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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 31 Jul 1935

Vol. 20 No. 11

Unemployment Assistance (Amendment) Bill, 1935—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to bring about certain amendments in the Unemployment Assistance Act which circumstances have shown to be necessary. In the first place, it is desired to establish machinery which will enable applicants, who are dissatisfied with the assessment of their means by unemployment assistance officers, to have their appeals considered and determined expeditiously. An applicant who has been refused a qualification certificate, or who disagrees with the valuation of his means made by the unemployment assistance officer, has, under the Principal Act, a right of appeal to the Appeals Committee, which Committee sits in Dublin and consists of officers from the Department of Finance, the Department of Industry and Commerce, and the Department of Local Government and Public Health. That machinery would be quite adequate in normal circumstances, but, in the year in which the Act came into operation, a large number of cases were refused, for one reason or another, and an equally large number of persons were dissatisfied with the assessment of their means, and, in all such cases, the right of appeal was exercised, with the result that some 35,000 appeals were made and the machinery available was totally inadequate to deal with them. Certain temporary measures were adopted to try to ease that situation, but it has been found necessary to set up a new method of determining these appeals. The method proposed here is the appointment of appeal officers who will come in between the unemployment assistance officer and the Appeals Committee with the right to determine finally the appeal of any applicant, but also with the right to pass on the appeal of the Appeals Committee if, in the opinion of the appeals officer, any question of general principle arises to be considered. In any event, the determinations made by the appeals officers will be based upon the decisions of the Appeals Committee, so that there will be uniformity in the application of the law.

Another amendment which it is desired to effect is one designed to enable any person who has been receiving unemployment assistance to get work, not exceeding six weeks in duration, without interrupting the continuity of his claim to assistance. At the present time, a person who receives two days' employment, interrupting two periods of unemployment of not less than two days, is deemed to be continuously unemployed and does not have to undergo the waiting period of a week before again receiving unemployment assistance, but if such a person gets three or four days' work, or any period in excess of two days, then, in order to be entitled to receive unemployment assistance he has, under the present Act, to wait for a certain period before getting assistance. That has operated in the way of deterring such a man from taking short periods of employment as they offered. Under the new arrangement, persons receiving unemployment assistance will be allowed to take work up to six weeks in duration without losing unemployment assistance except for the days upon which they were actually employed. Although that change may, by itself, increase the cost of unemployment assistance to some extent, we hope that its effect in encouraging people to seek for and obtain short periods of work that may be available will have a counteracting effect. Furthermore, it is intended to allow persons to draw unemployment assistance or unemployment insurance benefit to which they may be entitled, at their own discretion. Ordinarily, of course, if the amount of benefit to which the persons concerned are entitled is considerable, they will draw it because it is paid at considerably higher rates, but as the former Act stands at the present moment, if the person concerned does some work and gets, let us say, one insurance stamp placed to his credit, he is in an unfortunate position because he has to wait one week to get his insurance benefit, and then has to wait another week before he gets his unemployment assistance benefit. That also operated to deter workers from taking short periods of employment. By allowing them to draw unemployment assistance, if they so choose, we get over that deterrent. We avoid the necessity for a second waiting week and we allow the worker to accumulate these occasional insurance stamps which he may be able to get until they are of a sufficient number to make it worth his while to claim benefit on them.

Another one of the major changes which it is proposed to effect arises under Section 11. At the present time, when a person's means are assessed, the total of the determined weekly value of the means is stated in his qualification certificate, and when he becomes entitled to unemployment assistance he gets the scheduled rate of assistance less the amount of means, stated in his certificate, plus 2/-. In other words, 2/- of the means assessed are not calculated. There is a margin, under the existing Act, allowed, which was intended originally to provide a certain elasticity, or a certain margin for error of 2/-, and a person who has means amounting to 2/- in the week, or of any lesser sum, is entitled to unemployment assistance at the full rate. That means that such a person, with means calculated at 2/- a week, is, in a sense, better off than a person with no means at all and who gets the same amount of assistance. In any case, it was considered that the margin allowed was too wide and that a smaller margin would serve the purpose for which the section in the original Act was designed to serve. It is true that there is a substantially wider margin of uncalculated means under the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Bill and the Old Age Pensions Act, but in this legislation we think it is desirable that we should eliminate items of cost of that kind. The main principle of the legislation is to provide assistance at the rates set out in the Princical Act, to persons who, during unemployment, are temporarily unable to provide for themselves. The individual amounts which can be made available will depend on the success of the Department in eliminating non-essential items of cost. We have contemplated the abolition of uncalculated means altogether, but we decided that it would be unwise to do so at this stage because there is a certain amount of uncertainty in the calculation of means, and the total abolition of that margin could not be considered until, at least, the arrears of appeals have been wiped out and all the cases that gave rise to appeals have been recorded and an examination made of the different factors that produced disagreement, whereever there is a disagreement, between the unemployment assistance officer on the one hand and the Appeals Committee on the other hand.

The other changes proposed to be effected are not of such importance. We are proposing to include, as dependents of their parents, invalid sons and daughters over 18 years of age. The purpose of that is to correct a certain error in the original Act. In the original Act a person can claim, as dependents, invalid sisters and brothers who are maintained by him, but he is not allowed to claim for his own sons or daughters, even if, through invalidity, they are unable to provide for themselves. The whole section is being repealed, and being re-enacted in a slightly different form: first, to effect that change, and, secondly, to get uniformity in the terms in which dependency is defined. There are three or four different expressions used in the Principal Act. They are all being changed in this Bill to the term "wholly or mainly supported by." Furthermore, the section, in its new form, excludes from the list of dependents the wife of an applicant for assistance where the wife has a pension or private means capable of supporting herself. That also is to correct a mistake in the preparation of the original Act.

Senators are aware that different rates of assistance are payable in different areas. The rate in the county boroughs and in the borough of Dun Laoghaire is higher than the rate in urban areas having a population in excess of 7,000 and, in those areas, it is higher than the rate paid in the rest of the Saorstát. As the original Act stands, if the boundary of a county borough were extended—and there is, in fact, I think, a proposal to extend the boundary of the borough of Dun Laoghaire at the present time—or if in consequence of the census we take next year, a town at present below 7,000 population were to be revealed to be a town with a population in excess of 7,000, the position would be that persons in the area added to the county borough, and persons in those towns would not be entitled to unemployment assistance at all. The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that they will become entitled to assistance at the rates applicable to the areas.

The other changes are of still lesser importance. There is provision whereby persons who obtain unemployment assistance by deliberately making false or misleading statements or by concealing material facts will not be permitted to retain such assistance. There is also a provision by which public assistance authorities can, in certain circumstances, recover excess relief paid by them. If a person holding a qualification certificate applies for unemployment assistance, and is held by the unemployment assistance officer to be disqualified on any of the grounds—that he is not unemployed; that he is not seeking work; that he is not available for work or any of the other reasons—that person has a right of appeal to the Court of Referees and if the court decides in his favour, he becomes entitled to unemployment assistance as from the date of his claim. In the meantime, however, he may have been assisted by the local authority and may have received home assistance for a period of some weeks. As it stands, he not merely gets that home assistance, but at the end of the period he gets a lump sum representing the arrears of unemployment assistance due to him. We are providing that out of that lump sum the home assistance authority can be recouped the amount of home assistance paid. The other changes are minor. Some are merely designed to bring the Unemployment Assistance Act into conformity with the Unemployment Insurance Acts for convenience of administration and others dealing with such minor matters as the definition of a day, certain changes designed to facilitate the determination of appeals, and other matters of that kind.

I can see that this Bill embodies necessary amendments to the Principal Act, but I think that in Section 11 the Minister has a blemish on his escutcheon. The Minister spoke about elasticity—whatever that means in legislation—but I should like to have it a little more lucid. It does seem to be mean and paltry to take these means into account in respect of uncalculated means. Certainly I think that any person whose only income or means is two shillings is destitute, and to reduce that by 50 per cent. is something which is repugnant to one's sense of social correctness. I should like to know to what extent, if any, the Minister anticipates a saving in that respect, and also what additional expense the operation of this amending Bill will entail. I think that the figure in respect of the original Act was £1,600,000, and, obviously, the introduction of this amending Bill suggests a miscalculation in the estimate of the cost of the Principal Act. I do not think the Minister has given us any information at all of what the additional cost of the Bill will be, but in his statement in the other House he indicated that it would involve increased expenditure on the Exchequer. I think it would be interesting to know what is the extent of that increase, and also what is the likelihood of a saving by this reduction of the 2/- to 1/-. I hope someone else will deal with this matter which does seem to me to jar on one's sense of good taste, to say the least—the State making statutory provision for reducing uncalculated means from 2/- to 1/-. I hope someone else will supplement what I have said in that respect.

There is one other point on which I wish to be clear, with regard to claims made in consequence of a claim being disallowed by the competent committee and which, on appeal, result in favour of the applicant. Is the payment on these claims retrospective? There is provision that the recovery of assistance given under false pretences shall have retrospective effect, but how it is to be recovered from destitute people will provide a puzzle for the Minister. I should like to know if there will be retrospective effect in the case of a claim found to be genuine. If a person's claim is disallowed and if, on appeal, his claim is found to be genuine, does he get payment from the time he originally made the claim or does it start from the time his claim is allowed?

With regard to the cost of the measure, the savings that will arise under some heads and the increased expenditure that will arise under others, I should like to impress upon the Senator the extraordinary difficulty of making even an estimate, having regard to the limited experience the Department has had of the working of the Act. It only came into operation last year and barely into full operation this year. On the 1st May last year, unemployment ment assistance became payable but no more than a small proportion of those who claimed were able to get assistance on that date, because their claims had to be considered and the necessary administrative action taken before they became entitled to assistance. It was only towards the end of the year that any considerable number of the applicants were, in fact, receiving assistance. Because of that inadequate experience of the operation of the Act, there is considerable difficulty in making estimates apart from other factors. On the experience of last year the reduction in non-calculated means will produce a saving of £180,000 in a full year on the assumption that there will be the same number of people receiving assistance, and the same proportion of that number of persons with means, and that the duration of each claim is the same. These are factors that will vary considerably and will be influenced this year by the Employments Period Orders, which have been made, and the second of which is now in operation, and under which persons holding land in excess of £4 valuation, or persons who are single, and without dependents in rural areas, are debarred from receiving unemployment assistance until the end of September. At any rate there will not be any saving like that in the present year or in any full year for that matter arising from the operation of this Bill as a whole, because other proposals will be operating to increase the cost of unemployment assistance. One cannot say to what extent the new definition of dependents will increase the claims of persons now receiving assistance. And the operations of the new appeals machinery will have the effect of increasing the cost, but no one can attempt to forecast any figures as to what the increase will be. The estimated cost of unemployment assistance in this year was £1,600,000. That was the estimate prepared in the beginning of the year. But a certain proportion of that amount will be recoverable by the Department as appropriation-in-aid—£250,000 from the unemployment insurance fund and, roughly, £200,000 from certain local authorities.

Since the Estimates were prepared, as stated in the Budget speech of the Minister for Finance, other factors have become apparent, and it is estimated that these other factors will reduce the cost of the scheme this year from £1,600,000 to £1,300,000. These are three in number: (1) the requirement under which persons employed upon public works, financed in whole or in part out of State funds, must be persons receiving unemployment assistance where such persons are available, and the increased provision for public works this year; (2) the Employment Periods Order to which I have referred, and (3) to some extent, this measure. These three factors are, it is thought, likely to reduce the cost of unemployment assistance this year from the estimated figures by £300,000. But even assuming figures by £300,000. But even assuming that the figure was one that did provide a considerable measure of estimation it must be remembered there was no previous experience, and one can never tell, with certainty, what the results, in any year, of a scheme of this kind are likely to be. The original estimated cost was, roughly, £1,300,000. When the unemployment assistance scheme was devised it was thought it would cost in the year 1934 in full operation the sum of £1,300,000. But that figure, although it was, in fact, shown to be accurate was itself the result of certain mistakes. The number of persons without means who became entitled to assistance at the full rate proved to be less than we had estimated, whereas the number of persons with means, namely, landholders, and sons of landholders, proved to be considerably greater. Thus, the total number of persons receiving assistance was more than we thought it would be, but the average payment per person was less. We got the estimated results, but by a different method from what we calculated.

With regard to the retrospective payment to persons appealing against the basis of the unemployment assistance officers' decisions, it is necessary to clear up what Senator Milroy referred to. A person when refused a qualification certificate can appeal against that, and also against the assessment of his means as stated in the certificate to the Unemployment Appeals Committee. But any change in the position resulting from the decision of the Committee, either as to the granting of certificates, or the assessment of means on a different basis, does not operate retrospectively for that person. But the Senator will understand that a person actually applying for a certificate, or appealing against an assessment of means might not be entitled to unemployment assistance; such a person might be employed. Any person whose means are less than the means prescribed in the first Act is entitled to a certificate, and thus becomes entitled to receive unemployment assistance when unemployed. But when a person has got a certificate, and becomes unemployed, and applies for payment of assistance, if refused, he appeals to the local Court of Referees. This is a body consisting of a neutral chairman—a gentleman who is a solicitor, or some other such person—and an equal number of representatives of workers and employers living in the area. That court decides on the appeal subject to a further appeal in certain cases to the umpire. If that decision is favourable to the applicant, the payment is retrospective.

How long is such an inquiry likely to last?

In the case of appeals to the Appeals Committee, there are arrears of appeals which have accumulated from the time that the Act came into operation. There are 30,000 appeals out of a total of 35,000 awaiting decision. The Appeals Committee only covered 5,000, but it does not follow that the remaining 30,000 cases are all cases of hardship, because arising out of the decisions by the Appeals Committee in the 5,000 cases I have referred to, the officers throughout the country were asked to reconsider their decisions, and in 9,000 cases they have revised their decisions in favour of the applicants. But it is because these appeals are there, and because the existing machinery is inadequate to deal with them, that this Bill is introduced for the purpose of establishing new machinery.

Why should there be that differentiation? Why should there be retrospective payment in the second class of appeal and no retrospective payment in the first type with which the Minister dealt?

The Senator has apparently formed a wrong impression. A person might have a good claim to a qualification certificate and still not be entitled to unemployment assistance. Any person can have his qualification certificate and in due course every worker will have a qualification certificate, and if there is any alteration in his means he will be entitled to appeal to that Committee to get his means re-assessed. But such persons might not be entitled to payment of assistance at all, because they may not be unemployed, they may not be seeking employment or they may be otherwise disqualified. It is only when they prove their eligibility to payment that their claim becomes valid. If there is any dispute, retrospective payment is made to the date of the claim for assistance but not to the date of the application for the qualifying certificate, which is a different matter.

Question agreed to. Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 1st August.

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