I should like to point out that this is a very minor Bill. I have under contemplation rather large questions arising out of the pig and bacon industry as a result of reports which I have received from various quarters, including one from the Prices Commission, which I believe will soon be published. I think it will be necessary— I am convinced it will—to make certain amendments in the present regulations, and perhaps in the present legislation, and I am almost certain that we shall make changes in the constitution of the two boards—the Pigs Board and the Bacon Marketing Board. Those two boards are due for re-election on the last day of December and the 10th of January, respectively. I think it would be rather a loss of time to go through with the election of these boards, considering that we are going to bring in new legislation early next year which will have the effect of changing those boards completely, and their personnel. This Bill, therefore, is merely to allow those boards to carry on for a year longer or, alternatively, until new legislation is passed, and I expect that new legislation will be passed early next year.
Pigs and Bacon (Amendment) Bill, 1938—Second and Subsequent Stages.
I take it the House is not going to refuse the Second Reading of this Bill because, as we realise, the Minister, under legislation, has been regulating the pigs and bacon trade for a few years now. There were references to it in the discussion on the previous measure, I think on the Second Reading. I think the Minister interpreted me as having said on that occasion something to the effect that that legislation was a failure. I do not think he is correct. If the Minister will look up the debate he will see that is not so. What I did say about this legislation was, and what is true of it is, that it has not brought the satisfactory results that were anticipated from it. The truth is that the producers, anyhow, are not satisfied with the results flowing from the passing of the Pigs and Bacon Act and the consequent setting up of two boards under that Act by the Minister. I am not going into any arguments here as to the causes of failure or, if I might rather put it another way, the lack of confidence of the producers in the machinery which the Minister is operating at present. There is in my county and, I know, in other counties as well a great deal of criticism of the operation of these boards I suppose there would be criticism anyhow. No matter how well anything is done we will still have some who would not be satisfied, but, I think it is true to say that, if we are to judge by the fruits, and if we are to look at our pig statistics, we cannot be satisfied that the legislation has brought the good results that we would have hoped for from it. I pointed out then, as I believe, that you are not going to achieve marvellous results from the regulation of trade or too much interference with it. I am quite convinced of that. I am not, on the other hand, one of those who are prepared to take the risks of causing the upheaval in the trade which we would inevitably have if these boards were to be abolished to-morrow. Confusion and dislocation of trade would be something that neither the producers of pigs nor the manufacturers in the factories would desire. I do not think we can take any risks at all in that matter and we have no choice, therefore, if the Minister is not going to hold the elections, as he would be entitled to under the existing legislation, but to prolong the life of the boards. I want, however, to make this comment at this stage. The Minister apparently is satisfied that there are large questions arising now from the experience which he has had both with regard to the regulations which were made under the Act and the fruits of the legislation itself. Both, apparently, are to some degree faulty. He indicates that he holds the view that there will have to be changes in the boards, their constitution and so on, but what exactly is in the back of his mind he has not put very clearly before the House. Perhaps it has not assumed sufficiently concrete form yet for him to do so.
It occurs to me at this stage that perhaps it would not be out of place to suggest to the Minister if, by the fact of the Oireachtas passing this Bill, he is now in the position of continuing the life-time of the present boards for another 12 months, unsatisfactory as they are deemed to be in the country, would it not be advisable to refer the whole question of the pig industry in the country and the results of the legislation and so on to the new agricultural commission which, we understand, will soon be made operative? He could ask them for an interim report. He would thus have the opportunity of getting the producers and the people in the trade and so on to go there and give their point of view, and if you were going to come again with legislation here, asking for it, you would have something that would be fairly complete. I imagine it would be possible to get a short examination of that problem now. There is no necessity for an examination of the vast and comprehensive fashion that you had at the previous inquiry and you could, I think, get a better and fuller view of the effects of your legislation if you were able to bring producers, curers and your own experiences departmentally as well as the consumers before a body of men who would examine in detail the consequences of what has flowed from the legislation which has been passed.
I myself do not feel that it is wise of the Minister to come here with proposals that are merely the results of departmental examination of the position. I think you might do that and that you would have further proposals later. My view is that, now that you have an opportunity of continuing the present conditions for another 12 months, you could easily, if the commission were asked to do so, inquire into the present condition and get suggestions for more comprehensive legislation that would suit the situation and the circumstances for perhaps some years to come. My view is that it would be better to wait and to get that rather than come forward with new proposals that will later perhaps have to be amended by additional proposals resulting from the findings of this commission which the Minister is setting up.
In reference to one thing that Senator Baxter has said, first of all I would like to say that I think that the law and the regulation have been very successful in some respects, in fact in most respects, but, as a result of a very painstaking and definite examination undertaken by certain officers of the Department and also as a result of the receipt from the Prices Commission of a report on the bacon industry, I think that changes could be very usefully made. I do not think, therefore, that it would be necessary to refer the question to the agricultural commission because you have two very definite committees that have examined it, each from a very different point of view. They agree in some respects and disagree in others but I think that where they agree perhaps we can take them as being matters that should be adopted and where they disagree we will have to try and take the best alternative.
I would like to ask the Senators to consider, in view of the fact that it is within 20 minutes of the time when it has been usual for the Seanad to adjourn, whether we might not leave the consideration of these measures over until to-morrow. I do not wish to press that if it is going to be inconvenient to everybody. It so happens that most of the controversial amendments on these Bills have been put down by me and I do not happen to be very well to-day and I would rather, for my own selfish sake, postpone the consideration of them until to-morrow. I do not for a minute suggest that my convenience should come before the convenience of Senators in general and I just throw out for consideration of the Seanad, whether, perhaps, we would not be dealing with these Bills more satisfactorily if we left them over until to-morrow.
I think we should carry on until ten o'clock at least, and, if we cannot complete the business by that time, that we should adjourn until to-morrow. There is no use in thinking we should adjourn now when everybody is prepared to carry on until ten o'clock to try and finish the Bills. If the Senator cuts his speech a little shorter we shall finish long before that.
I am inclined to agree with Senator Counihan. Most Senators have made arrangements for and anticipated a late sitting to-night. We have kept the Minister waiting here for a considerable time, not through any fault of any of us, but I see no reason why we should not carry on. We have only been working four hours already and there is nothing to stop us carrying on until ten o'clock. At least, we would be able to say we had worked an eight-hour day.
I shall withdraw my suggestion. I only made it in case it might suit the views of Senators in general. As I say, I would not press my own convenience as against that of other Senators.