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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 May 1935

Vol. 20 No. 1

Public Business. - Road Transport Bill, 1935—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to effect a number of miscellaneous amendments in the Road Transport Act of 1933. Some of them are not of very great importance but one or two of them deserve special mention. The purpose of Section 2 is to deal with a peculiar type of case which arose here and there throughout the country. A person who carries his own merchandise in his own vehicle is not required to have a merchandise licence. In certain cases, however, businesses were controlled by companies. One company owned and controlled by the same people carried on another type of business as another company. The working arrangement in the past provided for the goods of one company being carried in the vehicles of another. That practice became illegal under the terms of the Road Transport Act, unless the company with the vehicles received a merchandise licence and, consequently, became public carriers, accepting all the obligations of public carriers. The most typical case of that kind was where certain people in a town owned a garage or motor equipment establishment and a general merchandise business and where, for private reasons, they had transformed themselves into limited liability companies, having a separate company for each business. One can easily see how it became the practice to use the vehicles of the motor company to carry the goods of the other company and how convenient that arrangement was. With the enactment of the Road Transport Act, it became impossible to continue that arrangement. To meet this difficulty it is proposed to provide that, where a mechanically propelled vehicle owned by a company is used for the carriage of merchandise the property of any company which is in the same ownership or under the same management, such merchandise shall be deemed for the purposes of the principal Act not to be carried for reward. The difficulty would only have arisen where individuals had transformed themselves into limited liability companies. It would not have arisen in the case of persons acting as individuals. There is no reason, from the transport point of view, why those concerned should not be facilitated by this amendment.

Section 3 provides one of the main amendments which the Bill is designed to effect. Under the original Act, an existing carrier was entitled to get a licence authorising him to conduct a road transport business with vehicles of the same total unladen weight as those which he possessed for the purposes of that business during the qualifying period. The great majority of businesses were carried on with one vehicle only. Out of 1,200 or 1,300 licences issued, over 1,000 were issued in respect of road transport services carried on with the aid of one vehicle only. A large number of those transport operators had a very popular type of vehicle called the Ford one-ton truck and, consequently, they got licences for the one-ton standard weight. That truck is not now available and the general tendency is to use motor vehicles of greater carrying capacity. When the original Bill was introduced in the Dáil, a Deputy suggested that it would make for administrative convenience to provide a minimum unladen weight of two tons and to allow operators to vary their equipment under that weight. We foolishly rejected that suggestion at the time. We found out by experience that, if we had adopted it, it would have made a great difference in the administration of the Act. It would have made administration much more simple than it has been. We are proposing to effect that change now and the purpose of this section is to provide that any person who is licensed for an unladen weight of two tons or less will be deemed to be authorised to operate vehicles up to two tons unladen weight. That will prove a considerable convenience to a number of people who had licences for unladen weights of less than two tons and who have been unable to replace their old vehicles with new vehicles of the same unladen weight, and were, consequently, debarred from continuing in the transport business.

The purpose of Section 4 is to effect a purely drafting change in the original Act. Sections 5 and 6 are designed to deal with another problem—to provide a method by which we can enforce the provisions of the Road Transport and Road Traffic Acts throughout the Saorstát on persons operating merchandise or passenger services across the Border, that is to say, persons with headquarters in the Six Counties. The only method by which we could effectively deal with breaches of the Acts by these operators would be to stop the vehicles at the Border, arrest the operators of them and interrupt the service. This would cause considerable inconvenience not merely to the persons actually detained but also to the passengers in the bus or the owners of the merchandise being carried upon the vehicle. Consequently, it was considered advisable to adopt another method. Under this method, we propose to issue licences to the persons conducting these services for importation of these vehicles into the Saorstát and to take power to withdraw these licences if, for any reason, it appears to be desirable to do so. By that device, we can secure that those persons will conform to our laws. The device is intended to be used only for that purpose. It will not cause any inconvenience to persons using these services, or to the persons operating these services except they take action which is in conflict with the statutory requirements of the State. The device is a simple one. It will prove much more convenient to operate than the only method open to us at the present time and it will enable breaches of the Road Transport Act committed by those people to be dealt with in a satisfactory manner.

With regard to the question of carrying merchandise for reward, I should like to know whether a point I have in mind arises under this Bill or not. A rather unique position arises in connection with the carrying of beet. As I understand, beet, once it is grown, ceases to be the property of the growers and becomes the property of the sugar company. The carriage of that type of merchandise must be undertaken by public carriers and if any mishap occurs in connection with the carriage—for example, if a strike occurs—the farmers would not be at liberty to carry the beet to the factories, with resultant harm to the operation of the processes of sugar manufacture. The Minister will understand what I mean by that. As the law stands, the growers would, I understand, be powerless to exert themselves to forward their beet to the factories. I am not sure that I am accurate in my presentation of the point but, if matters are as I have been led to believe, there is ground for some relaxation of the provisions—for withdrawing beet from the category of merchandise or introducing a provision whereby, in such a contingency as I have mentioned, the growers of beet would be able to devise some means of conveying their produce to the sugar factories. I am not sure whether that can be done under this Bill but it is a point that deserves consideration when dealing with the question of road transport.

I should like to know whether there is to be any duty payable in respect of licences issued under Section 5.

Would the Minister say whether there is any principle of discrimination to be applied under Sections 5 and 6. Will all those from across the Border who comply with the requirements be given licences or will the Minister make selections, as the Bill permits him to do? I suppose that is almost inevitable but I should like the Minister to tell us whether it is intended that there should be discrimination as between firm and firm on the other side of the Border or whether they will all be granted licences, provided they comply with the same conditions as are imposed on Saorstát firms, with the additional conditions proposed.

I think I have grasped the point to which Senator Milroy drew attention. It has been contended that, inasmuch as the beet, when grown, becomes the property of the sugar company, the farmer could not deliver the beet he grew himself to the factory without having a merchandise licence, as he would be carrying in his own vehicle a commodity that was not his own property. That position is met by another section of the Bill which permits a shopkeeper to deliver to the residence of a customer goods purchased by that customer in his shop. No merchandise licence is required for conveying goods in those circumstances and the position of a farmer in the circumstances mentioned would be similar. Beet becomes the property of the company when it is grown——

Not until it is paid for.

Under the terms of the contract between the company and the grower, the beet is the property of the company from the moment it is grown, whether it is paid for or not. I am satisfied that no legal difficulty whatever would arise and that there would be no prohibition or restriction upon farmers delivering beet to the factories of the company in their own vehicles. Another point arises in that connection. The contention has been made by interested parties that the railway company last year was insufficiently equipped to deal with the whole of the beet crop. There is no doubt that that contention is correct. The railway company last year could not possibly have dealt with the whole of the beet situation. In fact a serious situation might have developed in certain areas if certain individuals had not, in defiance of the law, carried beet for reward without licences. We have to prosecute these people, but, in doing so, we recognise that the transport arrangements for the conveyance of beet to the factory might have broken down if they had not done so.

The railway companies are equipping themselves with a large number of new vehicles. It is contended that these vehicles are not altogether suitable for this traffic. They are very large vehicles, mostly tractors with trailer equipment, and cannot conveniently be got into farms or into boreens which might lead to the farms. Consequently the railway company had to make arrangements with farmers to have the beet brought to particular points on main roads or placed in fields. That arrangement was not convenient to the farmer, whereas the other public carriers, with small lorries, could go anywhere and collect the beet at the point most convenient to the farmers.

The position is that we have not yet transferred to the railway company any licences confined to beet held by licensees, and we have under consideration the advisability of excluding them from any transfer of licences that may take place; in other words, to allow private carriers to deal with the carriage of beet until the railway company has additional equipment to deal with the road transport business and more experience of the operation of that business. Under the Act the power of compulsory acquisition or transfer of licences operates up to July of this year, and then for two years ceases to operate, commencing again on the same date two years afterwards. If we do not make transfers of licences before the date in July at which these transfers must be made, they cannot be transferred for two years afterwards. We have under consideration with the railway company the advisability of excluding beet from any licences transferred to them before July 1st. If we decide to do that the position will be, that anyone who is a holder of a merchandise licence will be entitled to carry beet for reward for three years without interference.

There is a difficulty in that regard that it is no harm to mention. Most of the persons engaged in the business of the carriage of beet for reward were located about Carlow. The carriage of beet for reward did not operate to any great extent in any of the other areas where factories are now established. There may be a difficulty in these areas in giving new licences to people to carry beet for reward in view of the terms of the Act, if we decide to do so. That matter is being examined. I can assure Senators that we are alive to the beet position and, in fact, have had representations from all the interested parties; that is, the people engaged in the carriage of beet, and the sugar company which is naturally concerned to ensure that supplies will not be impeded in any way.

There is another argument, and I do not know what validity there is in it, that the price of beet has been fixed for a three years' contract, and that when it was being fixed notice was taken of the existing scale of charges for transport. The railway company are charging more because they are paying standard wages to employees, whereas most of the independent operators paid very low wages indeed, where they paid any wages. A very large number of the vehicles were operated by the owners, who very rarely got more than 15/- or 20/- weekly in profits out of the business. The railway company have to pay a standard rate of wages to workers, and consequently cannot carry as cheaply as some of the small operators, so that it is contended conditions should not be changed during the operation of the present price agreement period in respect of the price of beet. It is not a very strong argument, but it was advanced. The whole question has been considered and a decision will have to be made in the near future, because the date July 1, before which the transfer must be made, is approaching. The policy will have to be decided before that.

Would that necessitate a new Bill?

No. It is a matter of deciding how the powers of the existing Act will be operated.

By orders.

The position is that the railway company can apply for the transfer of any licences, and the Minister can agree, if he is satisfied that it is in the public interest, that it should be done. Heretofore we have more or less transferred licences on application. The consideration of the public interest arises in respect of beet, and the question is whether it is sufficiently great to justify us in refusing transfers. On the question of beet, it does not necessitate special legislation. So far as Sections 5 and 6 are concerned, it is intended to discriminate. We could have under the original Act confined the business of carrying passengers to companies established in the Saorstát or persons resident here. We did not do that. We decided deliberately to allow Six-County operators to continue to serve here, and we gave them licences. We have only one means of enforcing the conditions of these licences. If an omnibus company from Derry carried passengers for reward or over roads not licensed for the carrying of passengers, at present the only way we can actually enforce the regulations is by stopping the omnibus on the border, detaining the vehicle or the driver and interrupting the service. We have no hesitation in doing that in the case of actual owners, because they have broken the law, but they may be carrying passengers who may be stranded on the frontier posts. In order to get an easier method of enforcement this device has been adopted, which will enable us temporarily to suspend a service, if necessary, or permanently withdraw that service when there has been persistent and continuous violation of the legal requirements here. The great majority of the cross-border operators are doing their best to comply with the requirements of our laws, but there are one or two who have to be taught the necessity for doing so, and this device enables us to do that.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 5th June, 1935.
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