very poorest slum districts in the city; and that is the King's Inns garden. Unlike St. Stephen's Green, it is not a very beautiful garden. It never was. It is confined to grass and trees. It is large, although not nearly as large as St. Stephen's Green. About 25 years ago, when we were thinking of spending some money on beautifying it and keeping it as the private garden of the Benchers of the King's Inns—it belongs to them—we came to the conclusion that, situated where it was, and Henrietta Street having decayed into one of the worst slums in Dublin, the best thing to do was to let the children into it, and for 25 years they have been there. It is open all day from dawn until sunset and if you go into it on a fine summer's day you will see between 1,500 and 2,000 children there with their fathers and their mothers, and sometimes their grandfathers and their grandmothers.
Then take the case of Rutland Square, or Parnell Square, as it is now called. That square belongs to the hospital and they may want to extend the hospital. In any case, the children who would be likely to use that square are near enough to King's Inns garden.
Therefore, this motion is confined to Mountjoy Square. I should be delighted to see that square opened up— that place that, in my young days, was as fashionable as Merrion Square became in later days. I remember as a young man going around it and wondering would I ever be able to live there just like the judges and other prominent men who were living there. I should be glad to see that square opened to the public, but I say again that this is not a matter for the Government. It is not worth the Government's while. This old city is practically as well supplied with playgrounds and open spaces as any city I know of, and you will not improve the matter by this motion. There is nothing that you can do, in reason or legally, that will really help the matter. That is why I think that Senator Colonel Moore would have been well advised not to move the motion.
I would like to say that we are in entire sympathy with the motion which has been put down by Senator Colonel Moore.
We all are.
In order to remove any misapprehensions that may have arisen in the minds of some Senators with regard to the speech made by Senator O'Farrell, I would like to make his point quite clear. Senator O'Farrell did not mean to suggest that the Labour Party and himself were not in favour of the idea underlying this motion. What he did say was that he thought that this was a job for the Dublin Corporation. With that view, I am in entire agreement. I can say from experience that the Labour Party in the Dublin Corporation have been pressing for a great many years for the turning of these squares into playgrounds for the children. I think that no harm will be done by the House passing this motion. In fact, it may be opportune to do so, so that when a town plan is being prepared for the City of Dublin and its suburbs the question of providing open spaces and squares will be included in it. There are, I know, a number of difficulties in the way—when I was a member of the Corporation we found then that there were tremendous difficulties—of getting these squares opened as playgrounds for children. I think that if Senator Colonel Moore follows the matter up he will find that that is so. In the first place, if a square is taken over and opened up as a public playground it must be under some control. There must be officers appointed who will be responsible to the body that takes over control of the square so as to ensure that there will be no accidents to children. If the Government, for instance, were to take over these squares, then I imagine they will be placed under the control of the Board of Works as in the case of St. Stephen's Green and Phoenix Park. If the squares are placed under the control of the Corporation, the Corporation will have to appoint a staff for their maintenance, upkeep and preservation as public squares.
As I have said, we found in the Corporation innumerable difficulties in the way with regard to the various squares that have been referred to by Senator Healy. He is a member of the Dublin Corporation and is aware of the difficulties. Like Senator Brown, he has narrowed this down to the question of Mountjoy Square. Senator Healy has told us that negotiations are going on through the Corporation for the purchase of Mountjoy Square. Every member of the House who knows Dublin is aware that it would be a blessing from God if Mountjoy Square were opened to the poor children of that area. There has been a terrible toll of child life around there, and all because of the want of playgrounds for the poor children. Indeed, there has been an appalling loss of life amongst the children of that area. If Senator Colonel Moore succeeds by the putting down of this motion in hurrying up the Corporation to take over that square, then I would say that he has done a good day's work by raising the matter here. I am in entire sympathy with the motion.
I feel that if it be true that the initiative in the matter of taking steps to give effect to the terms of the motion lies with the Dublin Corporation, it is at the same time by no means undesirable that this motion should have been put on the Order Paper of this House. I have no sympathy with the Senator who said he was afraid that the dignity of this Assembly was likely to be hurt by a motion such as this appearing on the Order Paper. It has been said that "the tongues of dying men enforce attention like deep harmony," and perhaps this motion from the Seanad, before its demise at an early date, may be successful in focussing attention upon this very desirable object of providing suitable recreation grounds for the young children of this city. I think that this motion is in keeping with the spirit of the report of the Greater Dublin Commission which sat in 1926. That report in a paragraph dealing with town planning, stated that the proper object of town planning
"does not aim at mere beautification; it aims at creating first, a good city rather than an ornate city."
It is highly desirable that for the preservation of life and particularly of child life, proper recreation grounds should be made available for the young children of the city. Therefore, I think it is very desirable that this motion should be given effect to. Personally, I should prefer if the motion were wider in its terms, because outside of Dublin there are many cities and towns that suffer from the lack of proper recreation grounds for the children that live in them. I should have been more pleased if we had an addendum to the motion to the effect that the provisions of, I think, Section 32 of the Land Act of 1933 were more fully availed of by the local authorities throughout the country and also by the educational authorities—the managers of the primary and secondary schools and the committees in charge of vocational education schools. The section of the Land Act to which I have referred enables the Land Commission, when acquiring land, to make provision for parks, recreation grounds and sports grounds in towns and villages, as well as playgrounds for school children. I think that an addendum giving expression to that view might very well be made to the motion. I am afraid that many of our local authorities or, at all events, some of them, do not fully appreciate the tremendous advantages, physical and otherwise, that would accrue from the provision of suitable recreation grounds for the children in their areas.
I agree with practically everything that has been said in support of the motion. I am in through agreement with Senator O'Farrell and Senator Brown that this is a matter entirely for the Dublin Corporation. In saying that, I do not for a moment close my eyes to the fact that it was the cause of humanity that suggested itself to Senator Colonel Moore when he put down this motion. As an old member of the Corporation, I can assure him it will be thankful not alone to the Seanad but for what Senator O'Farrell has said about Ballyjamesduff in giving this proposal a back push so far as these squares are concerned. It might appear from the debate that the Corporation of Dublin have done nothing in this matter, but I can assure the House that this has been a very vexed question with the Corporation since I joined it well over 30 years ago. Negotiations took place in reference to them, but we found, as Senator Farren said, that we were faced with many difficulties. We were faced with Acts of Parliament, vested rights, and all the legal obstacles possible. As my friend and colleague, Senator Healy, has pointed out, there are negotiations going on at present in reference to Mountjoy Square. In fact, I think they are almost on the point of being settled, and that half the square will be given to the children of that district as a playground. As many members of the House know, that is a district in the city where there is an urgent need for a playground for the children. Let us look at it from another angle. If Mountjoy Square was opened it would certainly satisfy many people. But in order to be fair we must look a little further afield. There are three or four tennis courts there which give keen enjoyment to the business boys and girls of the city, and I would not like that they should be deprived of a little enjoyment in the evenings after their hard day's work. It would meet the case if the area available were halved. I am not finding fault with Senator Moore's proposal. On behalf of the Corporation I desire sincerely to thank him for bringing it forward. This discussion will focus attention on the question, and any little help, from any quarter, will be very acceptable in order to make these squares available for the people.
I should like someone to tell the House how much further the case to provide open spaces for children is going to be advanced by passing this motion. I do not see that anyone is entitled to any credit in connection with this matter, because it has been agitating the minds of local authorities, especially in the City of Dublin, for many years. Many attempts have been made to have these squares opened. Motions like this will not further the claims of the children one bit. We have read of organisations to provide bird sanctuaries. It is time that local authorities arranged for child sanctuaries. We can cut out any reference to parks and squares, seeing that there are any amount of vacant spaces where ball-alleys and playgrounds could be provided. In my opinion such places would lessen the number of fatal accidents to children that have occurred in the streets. Local authorities should concentrate on that aspect of the case. When I was on the Continent I was very much impressed with the provision made in small spaces to shut off the children from the dangers of modern transport arrangements and fast motor cars. Instead of trying to make a case for the throwing open of the parks, the provision of open spaces would be less costly. I wonder how Senator Moore would regard a suggestion that Leinster Lawn should be thrown open to children. There is no reason why it should not.
It was open.
Not now.
Not in recent years, but when I was a child I played in it.
I can go back as far as Senator Farren. I remember that there was a very useful playground in a very congested neighbourhood near New Row where some foreign organisation provided swing-boats and merry-go-rounds. It is not there now. I do not know what happened the playground in Pimlico. Apparently that aspect of the matter has been lost sight of, while people are talking of opening up the parks as playgrounds. There are vacant spaces in every slum district and if these were available for the children in these areas it would do a lot more good than concentrating on the opening of the parks, because it would help to lessen the dangers in congested areas.
I wish to make it plain that I referred to squares which were largely residential, and that the necessity for opening the others was not as great as having open spaces in congested areas.
You are speaking by way of explanation now. You cannot make two speeches.
I am not conversant with the rules of the House. I do not know if I got copies of the Standing Orders. With regard to the point made, that it is the duty of local authorities to deal with the matter, I made it clear that local authorities were doing their duty. It must be remembered that local authorities cannot frame laws for the City of Dublin. If the Corporation proceeded to seek legislation it would be a fairly extensive job. This motion may have the effect of getting the Government to move in the matter.
Some Senators have pointed out that nothing would be gained by passing this motion, unless other means were taken to induce the Corporation to take the necessary steps. The matter has been going on for years and years and nothing has been done. It is a good thing to give even a little push to the movement and this motion is merely a recommendation to the Government. It cannot effect anything of itself. I took an interest in the matter two or three years ago and I went to the Trustees of Merrion Square to see what could be done. Having discussed the matter with the secretary a meeting of the trustees was called and they unanimously approved of Merrion Square being opened to the public. The people concerned at the time told me that they had tried to hand over the square but that nobody would take it. They said the Corporation would not take it; that they had tried everyone who would be likely to take it and no one would do so. It was pointed out that the trustees had no money to keep the square in order, or to maintain the railings around it. They said they would be only delighted if the Corporation would take it over as they knew that this question would arise later. I was not content to let the matter rest here. I went to the Lord Mayor and I informed him of what had happened. He was delighted with the information and said it was one of the things nearest to his heart to have the square handed over. He promised, on behalf of the Corporation, to have the matter taken up so that Merrion Square might be kept in the same perfect order that St. Stephen's Green is now kept, and he mentioned that two or three workmen would be employed there. There were further discussions at the time and the matter then dropped. That being the case, as I am not very much concerned about these matters, I thought if a motion was passed by this House it might induce the Government to take action. There is a regular plan for the replanning of the city, which will probably come on in another year. I remember attending meetings twenty years ago at which the question of town planning was discussed. I hoped that this motion would meet with universal approval and that the difficulties of opening some of the squares would not arise now. What we are asking the Government to do is to take the matter into consideration and to see what can be done to bring about what everybody here is anxious should be done. I hope that Senators will not throw this matter over, and that further efforts will be made to see that all the squares are made available for children and poor people in the city.
Would I be in order in asking Senator Colonel Moore a question?
We shall allow you to ask a question.
The question is that Senator Mrs. Clarke, Senator O'Neill and myself are the representatives of the Corporation here, and we can say that if overtures were made for the purpose of taking over Merrion Square, that happened over 30 years ago.
That is not a question.
I should like to say that, unfortunately for Senator Moore's motion, it does not ask the Government or the Corporation to do anything. It might have clarified the matter somewhat if that had been made clear in the motion.
He has given us one new phrase in any case—"child sanctuary."
That concludes the business and I wish Senators a happy Christmas.
The Seanad adjourned at 4.45 p.m. until Wednesday, 16th January, at 3 p.m.
