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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Mar 1936

Vol. 20 No. 31

Dáil Eireann Loans and Funds (Amendment) Bill, 1936—(Certified Money Bill).—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is two-fold and both aims are simple. The first is to extend the final date for the lodgment of applications for repayment to the 30th June, 1936, and the second is to provide for the audit of the accounts of the repayment office by the Controller and Auditor-General and to ensure that the report of the Controller and Auditor-General will be laid before Dáil Eireann in due course.

The House may be interested to learn the impression which the action of the Oireachtas in authorising the repayment of this loan has created abroad and, in that connection, I think I cannot do better than read for the House an editorial which appeared in the Saturday Evening Post of 9th November of last year. The Saturday Evening Post, as I am sure most Senators are aware, is a journal which enjoys a very wide circulation not only in the United States of America but in Great Britain and Ireland and English-speaking countries generally. It is a responsible journal therefore and one which may be described as an organ of opinion in matters of this sort. The editorial is headed: “Irish Free State Pays Up,” and is as follows:

"At a time when so many attitudes and policies throughout the world are well calculated to arouse both fear and censure, it is gratifying to call attention to conduct which deserves only praise. We refer to the action of the Irish Free State in voluntarily paying both principal and interest to bondholders in this country whose claim was moral and legal. This action is contrary to that frequently followed under similar circumstances and larger powers have taken advantage of much smaller excuses to default in payment. To appreciate the full meaning of the good faith displayed, it is necessary to recite even, in at least skeleton form, the background of circumstances. At a general election in November, 1918, the Sinn Fein Party, which had previously held only a handful of seats, swept the country and pledged itself to establish a republic. A constitution was drawn up, a Cabinet elected, and Eamon de Valera, the last surviving senior commander of the republican forces in the rebellion of 1916, was elected President. However, many of the leaders, including de Valera, were actually in jail at the time. The republican forces were supported only by the subscriptions of their adherents, since the public revenues were in the hands of the British. Finally, de Valera escaped from jail and, disguised as a stoker, reached the United States in the late winter of 1919. Here, and in Canada, Central America and South America he sold 6,000,000 dollars of bonds to descendants of Irish immigrants and to other sympathisers with his cause. These bonds were not issued by a Government which was recognised by other nations or which had any legal standing at the time. To many, the struggle in Ireland was merely another of the long series of rebellions against British authority, all of which had been failures. Rarely has an issue of bonds had less apparent investment security. Within a couple of years, the Irish and the British drew up a treaty of peace, but the republican forces split. Civil war followed, and it was not until a number of years later that the de Valera forces triumphed. Meanwhile, the external loan sold in this country was not recognised, although, following litigation, an American court ordered the 2,500,000 dollars, which had been left on deposit in this country, distributed pro rata to the original subscribers, giving them 58 cents on the dollar. A very large number of the original subscribers—in fact two-thirds of the total—failed to put in any claims for the 58 cents award. However, the Government now in power in Ireland decided to open a repayment office in New York and to advertise in practically every State that it was prepared to offer those who had never put in any claims for the 58 cents a total of 1.25 dollars for each dollar subscribed, while to those who had received their 58 cents it stood ready to pay 67 cents more. Now, it must be kept in mind that a great many of the subscribers regarded their subscriptions, not as an investment, but as a gift to old Ireland. Only two persons subscribed for as much as 10,000 dollars and only four for 5,000 dollars. But there were 28,000 who subscribed for 50 dollars each, and no less than 237,000 who gave ten dollars apiece. Though great numbers of subscribers never expected any return, it can be said truthfully that the repayments have been made at a time which was extremely convenient to most of the recipients. That, however, is not the point. What matters is that this small country has met its debt of honour and set an example which more than one great world power might well observe and meditate upon.”

That seems to me a full justification of everything that has been done with regard to the redemption of the Dáil Eireann External Loan. It was mentioned in that quotation that there were 237,000 subscribers with amounts of ten dollars apiece. Every effort has been made to get in contact with those subscribers, by newspaper advertisement and otherwise. In each advertisement we definitely called the attention of those subscribers under whose notice it might come to the fact that the Oireachtas had fixed the 31st August, 1934, as the final date. Notwithstanding this intimation we found after the date fixed by statute had closed that no less than 15,000 new applications for repayments were received. That is to say, they have come in since the 31st August, 1934. When this Bill becomes law it is our intention to repay those 15,000 claims and to readvertise once again in the States of the American Union that we are prepared to receive applications up to the 30th June of this year, and that applications which are received before that date and which on investigation prove to be well-founded and valid applications will be discharged in the same way as the applications which were received under the original Act.

When we have done that we will feel that we have done everything that honour and honesty demand we should do to meet our obligations under these loans. Consequently, I do not think it will be possible for any person to say that we have not taken every step which the circumstances warrant and which, as I have said already, honour would oblige to bring our offer to redeem the bonds under the notice of those who would be entitled to be recouped for the advances they made. I do not think, however, that it will be possible for any person to allege that we have done anything else than lived up to and fully merited the very high praise which has been bestowed upon us by this very responsible American journal. I merely quoted that as one example of the remarks which have appeared in numerous newspapers in America commending us for the actions we have taken, and saying that we have set an honourable example to much more powerful and much more wealthy States than ours. It is our boast that we are honest people, that we honour the obligations which we feel have been rightly contracted in our name; we are taking no more than an honest means of stating what has been done in this regard.

The Minister's opening speech on this Bill has not, I think, been sufficiently explanatory, notwithstanding his quotation from the article in the Saturday Evening Post which I do not think correctly states the facts, especially in one particular where it states that no recognition was taken in America of these bonds until the advent of the de Valera Government. I have no desire to exaggerate the seriousness of the step which was taken when the Government determined to redeem these bonds, whether in the hands of the original subscribers or of the assignees who offered merely shadowy consideration. But I think that the people of the country should be made aware of what is happening. These bonds were issued by a republican Dáil. They were to be redeemed at face value plus interest on the establishment of an Irish republic. That was definitely and explicitly set out on the face of each bond. Portion of the money accruing from the bond issue remained in America after the split.

The Cosgrave Government endeavoured to obtain that money for the State, undertaking, at the same time, to repay the subscribers. The action of the Cosgrave Government was resisted by the nominees of Mr. de Valera, as he was then. The case made in the American courts was that the Cosgrave Government were not the successors of the Republican Dáil and that they were not entitled either to get control of the money or to redeem the bonds. I ask Senators to remember that the Cosgrave Government were acting on behalf of the State and not in their own political interest. The American court directed that the money should be distributed pro rata amongst the subscribers less the costs of the legal proceedings. These costs have cost this State £100,000, for though the judgment of the court was that the costs should be taken out of the amount subscribed, I understand that the bonds are now being honoured in full and that, there fore, the costs of the proceedings comes out of the pockets of the ordinary taxpayers.

Having opposed the attempt to obtain the moneys for this State Mr. de Valera procured assignments of a number of these bonds to himself for investment in the Party newspaper or by way of subscription to the weekly edition of the Party newspaper. In securing these assignments a letter was circulated which represented that Professor Tierney was one of those in favour of the establishment of a Party newspaper—he being at the time a member of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. Having secured the assignments, Mr. de Valera on attaining to office proceeds to do precisely what he contended in the American courts his predecessors were not entitled to do— that is, to honour the bonds at their full face value.

These moneys are payable only on the establishment of an Irish republic. But without taking the trouble to establish the republic, our republican Government proposed to pay over these State moneys to President de Valera for investment in the Irish Press newspaper. The present Bill seeks to extend the date up to which applications for repayment may be made. These are the facts so far as I am aware. The Minister will correct me if I have been guilty of any error. I do not wish to dwell on the transaction, because it might impair public confidence in government. But I do say, however, that for a Government to allow itself to be made even a conduit pipe for the transfer of State moneys to its own Party political enterprises is opposed to public policy and sets a highly dangerous and a highly objectionable precedent. In this case the Minister for Finance will be issuing State moneys to the President of the Executive Council for transfer to the newspaper of the Fianna Fáil Party.

If the Cosgrave Government had proposed to act similarly in respect of any of the other Dublin newspapers we know the howl which would have gone up from the present Minister and his associates about the misappropriation of public moneys. If the Minister for Finance will undertake that the money to be paid under this Bill will go direct to the subscribers or their personal representatives, to be dealt with as they think fit, I shall vote for the Bill. If he insists that public moneys be devoted to the sustenance of a Party newspaper I shall vote against the Bill, because I believe he will be doing his Party a monetary service not at the cost of his own supporters but at the cost of all the citizens of the State.

The Minister said that 15,000 claims had come in since the former closing date. He did not give us any indication of the amount of money that these claims represented, or of the amount which it is estimated the claims to come in as a result of the passage of this Bill will come to. I have always recognised that these American subscribers had to be repaid. I need not go into the grounds for the delay. That has already been referred to. But for the litigation that took place payment would have been made a considerable time ago. The Minister said that, in making repayment and giving this extra time, the Saorstát was doing all that honour and honesty could demand. I do not think that that is an overstatement. Nobody who subscribed for the bonds in America can have any ground for complaint. It has been pointed out that the actual statement on the face of the bond was such that the State, if it so chose, could say that the situation under which repayment was to be made had not yet arisen. I do not think that that would have been right and I do not think it would have been fair to the subscribers or that, in the long run, it would have been of benefit to the State. Although the country is divided, and various other factors could be pleaded as a reason for not paying, I think that when we have established a State with full control of its finances and full sovereignty at home and abroad, it is only right that those who subscribed and who helped as well as they could to bring about the establishment of that State should have repayment made to them. At the same time, as has been indicated, the claim of subscribers is, at best, a moral claim and it is not a moral claim of a completely irresistible character. The payment that is being made is payment of a debt of honour and it is being made in a spirit of considerable generosity. There is, in fact, an element of the ex gratia payment in this repayment of the Dáil Bonds. I do not think the State should make any attempt to escape payment, but because of the whole nature of the matter payment is a very definite personal recognition of the position and of the services of those who subscribed to the original loan in America. It is not purely a financial transaction by any means and it is not being carried out on the basis of strict finance.

I want to speak, so far as possible, in an impartial and non-party way and I do not want to generate any heat. But I do feel that we are not looking at this matter rightly if we ignore the personal element in it and if we try to treat it as an ordinary, financial transaction—the redemption of an ordinary, marketable stock. Before any question arose as to the repayment of the American loan and when it was only a question of the repayment of the home loan, we thought it necessary to take an interest in the subscribers. At one time, it came to my notice that certain people were offering to buy up the certificates of the home loan at a cheap rate. It was brought to my notice, for instance, that one member of the Oireachtas—he was a supporter of the Party to which I belonged—was offering, or proposing, to buy up certificates at, I think 18/- or some such sum. These certificates were later redeemed at 28/-. I saw the member in question and spoke to him in the plainest possible terms. I told him that, if this sort of thing went on, he would discover that he had lost the 18/- or whatever he was proposing to pay because we were certainly not prepared to allow the subscribers to become the victims of a money-making traffic, such as that on which he proposed to enter. I made it clear to him and to others—I spoke in the plainest possible terms—that there was no use in their trying to play on the impatience or despair of the people, owing to the delays which were inevitable, and trying to get certificates at a small price which afterwards might be redeemed at 28/-. I should like to say, in this connection, that while I was always in favour of the redemption of the American bonds, if I had had responsibility, I certainly would have adopted an attitude which would be logically in keeping with the attitude which I adopted in connection with the question to which I have just referred. As this was payment of a debt of honour, as it was a repayment into which the personal element entered, in which there was a recognition of service at a time of national need and national emergency, I should certainly have taken the line that payment should only be made to the actual subscribers or their families or personal representatives, or, possibly, to people who had bought at some approved price which would represent the full cash value of the bond at the time of purchase. The Government has not adopted that course, and I think it is regrettable, if we take the long view, that they did not adopt it.

I do not want to pursue the matter but I think that, if the Government had adopted some such course, the sums invested in the Irish Press might not have been diminished by 10 per cent. The losses to this paper, in which the Government is interested, would probably not have been very great and, if that course had been adopted, it would have removed a ground of criticism which, in spite of the heat which has been shown, is a real ground of criticism. It is extremely regrettable that the Government did not adopt the course of having most careful regard to the interests of the persons who subscribed. Paying out money by way of subscription is quite different from agreeing to the assignment of money which one has not got, either in cash or in the form of an ordinary, marketable security. Some people would be prepared to assign a claim to something which they have not got but their attitude would be entirely different if they had the money in hand. As the line of repayment was taken, it was due to these subscribers that they should be put under no form, even of moral coercion to assign money which was being repaid to them.

It strikes me that the arguments put forward by Senator Blythe and Senator MacLoughlin are based altogether on an imaginary case. They seemed to indicate that people in America are talking about victimisation. The Senators themselves do not know anything about that, and, therefore, I think it would be very interesting to know if any complaints have been received from people on the other side, complaints, say, that something irregular was being done, or that some suggestions had been made that were calculated to mislead people. It seems to me that a man who is the holder of a bond has a perfect right to do what he thinks fit with it. He surely has the right to sell it at any price he wishes. Senator Blythe told us of some party who wanted to buy bonds at a deflated value. If the holder wished to sell at that value he had a perfect right to do so. That kind of thing is going on on the stock markets every day, and there is nothing wrong about it. In the case of a man who has stocks and shares to sell, the price at which he will sell, is altogether a question for himself. If stocks and shares are sometimes sold below their value, that is frequently due to the fact that the man who holds them is in such a position that he is obliged to sell. That is the rule of the game in the commercial world. If, however, there was a case, such as Senator Blythe has suggested, of the telling of an untruth to a particular individual or the spreading of wrong statements in order to get a hold of the bonds, then, of course, it would be another matter. Even in a case like that it would, in my opinion, be the duty of bondholders to make themselves fully acquainted with the circumstances.

In the case of these bonds, the people who subscribed originally did not care, as has been admitted, whether they ever got back their money or not. Their subscriptions were to help the cause of Irish independence, and they were really not interested in what happened to the money. On the realisation of the bonds afterwards, the subscribers were still fired with the same enthusiasm, and many of them directed that the money so realised should go to a newspaper that was giving publicity to the cause to which they had subscribed ten years previously. The subscribers gave their money to the cause freely in the first instance. As I have said, they never hoped to see it again. When an appeal was made to them on a second occasion they expressed the wish that the money should go to the same purpose. Eventually, some of that money may perhaps go to the Irish Press. If it does, then those subscribers believe that it is going to the cause to which they subscribed originally. They have perfect freedom of action as to what they will do with their money.

Senators on the other side have suggested that because an assignment of some of this money has been made to Mr. de Valera there is something irregular about it. I do not agree. Those people have a perfect right to assign to any individual they wish. Senators on the other side suggest that under the procedure in this Bill there has been a restriction put on the freedom of action, of the bondholders in America as if they were a lot of ignoramuses: that they were people who did not know what they were doing. There is no foundation whatever for these suggestions, and I say that it is altogether wrong for Senators to assume anything of the kind. The bondholders knew quite well what they were doing. They were acting most intelligently, and it is my belief that the people interested in the Irish Press here are the most intelligent people of the lot.

I would like to have some information from the Minister as to the amount which the State is likely to have to pay in connection with this loan. According to the Estimates for the current year, provision is made for the repayment of Dáil Eireann External Loan, the figure being £6,500. Last year provision was made for £7,500.

That is only for the repayment office.

Where is the actual capital amount shown in the accounts?

In the White Paper.

How much will it be? Will it be 6,000,000 dollars when it is all finished up?

I am not in a position to say what exactly it will be, but up to the present we have been able to keep within the £400,000 mark. We have to readvertise, and naturally, I do not know how many applications that will bring forth, but there are 15,000 belated applications which have to be dealt with. I think we may assume that these are of the order of the ten or 15 dollar bonds which will probably mean 30,000 or 40,000 pounds more. I mention these figures with reserve, because there are still a considerable number of people who may lodge applications.

Mr. Robinson

In view of the fact, as the Minister has stated, that it will be necessary to readvertise, I am wondering whether the period set out in the Bill as the latest date for receiving applications is long enough. It is likely that a large number of subscribers may come forward. If the period provided is found not to be long enough, the Government may not be willing to grant a further extension, and therefore I think it would be better to give subscribers more time under this Bill for the lodging of applications.

I think that among the Irish people in America quite a lot of interest is taken in this matter and that anyone who wants his money back will have ample time in which to lodge his application.

I do not care where the money goes, to the Irish Press or anywhere else, but I want to have some information on the statement made by Senator MacLoughlin. He said that the representatives of the present Government, in opposing the repayment of this loan by the late Government, were responsible for costs amounting to £100,000. Would the Minister tell me what is the difference in policy in regard to this loan between the proposals of the late Government and of the present Government?

I do not know what the previous Government's policy was.

What has the Minister to say on the statement made by Senator MacLoughlin?

Surely our own sins are enough to answer for?

Would the Minister say what is the difference in policy between the late Government's proposal and the proposal in this Bill?

I would like to have some information from the Minister as to what is being put before the Comptroller and Auditor-General. Sub-section (1) of Section 3 refers to the moneys received by the Minister for Finance

"from the Central Fund for the purpose of redeeming the amounts of the External Loans and the amounts of such moneys paid by him to subscribers to the said loans by way of redemption of the said loans."

That, I think, summarises what Senator MacLoughlin and Senator Blythe have been trying to say: that as long as the payments were made in that way to the people who subscribed, or to their successors in title, the matter was all in order. What we are debating at present seems to me to be payments that were not made to the original subscribers or to their successors in title. What I am anxious to know is if the figures put before the Comptroller and Auditor-General will cover all the payments made in connection with the repayment of the loan.

Yes. Every transaction made by the repayment office will be carefully audited, and the auditor will report whether or not all such payments have been made in accordance with the law.

Do you not think that some other wording should go in? If we do not alter the wording it does not seem that any figures would have to be given except those dealing with repayments to actual subscribers. If the Minister says that this covers the whole of the repayments we can discuss the matter later on. I do not think the words in the Bill make it absolutely clear that the names of anybody who has been paid money by the State in connection with this loan, and the figures will go before the Comptroller and Auditor-General. I have no doubt that the Minister will deal with that point later. The reason I mention it is that Senator MacLoughlin wanted to know if we were perfectly certain the money was really going to be repaid definitely to "the subscribers to the said loan and their legal successors." If the Minister said that the money is only going to be repaid to the subscribers or to their successors in title, then the Senator's objection would be met. As far as the new money is concerned, if the Senator was satisfied that none of the money was going for outside payments to anybody but original subscribers and their successors, and if the Minister stated that that covers the repayments, it would seem to meet the Senator's wishes.

I want to have the money sent direct to the original subscribers.

I am more than surprised at the line Senator Jameson has taken on this Bill. No new money is being provided under the Bill.

This Bill seeks to amend the present Act, which gives power to the Government to pay certain moneys due by the State to the people who subscribed to Dáil Eireann External Loan. The Bill does not provide any new money, but simply proposes to extend the date up to which applications for repayment can be made, and to have all accounts in connection with the repayment of the loan submitted to the Comptroller and Auditor-General for his examination and report. The original Bill gave power to pay all the money necessary to those who subscribed to the external loan. I suggest that no useful purpose will be served by going over the ground that was covered when the original Bill was discussed. The right of assignment was then fully thrashed out in both Houses and it was decided, and everyone had an opportunity of speaking on the manner of the assignment and everything else. It is pleasing and gratifying to know that at least one representative newspaper with a world-wide circulation thought fit to comment on the honesty and the honour of the people of this State in meeting their obligations in connection with this external loan. Finding ourselves in the happy position that our action has been applauded by other people, especially at a time when we are too ready to decry one another, and to decry the achievements of our own people, seeing that we have arrived at the happy stage that this organ of world-wide repute has pointed out for the benefit of the English-speaking world that this State has met its obligations to the full towards people who subscribed when it was not fashionable or safe to do so, we should be satisfied. The people in America who subscribed this money did so when it was badly required here. They had the courage to subscribe, and I venture to say that the bulk of those who subscribed to the Dáil bonds at home, and to the external loan in America never did so with the intention of getting interest or dividend, or the original capital back. As a result of these subscriptions the fight was carried on here and it brought us to the position that we now find ourselves in. Accordingly it is our duty to be satisfied and to have no more bickering about this question. The Bill simply asks to have the date for repayment extended to the 30th of June and to have the accounts audited, and it should be passed with good grace.

We are all as gratified as Senator Farren about this question, and we are all agreed that the money should be repaid. We are also highly gratified that a journal of the standing of the Saturday Evening Post should recognise that the people of this country have done the honourable and the honest thing. But if any of these 15,000 new claims that came in are made by people, some of whom under a misapprehension handed over or assigned their bonds to Mr. de Valera, believing, as many of them certainly did, that they were of no great value, Senator Blythe was perfectly justified in asking, if these people had known at the time that we were going to repay in full, would they have acted as they did, or did they act under a misapprehension? It would be much better to have this question discussed rather than to have remaining the feeling that something shady or tricky had been done. Undoubtedly that is in the people's mind. Could the Minister say how many of these are Irish Press claims?

As far as I know none.

That clears up one point, at any rate. I do not agree with Senator Farren that this matter, which caused a great deal of anxiety and a great deal of disgust in the minds of the people, should be covered up. There is no reason why it should. It is much better to have all these things brought out in the open and laid bare. It is no credit to the country and does not serve the interests of the country that people should think shady things are being done. There is the question of the three names in which the appeal was made. Two of these people repudiated this appeal, one, Professor Tierney, with great vehemence. Another gentleman whose name was put to the appeal stated that his name was used without his authority. I believe it did transpire that people did sign over their bonds on the strength of this appeal believing that Professor Tierney, who represented one side, and Mr. de Valera, who represented another, were in agreement. There has been a lot of deception about all this that none of us like. We are humiliated by it. As far as we are concerned we regard it, as a great many people regard it, as pure trickery. There is no use in mincing matters. If the Minister can assure us that none of this State money was handed over to a Party enterprise, we shall be delighted to hear it.

I would rather close this debate in the spirit of the appeal which Senator Farren addressed to the Seanad than deal with the points which have been raised. I want to make it clear, so far as applications affected by this Bill are concerned, though I have not detailed or any intimate knowledge of the 15,000 applicants, none of them, so far as I know, has any interest in the Irish Press, good, bad or indifferent. As to assignments which were previously made and to the allegation that they were made without due appreciation of the value of the bonds, I think that reference to earlier debates and to statements which were made then will show that there is not much, if any, foundation for that. I do not want to go into the more controversial matters. I think those people who subscribed to these bonds in the first instance were perfectly entitled to do what they liked with their property, and if they chose to transfer them to anybody else, I do not think this House would be justified in dishonouring its bond simply because some Senators do not like the person to whom the interest was transferred.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 25th March.
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