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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Mar 1941

Vol. 25 No. 7

Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Bill, 1941—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This is the annual Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Bill, and Section 2 provides, therefore, that the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts, which will expire on the 31st instant, shall continue in force for another year. The Bill also contains a number of other provisions which have become necessary since the enactment of the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) (No. 2) Act, 1940. Sections 6 and 7 are of an emergency nature. Section 6 provides that Reserve officers who have not been called out on permanent service, or who have been granted exemption, may be required to relinquish their commissions if such a course is considered desirable. It also provides that persons who have been granted temporary commissions during the emergency will relinquish these commissions when the period of emergency is ended. In addition, the section will enable temporary officers whose removal from the Defence Forces is at any time during the emergency considered desirable in the interests of the service but whose dismissal would be inappropriate—for instance, officers found to be temporarily unsuited to Army life or discipline—to be directed to relinquish their commissions.

Section 7 provides that no soldier of the Forces or Reserve will be entitled to be discharged during an emergency. Existing legislation enables a soldier of the Forces or Reserve whose period of enlistment expires during an emergency to be detained for an additional period of 12 months. This has been found inadequate, however. Already, since the commencement of the present emergency, many soldiers have had to be discharged after having completed their full period of enlistment, and having been detained for the additional period of 12 months.

The loss of experienced noncommissioned officers and men at the present time constitutes a very grave problem, and Section 7 is, therefore, being introduced to ensure against further losses of such personnel. While the section is a departure from the terms of the contract made with these men when they enlisted, it has been my experience that, in practice, the majority of them prefer to remain members of the Defence Forces rather than go back to civilian life after so many years. I have received many appeals on behalf of such men for an extension of Army service, but none for release from service. At the same time, individual cases of possible hardship arising out of the application of Section 7 will receive all possible consideration. The section is being made retrospective to the 1st January last to cover the cases of men whose maximum period of service has expired since that date, but who have been retained in Army service.

The object of Section 3 is to apply to officers the terms of Section 9 of the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1925. That section provides that where a soldier is certified by a registered medical practitioner to be of unsound mind and to be a proper person to be detained under care and treatment, the Minister for Defence may, upon such soldier's discharge, cause him to be sent to the asylum of the district to which he belongs. Where a soldier has relatives or friends who are in a position to take care of him and are willing to do so, and where such a course is considered advisable, he is discharged into their care. In applying the section to officers, the procedure would be similar.

Two sections—Sections 9 and 10— relate to salvage. Section 9 provides that the Minister for Defence shall be entitled to claim salvage in respect of the services of State ships in the same way as shipping owners have the right in law to claim in respect of salvage services rendered by their ships. This section is necessary so that the Minister's rights may be placed beyond any doubt.

Section 10 provides that a claim by the commander or crew of a State ship in respect of salvage services shall not be finally adjudicated upon without the consent of the Minister for Defence. This procedure, which is somewhat similar to that prescribed in the case of the British Navy, is justified by the fact that salvage work carried out by the commanders and crews of State ships is done in the course of duty. It is reasonable, therefore, that a claim by the commander and crew of a State ship should be permitted only in exceptional cases where outstanding work has been done and very valuable services rendered.

Sections 4 and 5 are amendments of the No. 2 Act of 1940. Section 4 amends Section 12 of the previous Act which provided that occupiers of premises might, during an emergency, be required to supply billets for members of the Defence Forces and that billeting requisitions might be served on such occupiers. Since the procedure in regard to unoccupied premises was not made clear it is now being provided that in the case of unoccupied premises, the owner shall be regarded as the occupier for the purposes of emergency billeting.

Section 5 provides that offences under Section 57 of the No. 2 Act of 1940 which relates to the restoration to their employment at the end of the emergency of Reservists called out on permanent service, and persons who enlisted in the Forces for the duration of the emergency may be prosecuted either by the Minister for Defence or by the former employee. The power conferred on the Minister for Defence would be exercised in flagrant cases of victimisation where, in the public interest, an example should be made of the former employer. Sub-section (2) of Section 5 rectifies a slight drafting error in Section 57.

Through an oversight, due to the urgency with which the No. 2 Act had, in the circumstances of the time, to be enacted, Section 57 did not cover the reinstatement in their employment of officers of the Reserve called out on permanent service and of officers granted temporary commissions during the emergency. The necessary provision in respect of such officers is now being made in Section 8, the terms of which are similar to those of Section 57 of the No. 2 Act of 1940.

The Bill was very fully and carefully considered by the Defence Conference, and the Dáil was good enough to take all stages on one day. I should be very grateful if the Seanad would be so kind as to grant me similar facilities to-day.

I agree that the Minister should get all the stages of this Bill to-day in the circumstances. The criticisism usually directed for a number of years against the Defence Forces Temporary Provisions Bill is that the Defence Forces provisions have not yet been codified into one comprehensive measure. I think it is quite clear that the Minister at the present moment could not be expected to devote his own time and the time of his Department to the making of a comprehensive measure. In those circumstances it is easy to understand why this particular kind of Bill must be introduced and I think we ought to pass the Second Reading and pass all stages. The provision with regard to salvage, I take it, arises out of a case in the courts but it is not retrospective, of course?

Mr. Hayes

Where does the law for the Construction Corps come in? It does not come into this Bill at all, does it? I think it is contained in the Principal Act.

I take it that special provision has been made for the Construction Corps.

Mr. Hayes

But not here?

No, not here.

Under this Bill the Minister seeks power to retain in the Army a very large number of men over the period for which they enlisted and up to now no provision has been made, that I know of, to ensure continuation of benefits to them under the National Health Insurance Act. I raised the matter here on the Unemployment Bill with the Minister for Industry and Commerce but he was unaware of the position. I wonder is the Minister for Defence any better qualified to tell us what steps will be taken to ensure continuation of benefits under the National Health Insurance Act to these men so kept on in the Army. It is a very serious matter for them and a very serious matter for the National Health Insurance Society. I believe this is a Bill under which that position might be rectified. I do not at all agree that we should rush the Bill, because, certainly, in this Bill there ought to be a provision regarding national health insurance. I would like to know what steps are going to be taken now or later to clarify the position of these men.

In respect to the point raised by Senator Hayes regarding the Construction Corps the members of that corps simply join the Army in the ordinary way and the corps is a separate unit into which they are drafted. In that way they pass through the ordinary channels.

Mr. Hayes

There is no legislation required?

That is correct. In regard to the question raised by Senator Foran, I will have that inquired into. I do not just know what the actual position is at the moment in respect to national health insurance. I think Deputy Norton raised a similar matter on one of these Bills when it was going through. I found it necessary to consult the Minister for Industry and Commerce on the point and he took some steps to meet the request put forward by Deputy Norton. The most I can say is that I will have the matter raised and examined.

Question put and agreed to.
Bill considered in Committee.
Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That Section 3 stand part of the Bill."

I wish to raise a point on Section 3. I am afraid I do not know the relevant section of the Principal Act. There is a certain stigma attached to certification. Certainly on the part of civilians. That may be aggravated by the fact that first of all civilians cannot get treatment unless they are certified. That is why they are certified so promptly. A certain stigma attaches to the certification, partly because the Civic Guards have to remove the person certified. In many cases it is believed that if a person could get some treatment over a reasonable period he might never have to be certified, and might get over a temporary malady. I am not raising the question of whether any distinction arises between officers and other ranks, but the desirability of delaying the actual certification as long as possible, in the hope that the stigma might never attach to the person concerned, and that he might be able to go back to duty.

The situation is as explained by the Senator. It is only as a last resort that certification as of unsound mind takes place. In the first place, when such a person is discharged from hospital it is only after the medical practitioner certifies that he is of unsound mind that he is handed over to his relatives which, of course, is what we would desire, and failing that, such a person is sent to an asylum in the district to which he belongs.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 3 to 11, inclusive, agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.
Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—put and agreed to.
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