I think it was Senator Cummins who said that he was surprised that I was opposing this suggestion as he thought that I was always in favour of doing something for the farmers. It is because I am interested in the farmers and in the rural districts that I am opposing this suggestion of thatched houses, and I would say to the Minister that, if he is going to give a grant for thatched houses—and I suppose that that grant will be given, according to Cú Uladh and Senator Quirke, for sentimental reasons—he should go the whole hog and only give the grant where the cottages are built with mud walls, because, as I see these thatched houses around the country, the majority of them are just mud-walled cottages. Are we to go back to the mud-walled cabin or, as Senator Fitzgerald says, even back to the beehive house? Now, it was the proud boast of the old Congested Districts Board and of the previous Government that they had succeeded in clearing out the mud-walled cabin and the thatched cottage and that they had succeeded in building decent dwellings for the people of the country. It would appear now that all that was wrong and that we should go back to the thatched house and the mud-walled cabin. I should like to ask Senators Honan and Quirke, who are asking for the thatched house, whether the man concerned, who is putting his own money into it, is looking for a slated house instead of a thatched house. Now, Senator McGee spoke about a grant being refused by the Agricultural Credit Corporation because the house was thatched. Why was it refused? It was refused because a thatched house is easily burned down and because it is very difficult to get insurance for a thatched house.
Housing (Amendment) Bill, 1940—Committee and Final Stages.
Oh, now!
Yes, it is very difficult. At any rate, these are the objections that I have to a thatched house, and I think that where thatched houses are not kept in proper repair they are a despicable eyesore on the countryside.
First of all, Sir, I should like to clear up one point that was raised, first, I think, by Senator McGee, and then by Senator Counihan, and that is in connection with a loan being turned down for a house by the Agricultural Credit Corporation because it was a thatched house. I shall not ask Senator Counihan or Senator McGee where they got their information, but I can assure them that the Agricultural Credit Corporation will not tell why a loan is turned down.
Yes, I agree.
Very well; that is quite right.
The important thing is that the strictest secrecy is kept with regard to these loans, and there is no information to be had from the Agricultural Credit Corporation as to the reasons why a loan is turned down. I therefore think that it is up to Senators McGee and Counihan to substantiate their statements that a loan was turned down by that body for the reasons they have stated. I agree with Senator McGee that the timber required for a thatched house is very different from the timber required for a slated house or a house provided with tiles. I am not agreeing with Senator McGee about the twists and turns in the timber, but I do say that native timber—in fact, any stick that you can cut off a fence—will do for a thatched house. Now, with regard to this question of timber, I cannot give the exact figures, but I think that we are all aware that the prices of foreign timber now as compared with a few weeks ago, or even a week ago, are entirely different from what they were. The price of timber is going up every day and it is quite on the cards that, within the next few months, we may not be able to get any timber at all from abroad. I say, therefore, that it is a good policy for the Government to encourage the use of native materials so far as it is humanly possible to do so.
Senator Counihan suggested that this was a matter of sentiment. It is not. Senator Fitzgerald suggested that the Government should proceed along the lines of what is the most artistic and so on. It is not a question of that either. It is a fact, however, that better people and healthier people than any that we have here now in this House, even, were brought up in thatched houses; and the further use of thatch would be of benefit to the farmers of this country. I admit that if certain types of disease got into the thatch of a thatched house, it might be terribly difficult to get the germs of that disease out of the thatch, but if the roofs of thatches houses were sieved and treated in the same way as other roofs at the present time that danger could be eliminated. There is no reason at all for the objection that is made here. Most of the people in this House, I am sure, have been in good thatched houses in the country, and I think that most of them will admit that, from an artistic point of view, the thatch is probably better than anything else we could have and that, from any other point of view, a thatched roof is equal to any other kind of roof that could be put up. Rather than that the Government should discourage the thatching of these houses, I think that they should build a few experimental thatched bungalows in the precincts of Dublin or other cities with a view to showing what could be done with a modern thatched house. That has been done in other countries, and a friend of mine in London told me that a good number of the houses outside London are thatched with a certain type of reed, and a certain type of coloured reed. However, it seems that we have not sense enough to make use of our own materials.
The Senator will see one of these thatched houses in Killarney if he goes there.
Some Senator mentioned that slated houses were much cleaner than thatched houses. I think it was Senator McEllin who made that suggestion. I do not believe that the roof of the house has much to do with the cleanliness of the house, and if you want to find a really dirty house you do not have to go very far from where we are at the moment, and you will find slated houses far dirtier than any thatched house you ever saw in the country. Of course, I realise that, in certain parts of the country, such as along the western seaboard and so on, you still have the one-roomed thatched house, but that is not the type of house that I have in mind, and we should not jump to conclusions just because there are still some of these houses left. What we should try to visualise is a modern house which, instead of having another kind of roof, should have a thatched roof—at any rate, so far as the rural areas are concerned. I suggest to the Minister that, in connection with Land Commission houses in particular, where you are supplying a man with a farm and a house, more or less free, or what one might call free, the least you ought to be able to do is to say what sort of roof should be put on that house. If a roof of thatch is put on the house, it is at least a guarantee that that man will have a certain amount of tillage, and that is also a guarantee that he will be provided for in the matter of food also.
Tá pointe amháin canta ag an Seanadaidhe Ó Counacháin gur mhaith liom a fhreagairt. Adeir sé go gcuireann na Cumainn Urradhais dúil-chinne níos áirde ar thighthe ceann-tuighe ná ar thighthe ceann-slinne. Anois ní dóigh liom go mbaineann sé seo go mór leis an gceist cé mhéid tighthe taobh amuigh de na bailte móra atá faoi árachas. San áit ar tógadh mé ní dóigh liom go bhfuil teach amháin taobh istigh de dheich míle a bhí fá árachas agus cadé an mhaith ceist shuarach mar sin a thógáil in aghaidh na dtighthe ceann-tuighe? Agus i dtaobh an ruda eile, go bhfuil na tighthe fá shlinte níos glaine agus níos sláintiúla, níl aon rud ann. Is féidir teach ceann-tighe a choinneál glan agus is féidir le teach ceann-tuighe a bheith sláintiúil. Níl ann ach go dtug an ghlún atá imithe faisiún annseo go raibh na tighthe ceann-slinne níos galánta ná na tighthe ceann-tuighe, agus leanamar sin. Ach sílim go bhfuilimid ag deireadh an fhaisiúin sin anois, agus go mba cheart dúinn dul ar ais ar ár nós féin. Cuireann sé gráin orm-sa dul amach san Iarthar agus féachaint ar bocsaí lasóg thighthe thall is i bhfus agus ceanna ruadha ortha. Ní dóigh liom gur galánta an rud é agus ní dóigh liom gur compóirtighe na tighthe, ach gur deise na tighthe faoi'n gceann-tuighe agus na ballaí a bheith tógtha le clocha.
Anois rud eile. Pointe a luadhadh go gcaithfear dul ar ais ar an tuighe sin i gceann seal bliadhan. Is fíor sin. Caithfear dul ar ais i gceann roinnt blianta. Ach deirim-se go bhfuil sé níos saoire mar sin féin ná na tighthe ceann-slinne. Caithtear dul ar ais go minic ar na tighthe ceann-slinne. Nuair a thigeas gaoth mhór sciobann sí léi cuid de na slinnte agus téigheann an t-uisce isteach. Ansin caithtear saor scláta fháil chun é sin a dheasú. Is dóigh liom go bhfuil na cinn slinne an-chostasach. Mar sin ní fheicim go bhfuil aon rud san argóint a chualamar indiu in aghaidh na gceann tuighe, agus tá dúil agam go gcuimhneoidh an Riaghaltas agus an tAire ar an gceist seo.
I did not intend to enter into this discussion, but listening quietly there for the last hour and a half it just flashed across my mind that if some of those brilliant mathematical metaphysicians spoken of so much yesterday had been listening to the discussion as it has transpired, even with all the brilliance and academic distinction, they possibly could not make up their minds as to what was the consensus of opinion here, whether for or against these thatched houses. I think the Minister touched the kernel of the whole situation, and I trust nothing will divert his mind from the considered view that he gave the House. Everybody must admit that the Irish farmer is a hard-headed business man. Will anybody deny that for the last quarter of a century there has been a slow but inevitable going away from thatched houses? Why? Senator Quirke talks about artistic design. Somebody else talked about sentiment. We are told sentiment rules the world. Yes, and it has ruined a good many countries, if you like. Maybe we have a little bit too much sentiment here. If it is not artistic architecture and if it is not sentiment, what is it that has operated? Pure economics. The Minister touched it properly. It is utterly impossible to get a man to do a decent permanent lasting job on a roof to-day, a fact of which we had evidence and proof for the last quarter of a century and years long before that. It is impossible to get a thatcher, and even the patched up old job that you will get from a man to-day who is attempting to do it costs the rural people something like £1 a day. Will anyone deny that the rural cottages that we see scattered all over the land are a great boon? It has been very largely due, as I said before on other occasions, to the encouragement and the inspiration and the initiative given by the Minister and by the staff of the Local Government Department to public bodies. Is it not a pleasure to drive through the country to-day? I speak largely of my own county. When I drive in a motor or an ordinary trap and pony I look at these beautiful, smiling, attractive, hygienic, delightful holdings. It is a delight to to see them. There is no comparison between them and the old mud cabins with the old bits of windows, which they called hygienic. Senator Cummins told us a while ago that he knows a section of people who are living, he said, in insanitary houses, who are free from tuberculosis and sickness of any kind, men of great physique, powerful men, full of industry and of initiative. Still they are living in insanitary homes. The old thatched cottages must be full of dangerous bacteria which have been accumulating for centuries. As a member of a county council, I know that I have been urging the taking of a certain cottage and burning away myriads of bacteria that must inhabit it and must have destroyed many people. The Minister gave us his pre-considered view. I trust nothing will divert him from his purpose, and that he will not be influenced by other arguments that have been made in favour of encouraging the continuation of such buildings.