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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 May 1935

Vol. 19 No. 25

Public Business. - Milk and Dairies Bill, 1934—Committee Stage (Resumed).

Sections 30 and 31 agreed to.
SECTION 32.

I move amendment No. 4:—

New section. Before Section 32 to insert a new section as follows:—

(1) The Minister, with the concurrence of the Minister for Agriculture, may from time to time by order make regulations prohibiting the sale except under a special designation, within the meaning of Part IV of this Act, and under and in accordance with a special designation licence granted under the said Part IV of any milk which has been heated to a temperature higher than the temperature specified in such regulations or has been pasteurised.

(2) If any person acts in contravention of any regulation made under this section such person shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof, in the case of a first offence under this section, to a fine not exceeding five pounds, and, in the case of a second or any subsequent offence under this section, to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds, and, in either case, if the offence is a continuing one, to a further fine not exceeding forty shillings for each day during which the offence continues.

(3) An offence under this section may be prosecuted by or at the suit of the sanitary authority within whose sanitary district the offence was committed as prosecutor.

The effect of the amendment is to enable the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Agriculture to make regulations prohibiting the sale as ordinary milk of milk heated with a view to pasteurisation. It is considered that this amendment may meet some of the objections that were raised during a previous discussion.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 32 to 38 agreed to.
SECTION 39.
Amendment No. 5 not moved.

I move amendment No. 6:—

Section 39. At the end of subsection (1) to add a new paragraph as follows:—

(c) if the medical officer is a medical officer of an urban sanitary district and if such dairy is situated in another district he shall, in co-operation with the medical officer of such other sanitary district, examine the dairy, and, if he so thinks fit, any person engaged in the service thereof, or resident in the dairy, or who may be resident in any premises where any person employed in such dairy may reside, and shall, if necessary, require the veterinary officer to accompany him and examine the animals therein.

The object of the amendment is to improve the Bill as regards the prevention of the spread of disease. The Bill has been a difficult one to draft, and I am sure a great deal of time and anxious thought has been given to it as there are so many conflicting interests. There are two Government Departments concerned and the interests of each are not identical. Then there are two local authorities whose interests are not identical; then there is the producer and the consumer whose interests are not identical, but all these various interests are very important, so it has not been easy to reconcile the various interests. The main object of the Bill is to raise the standard of cleanliness and reduce the dangers of conveying disease by milk. There can be no doubt that the Bill will effect a great improvement in the milk supply, but it does not go far enough in making all milk sold for human consumption safe. However, I will deal with that matter in a subsequent amendment. This amendment is to give the medical officer of health of the district where the milk is consumed the right to visit an outside dairy if he suspects that disease may be conveyed by the milk from that dairy.

The Bill empowers the medical officer of health to stop milk coming from a suspected dairy, but this would entail great risks and no medical officer of health will ever do so until he is thoroughly convinced. But by that time there may be a very large number of persons affected, whereas if he had visited the dairy when the outbreak was in an early stage he might have been able to prevent much unnecessary suffering and many deaths. To visit the outside dairy would be only part of his investigation, and if he cannot do so he will be greatly handicapped if he has to wait till the medical officer of health of the district visits and reports to him. It may mean the loss of several days and it will not be nearly so satisfactory as if the investigation was continuous and in the hands of one person. Moreover, if the medical officer suspected, say, diphtheria he would take the necessary equipment for taking specimens with him and bring back the specimens to be bacteriologically examined and he could know the result the following evening. This would also be the best course to take for the dairymen. There would be no risk of friction, as the Parliamentary Secretary seems to think, between the medical officers, one in the district and one outside it.

That is not my experience. I never found medical officers objecting to anything that was for the benefit of the public health. If this matter was referred to the medical officers I am sure they would fully endorse all the proposals, as far as the county boroughs are concerned, which would mean 20 per cent. of the total population. A public meeting was held by the Clean Milk Society after the Bill was introduced. The meeting was largely attended by those interested in the subject, dairymen, farmers, veterinary surgeons, medical men and the public generally and the question was strongly set out in a report which was unanimously approved of. There is no new principle in the amendment. The water supply of urban districts is supervised outside their districts. The Infant Aid Society which is doing a great amount of useful work in the city has a right to go to dairies outside the city, although the Government pays half the cost and the Corporation the other half. I hope the amendment will be accepted.

The principle of the amendment is very good but I cannot see the object of the clause in it which reads: "in co-operation with the medical officer of such other sanitary district." The medical officer of an urban district may find it necessary to examine a dairy which is not in his district, in order to find out the source of some disease. I wonder whether, in a case of that kind, professional etiquette, which is so admirable in ordinary cases, ought to be introduced so as to prevent him from doing his work expeditiously and properly. I do not see the reason for introducing this clause "in co-operation with the medical officer of such other sanitary district". I think that it ought to be more definite. Will you impose a duty on the medical officer of the sanitary district outside the urban district to accompany the officer for the urban district? If you do not, is it not much better to give authority to the officer of the urban sanitary district to pursue the disease and find out its source wherever he can. I think that that clause needs some consideration and that the question of professional etiquette ought to give way to the question of public health. I should like to hear what Senator Sir Edward Coey Bigger has to say on that point.

There would be no conflict of interest between the two medical officers. It is part of the duty of one of these officers to inspect the dairy and satisfy himself as regards the state of cleanliness which prevails. It is not in conflict with that duty that a medical officer of an urban district should visit the dairy with a view to seeing the persons who are in contact with the milk. The other officer has really been looking after the cleanliness of the apparatus and the conditions in which the cows are kept. It does not interfere with that duty if a medical officer from another district calls to examine those persons who may be conveying disease or by whom the milk may be contaminated. This would be the speediest way of dealing with the matter. I made some inquiries as to what is happening in England, where a similar measure is in operation. There, the medical officer of an urban district telephones to the medical officer of the district which is suspected as the place of origin of the disease, and says: "We have a suspicion that disease occurring here is traceable to a particular dairy in your district. Shall we look into it or will you?" The reply generally is: "You had better do it yourself."

According to this amendment, two officers would be appointed to do the work of one.

One officer would be responsible to the urban authority for getting to the root of the trouble at the earliest possible moment. The whole point of this amendment is to save time and, where it is a question of the spreading of infectious disease, the saving of time is a very important matter.

I think that Senator Sir Edward Coey Bigger has been too careful in requiring the co-operation of the medical officer of the other sanitary district. If this amendment passes in its present form, the medical officer of, say, an urban district will not be able to act unless he gets the requisite co-operation of the other medical officer. It seems to me that, where a medical officer is suspicious that milk is coming from a dairy which is infected and which is situate outside his area, it is his duty on behalf of the people whom he is serving to ascertain the facts as quickly as he can, and he should have the right to make an examination of the dairy. It is desirable that he should notify the medical officer of the other area that he is going to make that examination, but if his co-operation cannot be obtained within the necessary time, it should not be rendered impossible for the medical officer of the area concerned to make the examination on his own behalf.

It is opportune to say that paragraph (b) which is affected by this amendment provides that the service of the notice shall be by post. There, the delay which is inevitable under the Bill, as drafted, may be considerable. There is not even the possibility of giving notice to the other officer by telephone or by personal visit. However, I gather from the Parliamentary Secretary that he proposed to introduce an amendment on this point. The question is whether it is desirable that the medical officer of, shall I say, an urban district should have the right to go to the dairy which he suspects on his own initiative. I think that he should be required to notify, with all expedition, the medical officer of the area concerned, but I do not think he should have to wait until he is assured of that officer's co-operation. I urge the Minister to accept the principle of the amendment and to introduce such modifications as he thinks necessary.

I am opposed to this amendment. I think that it would not be so strongly advocated if there were a clearer conception of the terms of the Bill. The amendment is, apparently, designed to give extra territorial powers of inspection to medical officers of health. The wording of it suggests to me that it has been based on the assumption that the medical officer of health in an urban district is to be the medical officer to enforce the terms of this Bill. If the medical officer of health in each dispensary district were to be the medical officer for the purpose of this Bill, a good deal could be said in favour of extra-territorial power of inspection because, in many cases, the area of supply would be altogether outside the officer's own jurisdiction.

I am thinking of county boroughs.

Under Section 8, the expression "the medical officer" means, when used in relation to a sanitary district which is a county borough, the medical superintendent officer of health for such county borough and, when used in relation to any other sanitary district, the county medical officer of health who acts for such district. Had Senator Edward Coey Bigger moved his amendment, No. 5, I intended to indicate my preparedness to accept the principle of that amendment because I think it is a useful amendment and that notification by post would, in certain circumstances, be far too slow in the event of a medical officer of health believing that an outbreak of infectious disease was attributable to milk produced in an outlying area.

I intend to circulate an amendment for Report Stage which will provide for the most rapid method of notification that can be devised. With that amendment, I think the machinery contemplated in the Bill will be less complicated and will work more smoothly than the machinery suggested in Sir Edward Coey Bigger's amendment. If the medical officer of health of a district has reason to suspect that milk from an outside district—which will mean from a county outside the officer's area of jurisdiction—is causing, or is liable to cause, or is suspected of causing an outbreak of disease, he has power to notify the medical officer of health in the district where the milk is produced. The medical officer of health in that district is under a statutory obligation immediately to do certain things—to inspect the dairy, the cows, the attendants and the dairymen. Is not that a better machine than to give power to the medical officer of health in the area in which the milk is being distributed and sold to begin prying into the public health conditions in a district outside his own? There is not a shadow of doubt that such powers would carry the assumption that the medical officer of health in the district under suspicion was not doing his job properly. Bear in mind that the dairyman must be registered with the sanitary authority in whose area his dairy is situate. Consequently, the medical officer of health of that district must be satisfied at the outset that the conditions under which the milk is being produced are satisfactory. The dairyman must also be registered as a purveyor of milk in the area in which he is selling. If the medical officer of health of the district in which he is disposing of the milk is not satisfied as to the conditions under which the milk is being produced, he can advise his sanitary authority to cancel the licence. I think that that arrangement must be nearly fool proof. If, as Senator Edward Coey Bigger suggests, the result of this telephonic communication would be that the medical officer of health in the district under suspicion would say: "It is all right; go ahead yourself; I have not any objection," I do not think it would get us very far. There is no doubt that the man living in the district who was originally responsible for advising that the dairyman should be registered would have a better knowledge of the conditions under which that milk was being produced than would a stranger who would go into the district for this purpose for the first time. He would have little or no local knowledge.

Apart from the various arguments that might be adduced against this amendment, I believe it would be very difficult to administer it effectively. Suppose that milk from Limerick, Cork, or Kerry, which is being distributed in Dublin, comes under suspicion. If it were necessary to have an inspection of the dairies down there, it would require elaborate and costly machinery to send down inspectors from Dublin to these counties. It would be more expeditious in the long run to telephone or wire the medical officer of health in these areas to carry out certain inspections and to make a report as to the conditions under which the milk was being produced. This matter was debated at length in the Dáil, and we gave a good deal of consideration to it in the Department of Public Health. I have not any doubt that the Bill sets up a better machine, a more effective machine, and a machine that will work more smoothly than the machinery proposed in the amendment.

I must say that I am rather inclined to support Senator Sir E. Coey Bigger's amendment. The arguments used by the Minister have influenced me a good deal in that direction. The Minister appears to be more concerned about the dignity of the office of medical adviser than he is about the spreading of contagious diseases. He takes up the point of defending the county medical officer of health. In the case of the man who is dealing in the milk and who has reason to suppose that the spread of an infectious disease is caused by the milk supplied from a certain area, the Minister takes offence that he should raise the question with the county medical officer of health and be in a position to investigate what he believes to be the source of the infection. I do not think that is an argument against the amendment. I think that every facility should be given to the medical officer who believes that the contagion is coming from a certain source to enable him to go there and investigate it at the earliest possible moment. Unlike the Minister, I do not believe that the county medical officers of health are infallible. I believe they are liable to err just like other people, and some of them perhaps are inclined to be a little indifferent in these matters. Their indifference may result in the deaths of a number of people. I agree with the Senator who has put down the amendment that our concern should be to get after the contagion at the earliest possible moment, and for the reasons stated I support the amendment.

I would support the Minister if his contention was that the amendment proposed that the medical officer for the urban district should go and inspect the dairy. I have not proposed it. I am only proposing that he should go there in case there is a disease from a human source. If he goes there to examine the persons who are concerned in producing the milk, that does not mean that he will be interfering in any way with the provisions made for the medical officer who is looking after the cleanliness and everything connected with the dairy. It does not interfere in the slightest with him. Supposing that the medical officer for a county had inspected the dairy, say, a week or two before and found everything right—found it perfectly clean, perfectly kept and all the rest of it—and that in the meantime there was an outbreak of disease in the district, that has nothing to do with the medical officer for the county at all. It concerns the inhabitants of the district, and at the earliest possible moment that should be stopped. That is the object of the amendment.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 19; Níl, 16.

  • Baxter, Patrick F.
  • Bigger, Sir Edward Coey.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Brown, Samuel L., K.C.
  • Browne, Miss Kathleen.
  • Counihan, John C.
  • Cummins, William.
  • Douglas, James G.
  • Duggan, E.J.
  • Foran, Thomas.
  • Jameson, Right Hon. Andrew.
  • Johnson, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Thomas.
  • McGillycuddy of the Reeks, The.
  • MacLoughlin, John.
  • Milroy, Seán.
  • O'Rourke, Brian.
  • Staines, Michael.
  • Wilson, Richard.

Níl

  • Boyle, James J.
  • Comyn, Michael, K.C.
  • Connolly, Joseph.
  • Dowdall, J.C.
  • Fitzgerald, Séamus.
  • Healy, Denis D.
  • Honan, Thomas V.
  • Linehan, Thomas.
  • Lynch, Patrick, K.C.
  • Moore, Colonel.
  • Máille, Pádraic O.
  • Phaoraigh, Siobhán Bean an.
  • Quirke, William.
  • Robinson, David L.
  • Robinson, Seumas.
  • Toal, Thomas.
Tellers:—Tá: Senators Sir E. Coey Bigger and T. Foran; Níl: Senators S. and D.L. Robinson.
Amendment declared carried.

On behalf of Senator Kennedy I move amendment No. 7:—

Section 39. At the end of subsection (9) to insert two new paragraphs as follows:—

(c) every person who immediately before the making of the order was an employee of such dairyman and who arising out of the making of the order was deprived of wages or other emoluments during the period for which the order was in force, shall be entitled to recover from the sanitary authority full compensation for the loss of such wages or other emoluments as he may have sustained by reason of the making of the order;

(d) every person who immediately before the making of the order was an employee of such dairyman and in consequence of the unreasonable neglect or refusal by the medical officer of the sanitary authority to withdraw such order, was deprived of wages or other emoluments shall be entitled to recover from such sanitary authority full compensation for the loss of such wages or other emoluments as he may have sustained by the unreasonable neglect or refusal by such medical officer to withdraw such order.

Senator Kennedy asked me to move this amendment for him. The amendment, in effect, gives the same right to the working people in the industry as it gives to the employer. Where a dairy is closed down through a misdirection or a false order—a mistake on the part of the sanitary authority— the Bill makes provision for compensation for the employer. We feel that if it is right, and we believe it is, that the sanitary authority which has wrongly made this order should compensate the employer, then the working people who may lose their employment and their wages from the same cause should have an equal claim against the sanitary authority and be compensated for their loss of wages during the period in which they have been thrown out of employment. I do not think I need say more in support of the claim that we are making in this amendment.

There is no contesting the argument, I think, that the employee is entitled to as good treatment as the employer, and I would be prepared to accept the principle of the amendment to that extent. But if a prohibition order is made as a result of the negligence of an employer or through his default, I think it could not reasonably be contended that the employee in such circumstances would be entitled to compensation. Subject to that reservation, I would be prepared to accept the principle of the amendment. If the Senator withdraws the amendment now, I will have a new amendment drafted and brought up on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question—"That Section 39 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 40.

I move amendment No. 8:—

New section. Before Section 40 to insert a new section as follows:—

40. Any urban sanitary authority, with the consent of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, may prohibit the sale of milk in their area, except designated milk and pasteurised milk.

My amendment does not go so far as I could wish. I should like to make the provision of a safe milk supply compulsory rather than permissive. It will, however, give any urban sanitary authority the right, with the approval of the Minister for Local Government, to safeguard the inhabitants in their area from various diseases conveyed by milk. When in Canada in 1926 I visited the hospitals in Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto. I saw a number of children suffering from tuberculosis of the glands, bones and joints. I inquired why there should be so many, seeing that they had no slums? This raised the question of tuberculosis being communicated by milk. The milk supplied to the hospitals was either pasteurised, or from tubercular-free herds, but this did not then apply to the milk supply in those cities. There was at that time a great deal of attention being drawn to the question of a safe milk supply. A large quantity of milk produced in Canada was sent to the cities in the United States.

The following year, 1927, there was the largest recorded outbreak of typhoid fever in Montreal and some of the cities in the United States, including New York. This was traced to the milk coming from Montreal. There were 4,755 cases with 453 deaths. There was so much attention drawn to this that the United States threatened to exclude all milk coming from Canada unless it was efficiently pasteurised. It had this result: all milk sold in the large eastern cities of Canada and the United States must be either designated milk or pasteurised milk. Pasteurising milk does not alter its nutritive value and only very slightly the vitamins. In Toronto two years later, 1929 or 1930, there was an examination of 207 cases of tuberculosis in children and the bovine type of bacilli was found in 26 of these. But not one of these had been living in Toronto, where 99½ per cent. of the milk was pasteurised. These facts are sufficient to convince the most sceptical person of the urgent necessity of insisting on having a safe milk supply.

This Bill has for its object the reduction of the risk of communicating disease by milk. The Bill follows on the lines of the English Bill of 1922, and the Milk (Special Designations Order), 1923, and it is only natural to inquire how far it has succeeded in reducing the death and sickness rates from bovine tuberculosis in England. Within the past few years three experts of the highest standing, Doctors Griffith, Cumming and Foster, have examined large numbers of cases of tuberculosis from different parts of England, and they have found that in disease of bones, joints, cervical glands and lupus, over one-third were of the bovine type. These facts are not encouraging after about ten years of working the English Milk and Dairies (Amendment) Act, 1922. Are we likely to have any better results from working under the same conditions?

If anyone has any doubts of the fearful consequences of tuberculosis in children in Dublin, and the same will apply to other parts of the Free State, let him visit the Children's Hospital, Temple Street, the Children's Hospital, Harcourt Street, the Orthopædic Hospital, the Children's Hospital, Dublin Union, and Cappagh, where you will see large numbers of innocent and helpless children suffering from tubercular disease of the bones, joints, spine and glands. Many of them will never recover, and those that do will be maimed and crippled for life. It rests with the members of this House to say whether this tragedy of disease is to continue.

I support this amendment. It is following on the lines of what was done in England and other countries. I think it gives a power that the Ministry would really like to have when this Bill goes through. I am sure, the principle of the amendment being permissive, that no Ministry would act without very good and sufficient cause.

In theory it would be rather difficult, I think, to make a case against this amendment, but I confess I have difficulty in picturing a time when the amendment, if it became law, would become really effective. The amendment states:—

Any urban sanitary authority, with the consent of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, may prohibit the sale of milk except designated and pasteurised milk.

If it is admitted by the House that the local authorities, with the Minister for Local Government behind them, can be entrusted with these extensive powers, I have very strong views about it.

There is no doubt that in existing circumstances no local authority or the Minister would prohibit the sale of milk otherwise than designated or pasteurised milk for the simple reason that the poor could not afford to pay for it. I think it would be better for people interested in the sale of pure milk for our children to concentrate on trying to secure that milk is produced under better conditions and conditions that would be both hygienic and safe. It is very largely a question of cleanliness. I do not say that that is going to eliminate tuberculosis. That is another problem and one that will be tackled by the Minister for Agriculture, but it is a very big problem and in the meantime things can be improved. I am sure Senator Sir E. Coey Bigger would be the first to agree that so far as the spread of tuberculosis through tubercular milk goes it is open to serious doubt whether pasteurisation is a safeguard in that respect, as it is in many others. There are dangers from carelessness amongst us and amongst the local authorities, and there are dangers to the poor in all this. I quite admit that Senator Sir Edward Bigger wants to safeguard the poor from different standpoints. But I think the way to do it, so far as milk is concerned, is to concentrate upon the production of clean milk and not to leave it open to the authorities to deprive children of milk for which their parents cannot pay.

I do not know whether Senator Sir Edward Bigger told us what designation he wants. But I know the designation that will be brought forward by the Minister. There must be, in that designation, regard for the milk that the Minister says he wants to supply and, therefore, there would be nothing achieved by this amendment. The milk the Minister wants will have to be descriptive of the designation. Pasteurised milk is the cheapest thing in the world. I saw a contract for pasteurised milk at 7¼d. a gallon but I need not go into the question of cost. I think if we knew definitely from the Minister what the designation would be then possibly Senator Sir Edward Bigger's amendment would fit in with what I consider the designation that ought to be brought forward.

When the scientific men are not agreed whether or not pasteurisation could prevent tuberculosis, I do not see that we should pass this amendment. When Senator Sir Edward Bigger spoke he had the City of Dublin entirely in his mind—at least that was what I gathered from his speech. He contemplates the case of large cities supplied by dairies or creameries which have machinery for pasteurising milk. But this amendment will deal with the supply of milk in small towns throughout the country. I think the Senator has forgotten the main consideration, and that is that we should endeavour to secure a good supply of wholesome milk for children at reasonable prices.

That will be designated milk.

I thought Senator Sir Edward Bigger meant by designated milk, milk that would be treated by some process that would destroy all microbes.

That is quite wrong.

I may be quite wrong, and Senator Sir Edward Bigger may not understand what he was talking about. Of course, Senator Wilson would tell us that we know nothing at all about cows, or milk, or babies. In this case the Government is doing its best to secure a supply of wholesome milk for the children of the State. There is a scheme for the elimination of tuberculous cattle. I think that is approaching the subject from the right direction. I hope that tuberculous cows will be eliminated as soon as possible and that they will all be converted into meal or fertiliser. I should like very much to support any amendment that would secure a supply of milk free from this bacillus, but, at the same time, I think that this does not do it. The scientists are not agreed. Dr. Ward, on one side, a scientific man, are and Senator Sir Edward Coey Bigger on the other side, a scientific man, are not agreed. I think that until they are agreed we should not take a step in the dark, especially if it means that the price of milk for the poor people is to be increased. Of course, an increase in the price of milk would mean a reduction in the supply to these people and a sort of starvation for them. I would not be in favour of this amendment until we know more about the facts.

I am in rather a difficulty about this amendment for various reasons. I was very much affected by what Senator Sir Edward Coey Bigger said about the various hospitals to which he referred—not hospitals in other places, but hospitals here, children's hospitals, in which we are all interested. I am sure that we would all like to help the children of the poor. I think that it is our duty to do all that we can to preserve their health and to secure that they should be healthy, but we ought to get down to it seriously. I think that the duty upon us of protecting the health of the children of the poor is one that we should realise is cast upon us now. I cannot help thinking, with all respect, that the Parliamentary Secretary is somewhat misled as to the meaning of this amendment, because the amendment has been discussed by some of the Senators on the assumption that an urban authority, by this amendment, is getting authority to prohibit the sale of milk unless it is what is called designated or pasteurised milk. The amendment is being discussed on the assumption that it seeks to give an urban authority power to close down the sale of milk except the milk comes within one or other of these descriptions. The amendment does not do that, however. An urban authority cannot get power, under this amendment, to prohibit the sale of milk, other than designated or pasteurised milk, except with the consent of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. It is merely permissive.

I respectfully ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider the matter, and not to ask us to vote on it in a hurry. It is merely permissive and cannot be done except with the consent of the Minister. An occasion might arise, although I hope it will not, where the Minister might like to have that power and to be able to say to an urban authority, even though it might be a little bit more expensive to purchase the milk: "Do not allow any milk to be sold in your area for a particular period, except it is pasteurised or comes within the description of designated milk, until further orders." An occasion might arise where the Ministry of Local Government and Public Health would like to have that power, and I respectfully ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider the situation before he asks us to divide on the question, or else to consider devising some means by which agreement can be come to on the matter. As Senator Comyn has pointed out, we have Dr. Ward on the one side and Senator Sir Edward Coey Bigger on the other, and we have had other people with great experience in this particular product, speaking upon it also. It is very embarrassing to ask us to vote in these circumstances.

The discussion leads me to the conclusion that the real meaning of this amendment is that a local authority, provided it gets the consent of the Minister, may prohibit the sale of any milk in the area except pasteurised milk. That is the effect of it, as for practical purposes, designated milk need not be there. Now, pasteurising plant does not exist everywhere. Let me take two extremes, possibly. Let us take, say, the City of Dublin and the urban district of Ballina. I take leave to doubt whether there is any pasteurisation plant convenient to Ballina, or very near it at any rate. Consequently, we may rule out Ballina as a likely place where the Minister would give his consent. Let us take Dublin. I have in mind a dairy, a very well-conducted dairy, where everything is clean and the cattle very carefully dealt with and tested. It is probable that this dairy will not conform to the requirements regarding designated milk. Nor has it a pasteurisation plant, and yet it supplies milk to its own neighbourhood. Therefore, if the Dublin urban authority were empowered, and got the Minister's consent, to prohibit the sale of any milk except pasteurised or designated milk, that particular dairyman would have no right to sell good and carefully produced milk to that locality.

If there is any case to be made for the prohibition of milk except it is pasteurised, it should not be a local matter at all. It should be a case of prohibition, whether under this Bill or some other Bill, to cover the whole country. If these children are suffering, as they are suffering, in the hospitals of Dublin because of the consumption of tubercular milk, the remedy is not a local one. The remedy lies in a general prohibition of the consumption by children of any milk except it has been pasteurised. When you have got proof that pasteurisation is the one certain method of preventing tuberculosis, then it should be a general prohibition and not a local one.

I think the amendment is unwise. As I said in an earlier stage, much that is desirable cannot be achieved until there has been fairly considerable experience of the effects of this Bill. I think that to put this section in the Bill is to overload it, even though it is permissive; and if it is going to be applied at all, then it is one that should be applied altogether to the whole country. I do not think it should be permissive for any sanitary authority at all. I think the time has not yet arrived for the enforcement of such an amendment, or even the inclusion of such an amendment in the Bill, giving powers to local authorities to prohibit the sale of anything but pasteurised milk.

I merely rise to take away a misconception from the minds of Senators with regard to the statement made that the children in hospitals here, suffering from bone disease, are suffering from that disease because of tubercular milk. That is pure bunkum. I think that statistics show that only about 16 per cent. is attributable to bovine tuberculosis and the rest comes from human entities.

Not having enough milk.

Yes, and not having proper houses to live in. I did not want to enter into the debate except that Senator Johnson said that these children are in these hospitals suffering from that disease because they drank tubercular milk. They are not there because they drank tubercular milk, because the statistics prove they are not. I think that we should vote on this matter quite independently and from the point of view of what is right. I believe, however, that Senator Sir Edward Coey Bigger has unintentionally misled the House in that respect.

I support Senator Sir Edward Coey Bigger in this amendment. Some Senators have stressed the point that Senator Sir Edward Coey Bigger and Dr. Ward disagree on this matter. There is an old saying in the West of Ireland: "Doctors differ and patients die." Even if they do differ, I believe that that should not come into the argument at all. Senator Comyn tells us that there is a scheme for the elimination of tubercular cows. I wish to goodness there was, but I have not heard about it. I know that there is a scheme for the elimination of calves, whether tubercular or not, but I hope there is a scheme for the elimination of tubercular cows.

There is a scheme. There is a factory actually built.

We have had farmers and doctors and lawyers speaking here, but I am talking as a consumer, and probably one of the largest consumers of milk in Dublin. I do not want tubercular or dirty milk, and I think that Senator Sir Edward Coey Bigger's amendment is perfectly in order and should be passed by this House. He has told us about the patients in Cappagh. To my mind, that is a hospital that was absolutely essential here about 50 years ago. It was started only a few years ago and is doing great work. I do not agree with Senator Wilson that tubercular bone disease is caused by bad housing and all that sort of thing. Very few of the people in that institution come from the tenements. That bone disease comes in amongst rich and poor. There is no use in Senators saying that we are looking after the poor children. This is a matter that affects everybody, rich and poor, and if the disease is in the milk, and I believe that it is in a great many cases, we should do something to prevent it. I want to have good milk and clean milk, and I appeal to the House to pass this amendment.

Milk, to my mind, is the best food that any child can get, provided that it is good milk. It is absolutely the worst food a child could get, if it is bad milk. Consequently, you must have it good and clean and tubercle-free. I am very much interested in the water supply of this city, but I do not mind them putting water in the milk. At least, that will not poison it. I am also interested, however, in the milk supply, and what does harm milk is producing it under unclean and unsanitary conditions. I have seen a can of milk at Kingsbridge with two inches of dirt in the bottom of it. Such a thing should not be tolerated, and the more restrictions you put on the milk suppliers the better. When Senator Bigger proposes an amendment like this, giving authority to any urban sanitary authority, with the consent of the Minister for Local Government, to prevent the sale of milk, except designated milk or pasteurised milk, I leave it to himself and the Parliamentary Secretary—two doctors—to decide whether that is good or bad. When buying designated milk, a person should know whether it is tubercle-free.

I should like to support the amendment, but it is well known that there are two schools of thought in reference to milk supplies. I understand that one Department of Government is very anxious to secure that milk exposed for sale should be pasteurised, while it is common knowledge that another very powerful Government Department is in favour of supplies of milk from tubercular tested herds, or, in other words, the sale of clean milk in its natural state. There is a conflict of opinion between these parties, and that is largely responsible for the fact that a Bill for the pasteurisation of milk has not been introduced. The danger I see in the amendment is that it is giving power to urban councils that may be in favour of pasteurised milk, and to a Minister with the similar line of thought, that should be contained in an Act of Parliament. Apart from the difficulty referred to by Senator Johnson, the impossibility of getting a sufficient supply of designated or pasteurised milk in urban areas far removed from pasteurised centres, the great danger I see is in giving urban councils and a Minister in favour of pasteurisation power that should not be given except by Act of Parliament. I am sorry I have to oppose the amendment.

Senator Sir Edward Bigger's statement with regard to tubercular herds can be described as "a judicious exaggeration." It has been stated repeatedly in this House, and was not contradicted, that only two per cent. of tubercular cows give tubercular milk. In that case there is not such a great danger from tubercular milk or conditions for milk supplies as is stated. Senator Sir Edward Bigger knows that what he wants is pasteurised milk or T.T. milk. If he left it at pasteurised milk I would be more inclined to support him. Many authorities completely differ with the Senator regarding the merits of pasteurised milk. Many people would not have pasteurised milk at any price, because they believe that when it becomes sour or when it is stale it is most injurious. When we have two sets of authorities differing so much on the merits or demerits of pasteurised milk, we should leave it at that and let the Senators go on for tubercular tested milk.

We passed an amendment to-day making it competent to make all pasteurised milk designated milk.

What is designated milk?

I do not know. The Minister has taken power whereby pasteurised milk should not be sold except under such designation.

I am not strongly opposed to the amendment. I indicated in my opening remarks that I hold the view very strongly that the amendment will not be effective; that we are going to put something ornamental into the Bill that is not going to be used. At the outset I said that a case could not be made against this amendment in theory. As it stands, I do not think the House would be well advised to accept it. I wonder what would be the position in a large centre of population, for example, like Mullingar, that has not an urban council. There are many towns not urbanised and without town commissioners that are as large in population as urbanised areas. If the principle is sound at all, it would appear to me to be desirable that it should have universal application, whenever it comes into operation. There appears to be a general view in the House that the principle should be incorporated in the Bill. If that is the general feeling I am quite prepared to accept it, and to have an amendment drafted for the Report Stage. The wording of this amendment would have to be altered.

Am I to understand that the Parliamentary Secretary will draft the amendment?

Yes, if there is general feeling on these lines.

Making it of universal application.

I am inclined to accept that, but I should like to see the amendment. In the meantime I will refer to one or two matters regarding the statistics. They are not my statistics. What I said was well within the mark. The figures dealt with all ages. Children were about 50 per cent. The complaints included lupus, bones and joints.

The Senator referred to Temple Street Hospital and I want to prove that these complaints were caused by tubercular milk.

So far as I know there has been no calculation of the actual number between bovine and human diseases. I can only give the statistics and refer to children where a Milk Act has been in existence for 12 years. The statistics are based on scientific lines. I referred to the number of tubercular children in Dublin. Anybody can see them. It may be taken that the percentage will not be less in Dublin than elsewhere. Probably it would be more. It does not matter whether it is a few points more or less. I was not referring to cattle. About 2 per cent. of the cattle may cause thousands of cases of tuberculosis in children. I was talking of tubercular milk that produces tuberculosis in children.

Give the numbers.

I stated that about one-third were of the bovine type, that lupus represented 46 per cent., bone disease 42 per cent. in Scotland and 18 per cent. in England. I was well within the mark when I said one-third. I might have said that it was nearer to 50 per cent. As regards the point mentioned by the Parliamentary Secretary, it is the large centres of population that should be considered. They will only be considered when the Minister is satisfied that the arrangements are complete and that he is able to make an order. I have been in this House for 10 years during which no Milk Bill has been introduced. It may be 10 years more before there is another Milk Bill brought in. Putting in a permissive clause like this, which may not operate for a year or two, can do no harm. Medical men cannot recommend the consumption of more milk at present. Too little milk is used in this country. In the United States they recommend the use of one quart for each child under 16. How many families in this country use a quart of milk? Why should more milk not be used? The medical profession is prepared to recommend the use of more milk provided the milk is safe. That is the reason I am pressing the amendment, so that any sanitary authority in Dublin or Cork that thinks it right to do so, can say: "we are ready to do this."

As to the question of the pasteurisation of milk not being able to stop tuberculosis, that is quite wrong, provided always that the pasteurisation has been done in an efficient way. That has been scientifically proved beyond yea or nay. There has been tremendous concentration on this question in England, where half the articles in medical journals deal with the subject. Why? Because they have had a Milk Act for 12 years, but it has not been efficient. It has not done what was expected of it. Surely it is not too much to ask the House to pass a permissive amendment such as this one. It does not bind anyone. It puts the onus on the Minister of seeing that local authorities adopt proper machinery.

I wonder whether Senator Sir Edward Bigger adverts to the fact that this section would authorise prevention of the sale of milk other than milk for purposes of pasteurisation.

I appeal to Senator Sir Edward Bigger to withdraw his amendment, seeing that the Parliamentary Secretary will consider the question of putting in something on Report Stage.

I am quite ready to accept that suggestion if the Parliamentary Secretary will see me and talk it over.

He is going much further than that to meet you. He is going to make it universal, which is something some of us would object to.

I hope they will not make milk too dear.

Take an urban centre like Wexford, with a population of 12,000 people, if such a provision is put into the Bill, is the urban authority going to set up pasteurisation plant? Otherwise it would be absolutely impossible and would prohibit the sale of any milk. I know the class of people that supply that urban area, small farmers, and it would be out of the question for them to set up pasteurisation plants.

When the proposed amendment comes before the House the Senator can vote against it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Sections 40 to 58 inclusive agreed to.
SECTION 59.

I move amendment No. 9 as follows:

New section. Before Section 59 to insert a new section as follows:—

"It shall not be lawful for any person by himself or his servant to bottle milk for sale unless the bottling is performed on premises registered for that purpose."

I move this amendment to direct attention to a practice obtaining in the City of Dublin under which bottles are taken into alleys and filled with milk. This milk is sold as bottled milk. Unless the bottle is clean, bottled milk is a danger. I understand that the Parliamentary Secretary will not accept this amendment as he holds he has powers in the Bill to deal with the matter.

It is, I think, important, when people are selling milk in bottles, that there should be some more drastic provision than there is in the existing law with regard to measures to ensure that the bottles do contain what they purport to contain. My experience is that these bottles are, to a large extent, the means whereby people can be robbed of milk.

That is a question of weights and measures.

I am drawing attention to a fact which is obvious to anybody who has examined this question.

This amendment is covered by Section 10 of the Bill. This section states: "A dairyman shall be deemed, for the purposes of this Act, to carry on the business of a dairyman at every premises used by him for the purposes of his business as a dairyman." That would include bottling premises as well as any other premises. The premises must be registered.

Under Section 10, can you prevent a man taking a bottle into an alley and filling it?

If he intends to sell the milk.

As regards what Senator Johnson said, in this country we must buy bottles from a certain institution and we have to take the bottles they give us. If they are too small, it is not our fault, and if they are too large, it is we who suffer.

And if they are not properly filled?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Sections 59 to 63, inclusive, agreed to.
SCHEDULE.
Amendment No. 11 (Senator Sir E. Coey Bigger), by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule and Title agreed to.
Bill reported with amendments.
Report Stage fixed for Wednesday, 22nd May.
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