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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Oct 1940

Vol. 24 No. 26

University Colleges Bill, 1940—Second and subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

As the title indicates, the purpose of this Bill is to enable the Government to extend by order the terms of office of members of the governing bodies of the University Colleges of Dublin, Cork and Galway. Under their charters the period of office of the governing bodies of these colleges is limited to three years and, in the normal course, the period of office of the present governing bodies would terminate on January 31st next. The charters also prescribe how these governing bodies shall be constituted: each governing body includes, inter alia, a number of representatives elected by the registered graduates of the college, and one representative elected by each of the county councils in the college area. The procedure for the election of the governing bodies, as prescribed in the statutes of the different colleges, includes arrangements for a postal vote by the registered graduates of each college, and defines in detail the times within which action must be taken by the different appointing bodies. Not less than three months before the end of the period of office of the governing bodies notice of the fact must be given in writing to the appointing bodies, and to each registered graduate of the college.

Representations have been made to the Government by the President of University College, Dublin, on behalf of the governing body of that college, that it is undesirable to hold the election for a new governing body in present circumstances, and suggesting that, if possible, the existing governing body should be continued in office for another year. Communications have also been received from the University Colleges at Cork and Galway agreeing with this proposal. In support of the proposal, it was suggested that there is the possible danger of an acute emergency arising which would dislocate the work of one or more of the colleges, or of some of the appointing bodies. Moreover the elections in question include a postal vote by the graduates, and it has been represented that many of these who live abroad would find it very difficult, if not impossible, to take part in the elections owing to the present abnormal postal delays. The President of University College, Dublin, has also mentioned as a further reason the undesirability of holding contested elections at present.

As the periods of office of the governing bodies of the University Colleges are prescribed in their respective charters, the extension of the period of office of the present bodies involves an amendment of these charters. The law officers have pointed out that in all cases since 1922, when a charter has been amended, as in the case of the National Maternity Hospital, this has been done by legislation by the Oireachtas, and that this is the appropriate course to follow in the present case. Formerly the issue of a supplementary charter would probably have been the course adopted. It was indicated that the legislation might take the form of a Bill empowering the Government, on the representations of any body acting under the charters of the university itself or any of its constituent colleges, to make, from time to time, by order, such provision as they consider necessary to continue the term of office of any such body beyond that appointed in the relevant charter until such further time as the Government would fix.

The Bill now before the Oireachtas accordingly provides that the Government may declare by order that the term of office of the members in office on the date of such order of the governing body of any of the colleges shall be extended until a specified date not later than 12 months after the date on which such term of office would ordinarily expire. It is also provided (sub-section (2) of Section 2) that no order shall be made under the proposed Act unless on the application of the governing body, to whose members the intended order would relate. In order to regularise a position where, in anticipation of an order under the proposed Act, the arrangements prescribed by statute in connection with the election of a governing body of a college have not been made, sub-section (3) of Section 2 provides that in any case where, before the date of an order, any of the steps prescribed by the statutes of a particular college in relation to the nomination, appointment and election of members has not been taken, it shall be deemed to have been proper not to take any such step. It is provided in Section 3 of the Bill that every order extending the term of office of a governing body shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as possible after it is made, and that any such order may be annulled by a resolution of either House within 21 days.

This is a very desirable measure. A good deal of labour and time and printing and expense are involved in the holding of elections for the various governing bodies, and in the present condition of things a good deal of that labour and expense would be wasted, particularly in regard to graduates, of whom there is a very large number in England. The doing of the thing itself, therefore, is very desirable. I was under the impression, when the matter was first mooted, that it could be done by way of an order made by the Government—as the thing is absolutely non-controversial—under the Emergency Powers Act, but the Minister, if I understood him aright, is advised that that cannot be done when you need to amend a charter. In any event, whatever about the machinery, the thing itself is desirable, and will, I think, save trouble and needless expense at the moment.

The Minister in introducing this Bill both in the other House and in this has made it plain that its framers were very much concerned to preserve the autonomy of the National University and its constituent colleges. It was initiated at the desire of the Presidents of University College, Dublin, and of the sister colleges in Cork and Galway, and after consultation with them. It is also of importance to stress that the order extending the life of the respective governing bodies shall only be made by the Government at the desire of the governing bodies. I think it is right to underline this feature of the Bill, which shows the fastidious and scrupulous care with which the important principle of the autonomy of the university and its colleges has been preserved.

B'fhéidir nar cheart domhsa mo ladhar a chur isteach sa cheist seo mar ní rabhas ar Ollscoil ariamh agus ní thuigim an cheist go ró-mhaith ach deirim annseo go mba mhaith an rud ceartanna nuadha a chumadh do na hOllscoltacha a chuirfeadh an Gaedhealachas ins an áit cheart ionta. Tá Connradh na Gaedhilge ag iarraidh an méid seo a dhéanamh agus dar ndóigh is féidir é dhéanamh. Gaedhealuigheadh na bun-scoltacha agus na meadhon-scoltacha roinnt mhaith bliain ó shoin agus sílim go bhfuil sé in am na hOllscoltacha a Ghaedhealú agus go mba chóir an ceart a fuair siad ó Shasana a chur ar leath-taobh agus ceartanna nuadha a chumadh chun a dheimhniú go mbeidh an Ghaedhilg mar bhun-teanga ins an Ollscoil agus go mbeidh Gaedhilg ag na hollamhna agus go ndéanfar an chuid is mó den obair ins an Ghaedhilg, rud nach bhfuil á dhéanamh fá láthair. Tig liom é seo a rádh go bhfuil Gaedhil na hEireann an-mhí-shásta leis an gcuma ina bhfuil an teanga ins an dá Ollscoil.

I do not know whether I am at liberty to express my personal opinions of universities as a whole on this particular Bill.

No, it would not be quite in order.

But when we have legislation of this sort before us in connection with governing bodies of universities, one automatically asks oneself the question, what do the governing bodies do, what is their responsibility and would it seriously affect the administration of the university if there were no election held? In any case I have a feeling that the whole question of the general administration of the universities of this country wants overhauling, because I am beginning to think that university education has been somewhat overdone in a country that considers itself an agricultural community. There is no control as to the number of people in the university and not even the governing bodies are too sure as to whether there is work for them after they qualify. I am just expressing a personal opinion. I would like to know if it would be advisable to consider having an inquiry or investigation into this whole question of universities and the results achieved by them over the last 20 years. We have many examples at the present time of young university graduates with all sorts of degrees and while there are not posts enough for them to fill, I am not too sure that they are better people to put into work than the ordinary person who comes out of a national school, because it is inherent in a university educated young fellow that because he has been in a university and because he has a degree he is the "be-all and end-all" of everything.

On a point of order, are we going to have a discussion on universities, because, if we are, a few of us would like to be able to make a few remarks?

It is irrelevant on this Bill.

Senator McEllin may be quite in order in making certain remarks, but if he is speaking irrelevantly will everybody else be allowed to be as irrelevant?

Senator Hayes is not in the Chair anyhow. The universities should keep to their own place and not be afraid of criticism. I do not wish to transgress at all. I am merely expressing a general opinion on my own experience, and if a university professor feels that I have hit the nail on the head, I cannot help that. However, I will not go any further. To go back to what I originally suggested, I do feel that it is questionable whether the system of governing bodies has outlived itself or not or whether another form of administration might be got that would work more effectively in the fast-moving times we have to look to in the future.

I do not think that the matters raised by Senator McEllin, whether they were in order or not, come within my province to deal with. This Bill is quite a simple one, affecting the sole issue of the postponement of certain university elections which have to be held according to certain rules and regulations. It is thought by the university authorities that in existing circumstances power should be taken by the Government to postpone the elections for periods of one year at a time. The Government can do this on more than one occasion under the powers of the Bill. As Senator Mrs. Concannon has pointed out, there is an important principle in this matter of university autonomy and the Government would have hesitated to introduce such a measure if they had not been approached by the university authorities in the first instance. Perhaps I gave Senator Hayes a wrong impression if I led him to believe that this Bill was introduced on account of the fact that a certain precedent had been followed in connection with the amendment of the charters of universities. That is not exactly the reason why we have proceeded. It may be partially the reason why we have proceeded by Bill in this case. We feel that there are certain matters which it would not be proper for the Government to deal with by way of emergency order unless it can be shown clearly, and the Government is satisfied, that the matter is one which arises immediately out of the emergency and, moreover, has to deal with the question of public security and the safety of the State. We feel that only in those circumstances can matters be dealt with properly under emergency order and normally we prefer to deal with the other questions by way of measures going through the Oireachtas. The opinion of the law advisers was that it would be rather difficult to relate the avoidance of inconvenience in this matter of elections for the college authorities and their being relieved of a certain amount of fruitless labour with the question of the maintenance of the security of the State and even the preservation of the State itself. That is really the reason why we have thought it necessary to introduce a Bill to deal with the matter.

Question put and agreed to.
Bill considered in Committee.
Sections 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.
Question proposed: "That the Title be the Title to the Bill."

I presume we are having to legislate here because the charter of the university insists on this election being held in a particular way. If that is so, what we are doing, surely, would be amending the charter of the National University. I am not saying that I am right but, in that case, should not the Bill, in its Title, state clearly that it is, in fact, amending the charter of the university?

That point has not been brought under my notice, but both our own law officers and the law officers of the university have been consulted in the matter and this Bill is the fruit of their labours.

Did they advert to it at all?

I am sure they did.

Question agreed to.

Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—agreed to.

Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—agreed to.

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