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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Aug 1935

Vol. 20 No. 12

Unemployment Assistance (Amendment) Bill, 1935—Committee and Final Stages.

Sections 1 to 10, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 11.
Question proposed—"That Section 11 stand part of the Bill."

I am opposing this section. In view of the reproof that was so tactfully administered to me yesterday by Senator Lynch, I want to guard against saying anything that might jeopardise the existence of this House, the preservation of which is, I am sure, as dear to Senator Lynch's heart as it is to my own. In any criticism I have to put forward of this section, I want to guard against anything that might be construed as political attack on Government policy. I think this section might, with advantage to the self-respect of the Oireachtas and to the prestige of the Government, be eliminated from this Bill. I listened carefully to what the Minister said yesterday in reply to the few comments I made on this and I have reflected overnight on his observations. That reflection has not, to my mind, brought me any nearer to seeing wisdom, justification or necessity for the proposal to reduce uncalculated means from 2/- to 1/-.

I said yesterday that it was a mean and paltry proposal, and to me it is something very like robbing the poor-box. I believe that if the Minister had embodied a definite proposal to rob the poor-box in this Bill instead of this proposal, it would be a preferable proposition. What is it? The stark reality of this proposal is that the destitute element of this country shall be asked to contribute anything from £150,000 to £180,000 to help the Minister for Finance to balance his Budget. That is the exact reality of this proposal. The Minister yesterday mentioned the figure of £180,000 in reply to a query of mine as to the saving which this section might result in, that is to say, that by cutting from 2/- to 1/- people whose means are 2/- per week, the Minister can get £180,000 from that class of people. It seems to me an inhuman proposal, and I am certainly amazed that when such a proposal comes before this House, directed against this particular class, not a single member of the Party in this House which claims to represent and speak for that section is here to voice objection to it.

Mr. Healy

They are at the Trades Congress in Derry.

It is very fortunate in one sense. It would be embarrassing to the Government if that Congress was not on in Derry, because that Party would then have no excuse for being absent and the proposal might have been defeated, and then we would have the Fianna Fáil Government defeated by a combination of Labour and Fine Gael. It would be enough to make——

The angels weep.

——the angels weep. As I say, there is no justification and no necessity for this. The Minister is a very resourceful person and he may say—and I have no doubt that he has in mind already the idea of replying in these words: "Where is the money to come from—this £180,000— which we require to finance this Bill?" When the tax revenue of this country was something like £2,000,000 less than at present, the Minister said that taxation could be reduced by £3,000,000, without injuring the efficiency of the Government machine. If a revenue £2,000,000 less than the present revenue was susceptible, in 1932, of £3,000,000 economies, surely, on the Minister's reasoning, the present expenditure is capable of an economy of £5,000,000, so that he should have no difficulty in getting the necessary funds to finance this measure, without asking the poor, unfortunate, destitute people to contribute anything from £150,000 to £180,000 to put it through. I do not like to use strong language. I prefer to express myself in a mild and restrained manner. But this seems to me a species of mean, petty, mercenary action that the Minister should be ashamed to sponsor. It is something that I should not like to be associated with, and I hope I shall not come to be a voice crying in the wilderness protesting against Section 11 of this Bill.

I think we might leave it to the Minister to answer Senator Milroy who has entirely missed the point of this section. It is a surprise to me that there ever should have been in the Principal Act such a clause as sub-section (2) of Section 17. What was that section? It was a section which provided that in calculating the means of a person, no account was to be taken of the first 2/-. It is a remarkable sort of section to put into an Act of Parliament, that in making your calculation, you should have a margin for error of 2/-. The Minister understood the reason: There was so much work that things had to be done in a rough and ready sort of way so that we were to allow a margin of 2/-. That is wrong accountancy and wrong finance. If you want to give a benefit to people give it in the ordinary way. Increase the benefit if you like. The meaning of Section 11 is that what I think was wrong in the ordinary Act, that is allowing a sum of 2/- as a margin of error, is now reduced to 1/-. I suppose in the process of time that section will be cut out altogether and that the calculation will be much more accurate.

What does Senator Comyn mean by margin of error?

I mean an error in this sense, that in making an allowance of 1/- or 2/- not to be calculated, the result might be inaccurate or hasty.

Not at all.

There are several Acts dealing with social legislation. We had the Old Age Pensions Act, but, so far as I remember, there is no section similar to this allowing for an uncalculated margin of one or two shillings. In my opinion Senator Milroy misunderstands this section and on that misunderstanding he raises a bogey, and, like Don Quixote, he is tilting at a windmill all the time.

It is not correct to say that the destitute element of the population are being asked to contribute anything towards the balancing of the Budget. Persons who are destitute are not interested in this section, and are not affected by the section. The rates of assistance which are payable to such persons, in accordance with their circumstances, are set out in the schedule to the principal Act, and these rates are not being changed. Any person who is unemployed, in the sense in which we usually interpret that word—that is any person who is ordinarily dependent for his livelihood upon the wages he earns, and who, through no fault of his own, is unable to obtain his livelihood, or to get an opportunity of work, will not be one ½d. the worse for this section. The purpose of the amendment is to remedy, to some extent, an anomaly which resulted from the principal Act.

As the law stands at present, a person who has property calculated in accordance with the methods laid down under the principal Act, equal in value to 2/- a week is, when unemployed, better off than the person who has no property at all. The alteration of that position, not entirely, but to some extent, while undoubtedly it makes possible a saving to the Exchequer, also makes possible the utilisation of that saving for the benefit of the section of the people who require assistance more urgently than those persons who possess property.

This Bill contains a number of sections. Under every other section of the Bill except Section 11 increased charges will arise. The scheme of assistance is improved so as to operate more generously on behalf of the unemployed, and those who through no reason of their own are not in a position to earn their livelihood. These improvements, and others which may be enacted in the future, would not be possible unless the total cost of the entire scheme could be kept as low as possible. We are helping to keep down that total cost by the elimination of unnecessary provisions of this kind. These provisions are unnecessary because the amount of assistance, which the Oireachtas decided to be made available for unemployed persons, is set out in the schedule of the principal Act, and is available and will continue to be available for such persons. It is untrue to say that the unemployed persons are being asked to contribute £150,000. Yesterday I impressed upon the Senator that it was not possible to take one section of this Bill and to calculate the financial effects of it while ignoring all other sections. The Bill, as a whole, is going to effect certain changes in the finance of the scheme. But whatever saving may be effected, under this head, the changes under other heads are going to involve increased expenditure; and the State is not going to secure £150,000 as the result of this measure.

It is rather peculiar that we should have a member of the Fine Gael Party that sought by other methods, even by the methods of obstruction, to prevent any money being voted for the unemployed, now endeavouring to increase the amount. It is another indication, of many we have already had, of the inconsistency of the action of members of that Party. The unemployed assistance scheme is new; it came into operation for the first time last year. It involves a charge of one kind or another upon public funds—the Central Fund, the funds of local authorities or the Unemployment Insurance Fund, amounting approximately to £1,300,000. It is a generous provision to make in addition to the other measures adopted for the relief of hardships arising from unemployment. I might point out that it was provided last year for the first time, and it ill becomes a member of the Party that held office for ten years, and made no such provision for the relief of the destitute, now to appear in the role of the advocate of more and more expenditure for that purpose.

Section 11 of this Bill removes an anomaly in the principal Act. Logically, we could wipe out entirely the provision for uncalculated means. We are not doing that, because there is still some necessity for allowing what has been described as a margin for error in the calculation of means. It is not that the system of calculation is unsound, but there are difficulties in determining the weekly value derived from a holding of land, from the ownership of certain farm stock or other property of that kind. With the best will in the world, or the best system of calculation in the world, there will be certain errors in calculation and a certain amount of discrepancy between the determinations of one officer engaged on that work and another officer, and in order to ensure that undue hardship will not arise from such causes this margin is allowed; but the margin need not be as high as in the principal Act.

If we had originally made a margin of 1/- nobody would have questioned it. While the principal Act was before the Oireachtas nobody proposed to increase or decrease the margin set out there. It was put in because we felt a wide margin was required during the first year of the operation of the Act. Having regard to the experience we have gained and the efficacy of the machinery now available, following the appointment of a number of investigation officers at the beginning of the year to exercise a close supervision over the administration of the Act, and particularly having regard to the other provisions of the Bill, the change now proposed is in every way desirable, but it inflicts no hardship on the class of people whom it was primarily desired to aid by the enactment of the unemployment assistance scheme.

Sections 11 to 21, inclusive, and the Title agreed to. Bill reported without amendment.

I move:—

That, notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in Standing Order 85, the Report Stage of the Unemployment Assistance (Amendment) Bill, 1935, be taken to-day.

I second.

Question agreed to.

Question proposed:—"That the Bill be received for final consideration."

I want to raise one point in connection with this Bill. I think in the discussion on the Second Reading yesterday the Minister said that it was not possible to give an estimate of the approximate cost of this measure. Another Minister in connection with another Bill referred to the difficulty of estimating the cost of administration. I do not know whether that is an inevitable phase of this class of thing, but it seems to me that it is undesirable that legislative proposals should be brought before the House and launched on the country before the Minister is able to give even a tentative or approximate estimate of what the cost is going to be. Surely it is not beyond the resources of the Government to ascertain what these things are likely to inflict on the community in the way of additional burdens. The point strikes me as of great importance. I am referring particularly to this Bill, but it seems not to be an isolated case. It appears to me that Ministers are taking steps without counting the cost, taking leaps in the dark so far as finance is concerned, and that is an undesirable trait in legislative tactics or Government policy. It is undesirable that proposals should be passed here without the responsible Ministers being in a position to give at least an approximate figure of the cost of such proposals to the community.

I do not know what difficulties may have arisen in estimating the cost of other measures, but in the case of this Bill it is clear that an accurate estimation is impossible. We are not dealing here with commodities or cattle, saleable goods or articles, the number and value of which can easily be ascertained. We are dealing with human beings and it is impossible to foretell how human factors are going to operate. We are altering the definition of continuous employment in order to induce people and make it easier for them to accept short periods of employment when they offer, or even to look for such employment knowing it is not going to involve any interruption of their claim to unemployment assistance or involve them in loss of any kind.

That particular change would cost, say, £25,000 if it had no effect on the actions of the persons drawing unemployment assistance; but we believe it is going to have effect on their actions, though to what extent we are not able to say. We believe the number of claims will be reduced by reason of the fact that a number of these persons will get more work for short periods than would be the case if this measure were not enacted. Nobody can say to what extent that will operate. We know the maximum cost will be £25,000, but we believe it will be considerably less. The same applies to every other section. As regards the question of means, the financial effects on the basis of last year can be easily calculated. The figure given is based on the assumption that the circumstances this year will be precisely the same as the circumstances last year and that assumption, we know, will not be borne out; but what the circumstances will be, nobody can foretell with any certainty. We are not in a position to produce any estimate other than an approximate figure, which may or may not be reliable.

Question agreed to.

Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—agreed to.

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