Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Apr 1941

Vol. 25 No. 10

Beef Export Licences—Motion.

Professor Johnston

I move:—

That with a view to securing an economic price for fat cattle the Seanad is of opinion that export licences for beef carcases should be granted without delay in all cases where suitable abattoir and other facilities are available.

When I first put this motion down I was not quite sure if I had stumbled on a mare's nest or not, but, in view of the information which has reached me since yesterday, I am rather inclined to think that, perhaps, the kind of nest on which I have stumbled is a hornet's nest. I am not quite sure whether a mare is a kind of bird that dirties its own nest but, if so, this situation created by the absence of adequate facilities for the export of beef carcases has something in it of the quality both of a mare's nest and of a hornet's nest—it is not without sting and it is not without stink, if I may be pardoned the use of the word. I would like that the House should assist the Minister in every possible way in drawing the sting from this economic situation and removing the stench which has arisen in connection with it. We wish to help the Minister in this useful decontaminating process.

Although I use a rather strong metaphor, I am not suggesting that there is any moral stench, but only a kind of economic stench arising from the fact that, owing to a peculiar situation, certain persons occupy a monopoly position and have been able to exploit that monopoly position in such a way as to pay the farmers—the producers of the fat cattle—a good deal less than a fair price for those cattle, while, at the same time, they have charged the full price, if not more, to the Dublin butchers who ultimately use those fat cattle. The stench, then, is not a question of any kind of dishonesty but a question of an economic situation which we would like the Minister to clear up. The best way to clear up that economic situation, which results primarily from the glut of fat cattle in the home market, is to increase in every possible way the facilities for the export of beef carcases to the British market. In that way, most conveniently to all concerned, the surplus cattle available for slaughter can be disposed of, and people—no matter who they are—buying cattle for the Dublin market will have to compete with the export price in the payment they make for those cattle, and that price will be such that the farmer will look forward to receiving it and it will give him no just cause for complaint.

Consequently the emphasis is on the desirability of extending abatoir facilities wherever possible, so as to take care of the surplus of fat cattle now ready for slaughter and which the home market is unable to absorb. Let me remind the House briefly of the facts which constitute the background of this economic situation. As we all know, owing to the foot-and-mouth disease, we can no longer export live stock on the hoof. Owing to a very satisfactory arrangement made by the Minister with our neighbours, about three months ago—an arrangement contemplating a higher price for our finished fat cattle, when sold fat in the British market, than any we had yet received in recent years—it was possible for the Minister to recommend that our farmers should stall-feed a considerable number of our fat cattle this winter. I join with the Minister in welcoming the fact that, for the first time in our recent economic history, stall-feeding appeared to be an economic and profitable proposition.

Our farmers, especially in the Minister's own county, Wexford, and in Louth, and, doubtless, in other counties, took the Minister's advice and stall-fed considerably more cattle this winter than was enough to supply the needs of the home market. Then the outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease came, and our neighbours made it impossible for us, for obvious reasons, to sell any of those fat cattle, or, indeed, any fat cattle on the hoof in their country and, consequently, the only way in which we could dispose of our surplus fat cattle was by selling them in the form of beef carcases. We heard, much to our satisfaction, that the Minister made an arrangement with our neighbours by which they would take any reasonable quantity of beef carcases at prices corresponding to the live-weight prices which had formerly been arranged. We thought that in that way the situation with regard to the surplus beef cattle would be taken care of, but for some reason, unknown to me, there seems to have been some delay in some parts of the country in arranging for the establishment of, or allowing the local people to establish abattoirs in which they might kill cattle for export as beef carcases to our neighbours. Apparently, it is necessary to receive the permission of the State in order that one should export beef carcases. I do not know why, unless, perhaps, there is some sanitary reason which makes it desirable in the public interest that beef carcases should not be produced except on premises which reach a certain standard of fitness.

Anyhow, licences are required and my complaint is that in at least one instance known to me, there has been considerable delay in the provision of that licence, and, in consequence, the farmers all round that district found themselves at the mercy of the "big five", the members of the Emergency Purchasing Commission, who came down to buy beef in a glutted market for the Dublin consumers' market. According to my information, these buyers played off one farmer against another and they offered prices on a take-it-or-leave-it basis, with a distinct understanding that if the farmer did not choose to accept those quite inadequate prices, he would be put in the black books of that organisation and might be sorry for himself afterwards. The result of that has been that while farmers are fuming about what they consider a serious grievance they are quite reluctant to give the facts of the case to people like me who might ventilate those cases with greater confidence if I had been able to appeal to definite concrete cases. Owing to the absence of these facilities for exporting beef carcases, the big five were buying cattle, at the rate of about 1,000 a week, for about £5 a head cheaper than the price that the farmer had reasonably looked forward to getting, and which he would have got if he had been free to export the cattle in the form of beef carcases. Yet, the same "big five" were selling those cattle at completely normal, if not super-normal, prices, to the Dublin butchers, so that there appears to have been in recent weeks a matter of about £5.000 a week of abnormal profits which have disappeared into thin air, so far as the farmers producing fat stock are concerned, or so far as the butchers buying the cattle from the "big five" are concerned.

One of the things that I, and the public, would like to know about is, what has been happening to this £5,000 a week abnormal profits which have been passing through the hands of the "big five". The general impression throughout the country is not, perhaps, a very charitable one with regard to the interpretation of what became of that money. At all events, people do not believe that it was subscribed to the Red Cross Fund or contributed to the Comforts Fund for the National Army or the Local Security Force, so I would like to know where that money went, and whether sufficient steps have been taken to prevent that form of undesirable profiteering at the expense of the farmer and the consumers from taking place again. Of course the most efficient check would be to take care of the supply of surplus beef by way of the export of dead beef carcases which is recommended in this motion.

The farmers who stall-fed fat cattle for the last three months had reason to look forward to a price analogous to the price arranged for our export fat cattle during the coming six months, and here they find themselves disappointed of that price by as much as £5 a head. That is only one of other examples of the way in which farmers have been penalised for their virtues, and while I do not say that it is the fault of the Government, I do say it is a pity when that situation arises in which any business man, farmer or otherwise, should suffer more for practising sound business enterprise and civic virtue than if he played for safety and followed a different course. In the events which have happened, farmers would be better off if they did not take the Minister's advice, had not stall-fed large numbers of cattle, but fed only enough fat cattle to satisfy the requirements of the home market and sold all the rest as forward stores three months ago. In that case, this problem of a glut would not have arisen, and the loss of £5 a beast would not have been incurred but, of course, neither the Minister nor farmers anticipated the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease which has caused all the trouble, and now the problem that faces us is partly related to that unfortunate situation.

The solution of it, as I have attempted to point out, is that, wherever possible, adequate facilities should be provided for the export of surplus beef carcases. If that is done, then I think we will have no further reason to complain of the prices paid to farmers when competition has been restored between the "big five" and the British importer. The farmers tell me that, owing to their difficulty in getting rid of all their cattle now ready for slaughter, the cattle are eating up food which would really be needed for other purposes, and perhaps for human consumption, in the course of the next few months. But they have to keep their cattle, in cases where they cannot sell them, longer than is profitable for them and they have to keep them alive in some shape or form. Consequently, it is in the interests of the country at any rate that these cattle should be disposed of by way of export in so far as they are not needed for consumption by our own people.

There is also the point that if suitable abattoir facilities were set up in Drogheda and elsewhere there seems no reason why the Dublin butchers should not buy their beef wholesale from these local abattoirs in competition with the British importer, and, in that case, it would no longer be necessary for the Emergency Purchasing Committee or any similar body to go around on foot visiting the farms of the sellers of fat cattle. I may say that these people in Louth and Meath do not at all appreciate visits of Dublin buyers coming from infected areas and infected yards in Dublin, bringing the possibility of foot-and-mouth disease to their own farmsteads which hitherto have been fairly free from that disease. If you adopt the method of buying the carcases wholesale from suitable abattoirs in Drogheda and elsewhere, there seems no reason why Dublin buyers, with the possibility of infected footwear, should pay any visit whatever to any farmstead in Louth and Meath.

The simplest solution of the whole problem is that the Minister will, everywhere where suitable facilities exist, allow abattoirs to function as producers of beef carcases for export or for consumption in the home market. Certainly a competitive price will then have to be paid which will be based on the price already fixed for export purposes. If the Minister can assure me that something on these lines is being done or is the policy of the Government, I personally will be only too happy to withdraw the motion. I think, in the meanwhile, it is an excellent thing that we should ventilate all the grievances that have been expressed, even though some of them may be without foundation, because it is better that things should be brought into open debate in a House of this kind rather than remain underground and germinate serious discontent.

Mr. McGee

I second the motion. It is never a very encouraging task to second Senator Johnston in anything. I think, no matter how much time one may devote to the subject, he will have hung his hat on every possible peg on which it could be hung. Nevertheless, I think the motion appeals so much to common sense that it needs very little discussion. We are asking the Minister to assist in carrying out a very excellent arrangement that was made, possibly at the Minister's own prompting, certainly by his own officials. It is only fair to state that at all times and in all places it is possible to approach the Minister and his officials and one will always come away encouraged. But whether due to circumstances of fate or otherwise, there is always some jolt and these jolts seriously affect the credit that farmers build up for themselves in their banks. The situation is very difficult for farmers when they assure the banks, as many of our farmers do, that bills and overdrafts will be reduced say, in January, in February or in March, when there is the fear that their stock may go to loss or waste. On Monday last a friend of mine who had, I think, 25 first-class cattle, would not be allowed to let them out. He will have to leave them there until June or July. These cattle were well worth £30 to £35 a beast. Some man in the West of Ireland, who would have other cattle to replace these, if they had got away, is deprived of the benefit of that deal and that sale, with consequent loss to everybody concerned. Some of these people told me last week that they are at the mercy of what almost amounted to gangsters. I have seen stock leaving a farm at something in the neighbourhood of £2 a cwt. I do not know what they fetched when they came to Dublin. I was able to trace them no further than the county. While I am sure nobody wants to say anything to any man who is earning his livelihood, still, the concern of this House and the concern of the Minister must be for the producers down the country.

In every town and village there were slaughterhouses producing meat under fairly good circumstances in times of peace and, to my mind, the moment any difficulty develops in the livestock trade these slaughterhouses should be placed at the disposal of producers and vendors. If the slaughterhouse in the humblest village is good enough for the slaughter of cattle and sheep for the benefit of Irish consumers in times of peace surely they ought to be good enough when an emergency such as this arises. I am perfectly certain that what is good enough for ourselves at home should be good enough for our export trade. That may be a small point but it is the little points in life that count most. That is a little point that would have very great effect in encouraging competition and bringing about an excellent arrangement which was devised by Mr. Twomey and Mr. Adams. It is very much to be deplored that six weeks have elapsed, the six most critical weeks in the year. On every farm there is a limited supply of food and fodder. There is a reasonably good market assured if we could get to it. The slaughterhouses may have some small defects but they have been good enough always for the home market. They have been licensed for the home market and should be licensed for the export market now. Our cattle producers or our cattle salesmen have human qualities to a very marked degree. Their policy is each man for himself and the more he can get for himself the better. But that is not for the good of the country. I suggest that if the Minister can see his way to have those slaughterhouses in the various towns and villages placed at the disposal of the salesmasters or the vendors of livestock they could take them over at once and I would be very satisfied.

Mr. Counihan

I rise to support the motion because I believe that if it were possible for the Minister to license all the slaughterhouses it would be the means of creating a market for our stock and would create some competition in the sale of our stock, thereby helping to ensure for the producers a remunerative and economic price. I understand that there is a number of slaughterhouses in Dublin and throughout the country that would be suitable for the purpose of slaughtering our fat cattle and sheep, and I would ask the Minister to consider favourably the suggestions made by Senator Professor Johnston and Senator McGee.

Now, it is most distasteful to me to have to comment adversely on any section of cattle traders. After all, I am here as their representative, and it is not very pleasant to have to comment on their action, but I must say that the present emergency committee, that was set up by the Minister, does not command the confidence of any section or any organisation in the trade. They are out for themselves, and I think the Minister has instructed them to the effect that they are to forget that they are members of any organisation—in other words, to remember that they are there solely as his nominees to carry out the business. I do not blame the Minister for setting up this committee in this period of emergency. It was the Minister's job to secure a meat supply for the citizens of Dublin, and we all could say that anything he did to get over that emergency was quite right, but when it has been pointed out to the Minister that the action of this committee has been a complete racket and nothing but profiteering, I think it is up to the Minister to reconsider the situation and scrap that committee.

I do not blame the committee. Personally, they are all decent men, and they are only doing what nine out of ten men in the cattle trade would do if they got the opportunity, and that is feathering their own nests. As I say, I do not blame them for doing that, but I do blame the Minister for giving these people, or any people, the opportunity to profiteer. That is the position at the present time. They have got carte blanche from the Minister to go into a restricted market, where they are the only buyers, and give whatever price they like to the producers and the unfortunate farmers, and they can then sell in a market where they have a definite fixed price of 10½d. a lb. In other words, buy as cheaply as you can, but there is your price for the commodity when you sell. The policy, in the first instance, was that whatever profit you made you could hold for yourself. I do not think Senator Johnston was exaggerating when he mentioned £5 10s. 0d. per head. I think that in a good many cases the profits were even more than that—that is, the gross profit per beast. As I said, however, I do not blame these people for their action, and a lot of us are quite jealous because we have not got the opportunity of profiteering. That is the fact. I do blame the Minister, however, for giving the chance to anybody to profiteer at the expense of the producers.

Mr. M. Hayes

And the consumers.

Mr. Counihan

These people are decent people, but they will profiteer if they get the chance.

Mr. Baxter

They are not as bad as that.

Mr. Counihan

They are. They will profiteer if they get the chance, and so would you, Senator Baxter, if you got the opportunity.

Mr. Baxter

I would not.

Mr. Counihan

I am not asking the Minister to scrap this profiteering and racketeering committee, merely to set up another committee that might be worse. I am quite satisfied that a scheme could be produced that would work to the satisfaction of the Minister and of all concerned, and I hope, with the assistance of my colleagues in the producers' association, to be able to put forward a scheme which would be satisfactory to the Minister, and then, and not till then, will I ask the Minister to change the present committee. As I have said, it is not very pleasing to me to come here as the representative of the cattle trade and have to denounce any section of my colleagues. Senator Johnston made a very good suggestion, of which I thoroughly approve, to the effect that if the Minister would consent to the licensing of these abattoirs throughout the country, the Dublin butchers, or any butchers, should have the option of purchasing the meat at these abattoirs at current prices, without any fixed rate. I am sure that these butchers would be very pleased to sell at the prices they would get after exporting, less expenses.

I know that the Minister and his experts are in a very difficult position, and I do not want to labour the point or denounce the Minister's action or policy in any way. I am speaking solely in the interests of the farmers and producers, and I say that even the best price that has been given is no compensation for these farmers and producers who have spent their time trying to make ends meet and are now being offered a price for their produce which is neither remunerative nor economic.

Before the unfortunate outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease which so upset the country, fat cattle slaughtered in the abattoir were making 56/- per cwt. in some cases in the Dublin market. I have not heard of any bigger price than 52/- being offered by the present emengency committee. As I have said these cattle were making 56/- and the Minister can get confirmation of that statement if he wants to from the Dublin cattle salesmen. The present prices are not economic and the Minister should see that, in the interests of producers and in the interests of stall feeders, who have kept their cattle until this time of the year, that a proper price is paid. Goodness knows they are entitled to some consideration and it is the Minister's job to see that they get it.

Dr. Doyle

I should like to say a few words about the price of cattle and sheep as one who lives in the middle of a foot-and-mouth disease area. I believe there are at present about two buyers, one for cattle and one for sheep, in that area and the people have to accept the prices offered by these buyers. The price for cattle purchased for the Roscrea factory is, I am informed, £4 or £5 per head less than the ordinary market price. The fact is that the people from the factory go out and pay about £5 per head less than the ordinary market price for a beast.

There are also sheep in this area. I believe the Minister has appointed somebody to go round the country to purchase these sheep but this man also buys sheep at £1 per head less than the market price. That is really taking advantage of the farmers in the area simply because of the fact that they are held up by this unfortunate outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. There is no free market at all. That is a very serious matter from our point of view and it is one of the matters which the Minister should have seen to. These buyers can go round the country and say to a farmer, "I will give you so much. You must take it because if you do not, the animals will remain on your hands". I think that is the real problem in this matter although I do not know whether it is really relevant to the motion or not.

Mr. Kehoe

I do not intend to speak at any great length on this important subject. We have listened to a very ordinary innocuous speech from Senator Johnston. Whether there is a nigger in the wood-pile or not, I do not know but I think the implication which runs through a good deal of the remarks which we have just heard, namely, that the Minister and his Department are in some way to blame, is hardly fair. I think the implication should rather be that with the information at his disposal, the expert knowledge he has behind him and the excellent Department which he is administering, the Minister is certainly doing his best and that any difficulties which have arisen, and which humanly could have been foreseen, have been foreseen by him—in other words, that Senators are merely pushing an open door in this matter. I have not spoken to the Minister on this subject, and I do not know his views, but I imagine that he would be very sympathetic to the question of providing greater facilities for the slaughtering of cattle. It is purely a question of the exigencies of the situation, of venues and of inspectorships and a horde of other things which have to be taken into consideration by the Minister and with which his critics are not thoroughly conversant. From what I know of the Minister personally, I think he would be very sympathetic towards this motion. I do not think anybody could quarrel with it in essence but when we come to carrying it out as thoroughly as it might be carried out, the question arises of venues, inspectorships and of expenses. All these have to be considered seriatim. The Government is best in a position to consider these matters.

Senator Counihan spoke at length, and I really was amused at his adroitness in exculpating both culprits at the one time. From the point of view of straddling a difficult situation, I thought his performance was much better than that of Senator McGee. It reminded me of an old quatrain of Jacobite times with which no doubt Senator Professor Hayes would be familiar:

"God bless the King, the nation's brave defender,

God bless—there is no harm in blessing—the Pretender,

But who Pretender is and who is King,

God bless us all, that's quite another thing."

After hearing Senator Counihan, I could not discern who were the culprits. At one time he exculpated the Minister from blame; at another time he belaboured his colleagues in the cattle industry, while in a further reference to them he beslavered them with a good deal of adulation. However, that is neither here nor there.

Having got in my "skelp" at Senator Counihan, I think he need not worry unduly about the motion. I take it that the Minister will consider the representations made to him in a most sympathetic manner. I would appeal to the Minister when he is giving these extra facilities, which I have no doubt will be forthcoming, to consider the claims of a portion of the country which is perhaps the best in Ireland both for stock raising and stall feeding. I refer to the district around Enniscorthy.

Mr. M. Hayes

The boys of Wexford!

Mrs. Concannon

The Senator is quite altruistic.

Mr. Kehoe

That is a very large district with which the Minister is fairly familiar and it is well served in the matter of abattoirs. The Minister will find that there are ample facilities for the slaughter of cattle, and farmers in that locality have for some time past been urging on me the desirability of utilising these facilities locally. As I say, it is the best cattle-rearing district in Ireland. There is a lot of stall-feeding being carried on but the prices offered recently for fat cattle are certainly not such as would tempt the farmers in that locality to part with their beasts. I would ask the Minister if possible to investigate the possibility of developing a dead meat trade in Enniscorthy in order to serve the needs of that large district.

Senator Johnston indulged in some metaphors about stench, etc. I thought he was going to undertake the Herculean task of cleaning out what to him would be the Augean stable of the Government but perhaps that was too big a job for him. I would ask the Minister again to look into the question of providing local slaughtering facilities for the places I have mentioned. Senator Counihan spoke about the uneconomic price paid for stall cattle. Only about ten minutes previously Senator Johnston adverted to the fact that the price had become economic.

Professor Johnston

That was assuming that there was no foot-and-mouth disease and that no fall took place in the prices.

Mr. Kehoe

We can hardly guard against the decrees of Providence but the prices were economic according to the Senator. Where experts differ I, for one, am loth to interfere.

Professor Johnston

55/- per cwt. might be economic where 48/- was not. 48/- is now the price.

Mr. Kehoe

We all know the definition of experts—minor, minimus and maximus. However, I shall not labour that point any further, but I would ask the Minister to give favourable consideration to the representation which I have made to him as to the extension of facilities for slaughtering cattle in Enniscorthy area.

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan)

The fundamental point in dealing with this problem is that everything we do is done with the object of preventing the spread of foot-and-mouth disease. There is as everybody knows a number of veterinary surgeons attached to the Department of Agriculture. I believe, myself, they are very good men, and I think most Senators will agree with me in that. At any rate, they are the best we can get in this country. If we take five or six senior men there who are directing operations as far as this outbreak is concerned, who confer together every day and, as it were, advise me on any decisions I might like to take from the economic point of view and who give veterinary opinion on it—if they said to me that from the disease point of view such a decision in bad or such a decision is good, well, I am inclined naturally to take very serious note of any advice they may give in that way. People in the country who talk about this foot-and-mouth disease position, and people who write to me making suggestions, some of them in the direction of tightening up the restrictions and some of them in the direction of relaxation, appear to think that they would be able to direct this thing better than the veterinary surgeons. It will be admitted that these five or six men are better equipped to advise on the disease position than any other five or six men that we could get in the country. They have been asked for their advice on various aspects of the disease from an economic point of view.

Professor Johnston

Is the Minister saying that he asks the advice of the veterinary people from an economic point of view?

Dr. Ryan

No. I say that when I decide on an economic proposition I would ask for their advice. I might decide that such-and-such is a good idea from the point of view of the farmer, and then I would ask: "Do you see any risk?" and if they said there was a risk, then of course I would have to reconsider it from that point of view. I do not say that I have strictly adhered to their decisions. I will give you one instance. There is the ban on certain meetings. The veterinary men have stoutly maintained all the time that they could see no risk whatever by running horse races and dog races and football matches. I said that, even so, people have such a terror themselves of these meetings that perhaps it is better, on the whole, not to allow them to go on.

Mr. Baxter

That is very interesting.

Dr. Ryan

I have not taken the advice of the veterinary people on matters of that kind where there was no risk, but I have not ever taken a risk where they advised me that a thing was dangerous. There are aspects of schemes that were suggested here that are, I am afraid, likely to be found dangerous when they are examined. The whole object is to try to avoid contact or to minimise the contact as far as possible between farm and farm and we must, therefore, try to prevent dealers from going from one farm to another. We cannot prevent it altogether, but we must beat it down to the very minimum, and that is what is at the root of a good many restrictions that are made, and is at the root, in particular, of the scheme that was inaugurated for the purchase of meat for the City of Dublin. Now, whatever system might be proposed, I quite admit that a competitive system would be better. It would give more satisfaction, and if there is a competitive system the very essence of competition is that the farmer must have a choice of three or four buyers. That means that if a farmer has cattle to sell at least two buyers would go to his place, and there is more risk of infection that way than by sending one buyer only, within the Dublin area, for the time being. That is the reason why this particular scheme was adopted.

Now, to go back to the beginning, I quite admit that no Senator here is laying any particular blame on me. Senator Counihan says that perhaps I should have got out of the position, quicker than I did, of that committee doing all the buying. To go back to the beginning, I think it was in the middle of the week—I cannot give the date now; it was on a Thursday; we had to stop the Dublin market and all the cattle coming into Dublin. We saw that we had to have cattle killed for the Dublin consumption on the following Monday, otherwise there would be a shortage of meat. We were considering that during the previous day, and practically all day we worked to see what scheme could be adopted. There was the obvious sort of thing suggested that we might allow the farmers to have their cattle conveyed to the Dublin salesmen and have them disposed of to the butchers the next day, but on a limited scale. We feared that if we did this, no matter what order we would make you would have certain farmers who would follow their cattle to the Dublin market to see how they got on, and that there would be a great risk of their bringing the disease back to the farms, and we thought that after the first week you would have dealers going from farm to farm and saying to the farmers: "Well, now, you do not know anything about the Dublin market business, and we will take the responsibility of buying your cattle and we will see them through the salesman and on to the butcher." In that system there was the old danger of contact taking place.

I remember that particular scheme being considered very carefully. We considered other schemes, too, and eventually we said that we must have a scheme where there is one buyer only, and where that buyer is under the strictest possible control—as strict as we can make it anyhow. We thought then that if only one buyer went to the farmers' premises and took the cattle, we would fix the price as well as we could do it, and we would send an officer of the Department with that buyer to see that he was disinfected before he went in and when he came out again, and in that way to try as far as possible to prevent a spread of the disease. Out of that suggestion of dealing with the farmers' end of it, came the idea of organising a committee to take charge. There was another reason for the committee. I might possibly have taken over the buying of cattle, as Minister, if it could be done as quickly as it needed to be done, but Senators will realise that it would be extremely difficult for any Minister to have several thousands of pounds put at his disposal inside a few hours, and to have all the machinery, accounting and so on, set up, which would be necessary to carry on a scheme of that kind in the course of a few hours, because we saw it was a matter of hours on that particular Thursday.

We, therefore, thought that it would be better to get a committee of men connected with the trade, who would come together and do their own financing, and organise the whole of the buying, the transport of these animals to the city, the dealing with them in the abattoir, and the handling of them to the butchers. We laid down prices for cattle and sheep, and a list of prices to be charged to the victuallers. They were subject to revision after the shortest possible time for experience. I quite admit that the officers in my Department are not experts in the analysis of costings to the butchers, or what should be paid to the farmers, and so on, and besides that, there were expenses that would be incurred in this scheme that would be unknown before the scheme commenced. For instance, we asked the committee to send their buyers in a special car from Dublin, and to take our officer with him. Our officer would bring disinfectant, and he would disinfect the buyer going in, issue the licences, and disinfect the buyer going away. We asked also to arrange transport for the cattle, and lorries were got to take the cattle direct to the abattoir or to the station, and if the cattle were brought to a station by train, the lorries would take them on in the station and bring them to the abattoir. That was one expense that was an unknown factor, if you like, because we did not know what would be the extra expense of getting lorries at the present time when petrol is so scarce, and also getting them at short notice in places where they were wanted as the buyer went around.

The organisation of the abattoir was an unknown quantity. It is possible to get the abattoir charges during the ordinary working of the eight or seven-hour day, or whatever it is, but we recognised that, for a short time anyway, it would be a 24-hour day, and that there would be serious congestion, and that there would have to be extra assistance to keep the place clear of the meat as it was killed. We had to do the best we could about the price to be paid for the cattle, and the price to be charged to the victuallers. The next thing was how were we to choose a committee. It was suggested that we might choose the chairman of the national executive of the Irish livestock trade, the chairman of the Dublin victuallers, and three men who were largely in this business of dressed beef in the Dublin abattoir, and these were the five chosen. It has never been suggested by anybody, and it is not, therefore, necessary to refute the accusation, that anybody either in my Department or myself had any personal interest in those men. At least one of those men I had never seen, and the others I had only met by way of seeing them on deputations, and the same applies to the members of the Department. These five men were chosen, and they were asked to do this job, and do it quickly. They met the officers of the Department to discuss the scheme with me during that same Thursday evening, and on the following morning they were making arrangements to buy the cattle, and they had a supply of meat for Dublin on the following Monday, and there was no interruption in the meat supply in the city.

There may have been an interruption in certain shops but, generally speaking, there was no interruption in the supply of meat in the city. These men acted promptly and worked very well and efficiently.

I felt from the beginning, I must say, that there would be a certain amount of criticism of the individuals who would join this committee, but I did not think that it would be so quick or so very severe. The two men who were chosen from the two organisations were, I might say, practically rejected with ignominy by their own members, for having helped on this committee. It is extraordinary that a man who has for 14 years, say, enjoyed the confidence of his colleagues as their chairman should have turned out to be such a reprobate, if you like, in the course of a few days, and be thrown out without very many to stand up for him. At any rate, that was the position, and they carried on. As somebody said to me after that incident, if you were to choose five archangels from the cattle trade, the remainder of the cattle trade would be dissatisfied; and, he said, "You will not find five archangels in the cattle trade".

I should say that these two, and the officers of my Department also, thought at that time that this would be a very temporary arrangement. We were all very anxious—and I am very anxious still, indeed—to get as soon as possible as close as we could to the ordinary flow of trade, with as much competition as possible. I thought that it was only a matter, perhaps, of a week or two and that the important thing was to get it going. I thought it would not last very long and that it would all blow over. When we found, however, that it would not be a matter of a couple of weeks and looked like a matter of a couple of months, if not longer, we thought it was better—in face of all the criticism—to make some change. I wish again to make that clear. I was not dissatisfied in any way with the working of that committee.

I think the figures are very much exaggerated, though I may be wrong. Personally, I must say that I have heard from at least eight or ten people who sold cattle to that committee that they were perfectly satisfied with the price and, in their own opinion, if they got their 53/- per hundredweight they thought it a good price at their own farms. After all, it may have been 56/- a hundredweight for choice cattle previously, and going down from that; but, in that case, the farmer had to send his cattle by rail or lorry to Dublin and had to pay the usual auctioneer's fees and so on at the Dublin cattle market, and had to pay whatever expenses of that kind there may be. I cannot remember the details now, though I have paid them myself.

Mr. Counihan

It would not amount to 3/- per cwt.

Dr. Ryan

No, but it would amount to something and, in making the comparison, it should be kept in mind. Against that, as I have mentioned already, the present committee must pay heavier expenses. Again, I do not know what the difference is. These special lorries had to be disinfected before and after each run from the farm to the station and from the station to the abattoir, or from the farm to the abattoir, and they have to pay increased charges.

Professor Johnston

Will the Minister say whether they are able to put in their pockets any profit they have over after paying expenses?

Dr. Ryan

I will come to that. I do not know what the profit may be. I know it was exaggerated in putting it at £4 or £5 per beast but, whether it was or not, there was no reason, if this necessity were to continue, to operate in this way over a long period. There was no reason why we should continue on that basis and, therefore, I decided to meet the committee and tell them that I would have to make some change. The committee then agreed to work on a commission basis. Seeing that they have agreed to work on that commission basis from the beginning of this week, I hope to be able to make public that basis early next week, but the details have not been fixed yet.

Mr. Counihan

Could the Minister give us an indication now of what the commission basis would be?

Dr. Ryan

About 1 per cent. of the turnover.

Mr. Counihan

Is the Minister aware that that would amount to £60 per week per man?

Professor Johnston

It would mean £200 per week divided amongst five people.

Mr. Baxter

Would expenses be taken out?

Dr. Ryan

Practically all expenses are paid.

Professor Johnston

It is rather a high figure.

Dr. Ryan

It is rather high but, to to go back to what I mentioned before: if in normal times I were to send my cattle to the Dublin market I would not get off with less than 1 per cent. commission.

Dr. Doyle

Will the Minister consider those people held up by the foot-and-mouth disease with fat cattle, and who have to sell them to the Roscrea factory?

Dr. Ryan

I am coming to that. I am giving a history up to the present and will come to the points afterwards. Then Senators will see what took place right through. I say that we changed to the commission basis. Whether we may increase that commission or lower it, at the most I suppose it would only make a difference of about 6d. or 1/- per head of cattle. I do not say that it should not be lowered if possible, but it will not make any difference to the owner of a beast, although it would, by lessening it, make a difference to the people concerned. I am not sure to what that will amount, but I do not think it would amount to as much as £50 or £60 per man per week. That commission is subject to revision after the experience of a week or two, when we have seen how the new arrangement works.

If there is criticism of its being too high—and I agree with Senator Counihan and others who say we should not have profiteering—the only criticism is that five men are getting too much out of it. It is a very small thing when it is distributed all over the cattle and sheep purchased but it may be a considerable amount to the five men concerned.

Mr. Counihan

One per cent. means 5/- or 6/- per beast.

Dr. Ryan

I do not think so.

Mr. Counihan

Well, 1 per cent. on £25 is something like a quarter of a pound per head. They are buying no cattle at less than £25 per head.

Dr. Ryan

I thought from the way Senators were talking that they were buying for much less than that. But, as I said, that will again be subject to revision when we find out what is the amount. We can decide whether they are getting too much or too little and whether we should reduce it by, say, 1/- or 1/6 per head. The charge that they are paying too little to the farmers, and charging the victuallers too much cannot be made any longer. After all, it is no benefit at all to the committee now to pay too little to the farmer and it is no benefit to them to charge too much. In fact, it would benefit the committee to pay too much to the farmer because the commission will then be higher. I do not know whether they will do that or not. If they do pay too much, I shall probably have to get others.

Mr. M. Hayes

The farmer will be happy at last!

Dr. Ryan

We have changed the basis of purchasing and the farmers will not have any grounds for complaint such as they have had. The basis of their complaint was that the committee were profiteering at their expense, as well as at the expense of the victuallers. There will be no more about profiteering, either at the victuallers' or the farmers' expense and the only criticism we may hear in future is that the committee are making too much out of it for themselves. Senator Counihan said that nine out of ten would do the same—incidentally, I would like to get that tenth man. I suppose they would all like to be paid for their time.

Professor Johnston

Is the Minister coming to the points I raised about the issue of export licences?

Dr. Ryan

I gave an outline of the history at the outset and I am now coming to the points raised. I do not want to go back on these accusations that the price paid to the farmers was too low or that the price charged to the victuallers was too high. I think there is an auditor working on the accounts of the operations of the committee up to last Saturday night. When he has finished his work, we will find out then, as a matter of interest only, what the profits were.

Mr. Baxter

Could the Minister say how many cattle the committee handled?

Dr. Ryan

I think it was about 750 a week for three weeks but I am not sure of the number.

Dr. Doyle

You are very disarming.

Mr. Baxter

That is the technique.

Dr. Ryan

It was Senators themselves who were disarming. It is impossible to make a firm speech after the very kind speeches made by the Senators. If the profits were very large, it is possible that if Senator Johnston approached the committee they would make a contribution to the Red Cross.

Professor Johnston

A good idea.

Dr. Ryan

The next point concerns the licensing of abattoirs. Senator Johnston referred to complaints of delay in permitting local abattoirs to start operations. That particular business was covered by the Fresh Meat Act which was passed about 1930, as Senator Hayes will probably remember. Under the Fresh Meat Act the premises, first of all, must be registered, and in order to be registered, they must fulfil certain conditions with regard to structure and so on. These provisions are laid down very fully in the Act, and, so far, we are carrying out the provisions of that Act for the registration of these premises. I think we should continue to do that. I do not think we should take the risk of allowing meat that might be tainted or unfit for human consumption into the British market at the present time. It is quite true that the British are very anxious to get meat at present, and I think they will pass meat at the other side now that they would not pass in peace times. But we took years in this country to get any sort of a good name in Great Britain on account of the eggs we sent them in the last war and we do not want to play the same game now.

Mr. Baxter

Hear, hear.

Dr. Ryan

We should keep up the standard as far as we possibly can, and we should maintain those provisions with regard to the registration of premises.

Mr. Counihan

Is there not a number of premises registered in Dublin already?

Dr. Ryan

That is so, and any premises registered can carry on.

Professor Johnston

Is it the policy of the Minister to further the provision of such facilities?

Dr. Ryan

A number of applications have come in within the last few weeks and these premises are being examined as quickly as we can get over them. The veterinary surgeon who does practically all of this work himself has been out on the job looking at premises here and there during the last few weeks. I do not know whether he will pass some of them or not, but when he comes back he will hand in his report.

Mr. Baxter

Would the bacon factories come under this Act?

Dr. Ryan

Not necessarily, but some factories are also registered as beef and mutton exporting premises. One of those is the Wexford bacon factory. It is registered for all three. Waterford is, of course, also registered for all three, and so is the Farmers' Union abattoir in Cork. Some of the other factories are not so registered. When this veterinary surgeon comes back and hands in his report, if he says a premises is all right, registration is immediately granted. If he states it is not all right, he generally indicates what is necessary to bring it up to registration standard. The proprietor is then told what he has to do to secure registration, and he has to get an idea of what it would cost him. If he wishes to go ahead and alter his premises to bring them within the standard required, he can do so, and he will get registration. It is a matter of economics. I would not like to advise a proprietor to undergo great expense to bring his premises within the prescribed standards because I think that when the foot-and-mouth disease is over, there will not be much in the fresh meat trade. Before the disease started the return from it was practically equal with that from the export of cattle alive.

Mr. McGee

Do I understand the Minister to state that if this veterinary surgeon recommends that certain requirements be carried out in respect of premises already licensed for and capable of slaughtering 1,000 sheep, and if the alterations are carried out so as to make the premises suitable for cattle, the proprietor will get a licence?

Dr. Ryan

Yes. There is one limitation I want to mention afterwards. I have been asked to-day by a certain proprietor of a registered premises whether I thought he would be justified from the economic point of view in spending a certain amount of money to bring his premises up to the required standard. I found it very hard to advise him. I said that when this foot-and-mouth disease is over it will pay just as well to export live cattle as to export dressed meat and if there is a very small change in the price of offals, then he would be better off with live cattle. I told him that I would not like to take the responsibility of advising him to do it. But, I said, "It is a matter entirely for yourself."

On the other hand, of course, a very small increase in the price of offals would give a bigger price in the dressed meat trade than in the price of live cattle. It is also necessary to get an exporter's licence. Senators might not be quite clear on these two points because sometimes there is confusion between them. The premises have to be registered as fit for the slaughter of cattle for export and then a person must get an exporter's licence to export from that premises. In fact, more than one person can get it. For instance, several persons had exporters' licences from the Dublin abattoir before this outbreak occurred. They have them still, of course, but they are not using them now to any extent. There is a very small amount of beef going out but not to any great extent.

Professor Johnston

Under what law is it necessary to get that licence?

Dr. Ryan

Under the same Act—the Fresh Meat Act. There is one particular case I may mention, perhaps —Drogheda. The registration was granted more than a week ago. I think it was last Saturday week, as far as I remember, and the exporter's licence was given to the committee that owned those premises. The committee themselves have not yet allocated days to certain people who want facilities for slaughter. That is the cause of the delay. The delay is not due to the Department. It is due to the fact that the committee find it difficult to allocate the days amongst the various applicants. Those are the points that have to be considered. As a rule we do not refuse an exporter's licence to anybody. If an exporter has a registered premises to work in and if he says he wants to export beef or mutton or pork, as the case may be, we grant the exporter's licence unless he is one of those people listed in all the Acts, either that he was guilty of a contravention of the Act before, or that he is a bankrupt, or something like that. Unless there is any such reason for refusing, he gets the licence. There is one limitation, however. We mean to grant registration to as many premises as we can cover by our veterinary staff and that is one limiting factor.

I should say this: I do not mean now the veterinary staff available at the moment, because none is available at the moment on account of the foot-and-mouth outbreak but I mean in normal times, what we can cover when our veterinary staff come back to that sort of work again. In the meantime, we could get it done by some local veterinary officer perhaps, on some sort of time basis, until we are able to cover it by our own staff. In other words, we could not possibly have a premises registered in every village and town in the country because it would be impossible to have proper veterinary supervision. Therefore, there must be some limit to the number. From that point of view also, we are more inclined to register a large premises than a small one because the large premises can be very much more economically looked after from the veterinary point of view than a small one. That is a thing we have to keep in mind.

Dr. Doyle

Would you protect these people in these areas that I spoke of with regard to cattle and sheep now?

Dr. Ryan

I will come to that. There was one other point in regard to these premises which was raised by Senator McGee. Senator McGee very wisely and fairly said that if a premises was good enough for the slaughter of cattle for home consumption it ought to be good enough for the slaughter of cattle for export. It appears, I must say, to be a very fair statement. However, there is this to be said about it. There is at least the consideration of the size of the place. For instance, take a butcher who is killing on his own premises; he may have a little slaughterhouse in his own yard; he may run it very well and efficiently and keep it very clean and is able to slaughter, say, three or four cattle a week and maybe 18 or 20 sheep a week. But he never could hang in that particular slaughterhouse maybe more than one beast and maybe more than four sheep. That would be absolutely useless for export. It may be very efficient and very well run for the home trade but it would be no use whatever for export. There must be more capacity for hanging. There must be room for packing, whether he packs in crates or in boxes as the case may be and there must be the facilities that are necessary for doing a bigger trade, as it were, than the butcher would be doing in his own small slaughterhouse. But, subject to that, if it is a big slaughterhouse, used for the slaughter of cattle for home consumption, and if it is well done then, generally speaking, with some small alterations, it could be converted into suitable premises for the export trade.

The next point I want to deal with is the point raised by Senator Johnston. He does not see why the Dublin butchers should not be permitted to take their meat from an abattoir like Drogheda or Waterford or Wexford or these places that are doing fairly good business now. There again the consideration is to stop too much contact as between dealers and farmers. That suggestion was one of those put up to us back in the beginning when we set up the committee to deal with the position. We did consider whether we should not get all dressed beef into the city from Waterford, Roscrea and these other places and not allow cattle in at all. As Senators are, perhaps, aware, we dealt with pork in that way. We got all dressed pork in and did not allow pigs in at all for a period and we thought it might be possible to deal with cattle in the same way. Coming down again to examine what would happen if we adopted that system, suppose we said to the Dublin butchers, "Any of you that wish can go down to Drogheda and select your meat there," what I am very much afraid of is that the butcher would go down; he would think perhaps he was getting better value and maybe he would be right in thinking that.

If the seller had two or three good sides of beef he would say, "I will take these back with me and maybe a dozen carcases of mutton." Then, being very pleased with himself, he might meet a dealer, and the dealer might say, "Well, you are pleased with what you got. I will make sure you will get cattle and sheep here every other week, if you come down." In that way the dealer would build up a connection. Perhaps another dealer might come on the scene and in the end a number of dealers would go out amongst the farmers collecting cattle and sheep for the Dublin butchers. That is the sort of thing we are afraid might grow up. Again we come back to the original idea we had, which is to try to prevent, if at all possible, more than one buyer going to any farmer who has cattle for sale.

Mr. Counihan

With regard to that point, the Minister does not contend that every dealer can go out and buy cattle and take them into Drogheda or any abattoir or slaughterhouse and have them slaughtered? Must he not get a licence before he can have them slaughtered?

Dr. Ryan

For export, yes, he must have an exporter's licence. What Senator Counihan is suggesting, perhaps, is that there would be only a limited number allowed to bring cattle into Drogheda abattoir. If that was the case, suppose the limited number was five, why not call them the "big five" in Drogheda, the same as the "big five" in Dublin? I do not see the difference. Unless it is unlimited, competition is no use. It is only a matter of degree anyway. All these things may be an improvement on the present position. I am quite prepared to admit that, but that is the reason anyway why we thought it better to stop dressed beef coming into the city at the present time.

Professor Johnston

Does the Minister accept the point that if the export facilities were adequate the internal price would regulate itself?

Dr. Ryan

I shall deal with that more fully. I got away from it. With regard to the export business, however, I should have said that there are a number of firms in the export business.

The principal four now are Roscrea and the three co-operatives which I have mentioned, Waterford, Wexford and Cork. There are a few other smaller ones, as well as Drogheda and the Dublin abattoir and there are some sheep going also. I have some figures here—unfortunately, I cannot give the figures for all the firms—but for these four, taking them together— that is, Roscrea and the three co-operatives I have mentioned—they exported 4,000 beef carcases in the month of March.

Professor Johnston

That is very good for this time of year.

Dr. Ryan

Yes, it is very good for this time of year. Now, there are certain areas where there is a fair amount of competition, but there are also other areas where there is no competition. I am referring now to the point made by Senator Doyle. First of all, let us take the Dublin area. That area would include the county of Dublin and a bit of the County Meath, close to the city, and there is no competition allowed there. Nobody can buy fat cattle or sheep in that area except the committee. Outside that area, however, in County Kildare, the rest of Meath, and other counties, the buyer from Roscrea or Wexford or Waterford can compete against the Dublin buyer, and, to that extent at least, there is a certain amount of competition. Again, take this matter of the 15 mile redius for the borough, to which Senator Doyle refers. There is only one area, and that is Roscrea, and the whole County of Dublin comes under the 15 miles radius, but within that radius there is only one buyer allowed, and that buyer in the case of Dublin, is always accompanied by an officer of the Department. In the case of Birr he is accompanied by a veterinary surgeon within the five miles radius. Admittedly, there is no competition in such a case, because we do not want more than one buyer going to the man who has cattle or sheep for sale. It is alleged that the buyers from Roscrea have taken advantage of the situation, and perhaps that is true, but I do not know.

Dr. Doyle

Undoubtedly, they have.

Dr. Ryan

Well, that may be so, but I have had letters in that connection from two farmers, one in County Wexford and the other in Carrick-on-Suir—perhaps Senator Quirke would know that district better than I do— and in these two cases I wrote back to the farmers concerned and suggested that they should write to Waterford. As a result, Waterford sent a buyer to them and the farmers wrote and thanked me, not only for the amount of competition, but for the price they got.

Professor Johnston

Of course, there is real competition down there, or at least greater facilities for competition.

Dr. Ryan

Yes, but I should say that Waterford is working on commission almost altogether. They pay so much for the meat according to quality, and in that way they are paid for their cattle.

Professor Johnston

Are not Waterford and Wexford doing an export business in the dead-meat trade?

Dr. Ryan

Yes, but there is a real difficulty there just as in the case of the Dublin area. We cannot afford, at the present time, to allow more than one buyer to go around there. However, I shall take a note of what Senator Doyle referred to with a view to seeing what we can do to enforce the paying of a fair price in that area for cattle.

Dr. Doyle

And for sheep also.

Dr. Ryan

Yes. We are trying, in the Dublin area, to see if we cannot give the alternative to a seller of cattle or sheep of a live-weight price—particularly in the case of cattle—but so far it has not proved to be practicable. The farmer is inclined to be suspicious of a dead-weight price, because he does not know what may happen in Dublin.

Mr. Counihan

He will accept the live-weight price?

Dr. Ryan

Yes, but he is not inclined to accept the dead-weight price.

Mr. Counihan

Would it not be possible to arrange for a live-weight price?

Dr. Ryan

As I have said, we are trying to arrange for an alternative. Now, it has been suggested to me that there is a passage into the Dublin market from the abattoir. I am told, on the one hand, that the passage is there and that it is only a question of knocking down portion of a wall, but from another source I am told that that is not possible. However, I am having that matter investigated and I am getting a report upon it.

Mr. Counihan

Even if the passage were not there, would you not have to cross the street, and would it not be an easy matter to disinfect the street—lay down disinfected straw—and in that way you would avoid any danger of infection?

Dr. Ryan

Well, I do not want to take refuge under the wings of the veterinary staff of my Department, but they do lay very great stress on the danger of driving cattle across a street or roadway. If you are driving cattle across a particular street or roadway it might be possible to give that particular spot a good disinfecting every evening, and that is a matter that is being examined. I should like very much to be able to give the farmer the option of the live-weight price, because that would probably do away with a great deal of the criticism of the present scheme, and naturally I want to avoid as much criticism as I can.

Mr. Quirke

In that connection, I should like to point out to the Minister that there is a lot of criticism about gypsies travelling around the country with their horses and other animals. I should like to know whether any action has been taken in that regard.

Dr. Ryan

Well, there is just one more question that I should like to deal with before I come to gypsies. Senator Kehoe started by accusing, or complimenting, if you like, Senator Johnston on pushing an open door. Well, he started pushing an open door himself in great style in asking me to do something for the County Wexford, but I am afraid it is not so easy to do all that the Senator wants us to do. I agree that the Enniscorthy district is probably one of the best in the country—the Senator, probably would say, in the world—for producing cattle, but it must be remembered that there are other places nearby besides Wexford, and if the people are not satisfied with Wexford they can go to Waterford. I know of the case of one farmer who sent his cattle to Waterford instead of to Wexford and he was well satisfied. Accordingly, they are not so badly off in Enniscorthy in that respect. It is true that there would be more cattle in that area at this period of the year than in other areas, because they go in for late stall feeding, but seeing that Wexford is already there and that they have access to Waterford, I do not see what can be done.

Now, with regard to this question of the gypsies, various sources of infection have been suggested, and we get several of these suggestions every day in the Department. These are all examined by the veterinary staff, if they have not been examined already. One of the suggestions was that gypsies and tinkers should not be allowed within five miles of an infected farm, and I do not see what more you can do in the matter. After all, you must leave these people and their animals on the road. You cannot put them anywhere else. If you were to put them on a farm, the farmer would probably object. So far as I know, however, they have not spread the disease. Before I conclude, I should say that I have tried to get an analysis of the cases so far, with a view to ascertaining what was the cause of the spread of the disease. I have not got a complete analysis. A complete, scientific analysis would entail a lot of work and would mean that we would have to take members of our staff away from the important work they are doing at the moment, and it is only the veterinary surgeons who could make a proper analysis.

However, we have got a summary, or a short account, if you like, of every case, and it is evident, from that, that in the great majority of cases the disease was spread by human contact, and that in all these cases it was spread by human contact from farm to farm. So far as we can find out, the disease was not spread at race meetings, or greyhound tracks, and so on, but from farm to farm. The disease was spread in various ways. For instance, what occurred here in Dublin at the beginning was that a case of foot-and-mouth disease broke out in a certain yard. There were three or four men working in the yard—drovers and minor dealers—and they all came in to have a look at the affected animal. They all became very expert, as they thought, and when there was a report of another outbreak of the disease in another yard, these alleged experts went over to have a look, and thus spread the disease further.

Mr. Baxter

Was there not a vet. on it?

Dr. Ryan

No, the vet. was on his way. Our powers were limited during these first two or three days in Dublin. In the beginning, for instance, we had not power to compel a man to stay in or to compel him to go out. These fellows were very keen on their Constitutional rights and they would not stay in or go out when told to do so. A great deal of harm was done in that way before we got the Emergency Orders which gave the police certain powers. I am only giving this as an instance of how the disease was spread. Another instance was where a man was employed by a certain employer. He might or might not have been there on the day the thing occurred, but he just went off and hired himself with another farmer. This was responsible for a big outbreak. He hired himself with another farmer. That farmer asked him had he any contacts. "No," he said, "I came from County Cavan." Why he said he came from County Cavan I do not know, but he was hired and after he was there for some days the whole herd went. As time went on, things were tightened up very much because people began to realise that it was necessary to take stringent measures. As far as the Department was concerned they were just as strict in the beginning as they are now, but they found it absolutely impossible to get people to co-operate. They are cooperating much better now.

Mr. Baxter

Is there any evidence that farmers were cloaking it?

Dr. Ryan

Yes.

Mr. Baxter

And are you paying them compensation?

Dr. Ryan

They have not been paid yet. There is a good deal of talk about the regulations not being strict. I should like Senators to realise what happens in these cases. A farmer suspects that one of his cattle has foot-and-mouth disease. He goes to the local barrack, the Gardaí in the barrack telephone to the Department and, as quickly as possible, there is a veterinary surgeon there. If it is a place within 30 or 40 miles of Dublin, the veterinary surgeon is there within two hours. At the same time as the telephone message is sent to the Department one of the Gardaí is sent out to the farmer's place and he tells all the people there that they must stay where they are, while he does not allow anybody to go in there. If the veterinary surgeon on arrival verifies the case as one of foot-and-mouth disease, the men on the farm are kept there until the veterinary surgeon sends back for his disinfecting outfit. These men are then thoroughly disinfected before they are allowed out. After a thorough disinfection and fumigation of their clothes, they get the option of staying in on the farm or of going out and staying out. These measures are now being carried out very much better than in the first instance because people are more willing to co-operate than in the beginning. The slaughter of the cattle is then proceeded with.

In the case of Dublin here, we were able to dispose of the cattle very much more quickly than in the country because it was only the few affected cattle that were buried. As a rule, all the rest were immediately shifted for manufacture into meat meal. Cattle that were not in contact with the affected beasts, that were out in a different house or in a different field, were slaughtered for the manufacture of canned meat, not in the ordinary abattoir because we want to keep the abattoir if at all possible free from the disease, but in a smaller abattoir in the city. In that way, we have succeeded in clearing some of the Dublin areas in the course of a few hours. In the country, of course, it is a slower job. We have been accused of being too slow, of delaying for five or eight days in dealing with affected cattle. I think that is hardly fair. In some cases we may have delayed as much as five days, but there were peculiar circumstances and we could not act as expeditiously in these cases in the country as in normal cases. We have got the assistance of the military in many cases and as many as 100 soldiers have been out digging pits. The digging of these pits, of course, is an enormous job. They have to be seven feet wide and as much as nine feet deep. Then you allow about a yard for each beast. Sometimes the pits are as much as 100 yards long. They take a lot of digging, but the beasts are disposed of as quickly as possible. In the country the work may not be carried out as quickly, but it could not be done more efficiently or more quickly than it is. The big cause of the trouble was concealment.

Mr. Baxter

That is dreadful.

Dr. Ryan

The cause of the infection in Prussia Street which started the trouble in Dublin, the cause of the infection in Birr which started the trouble in that area, and the cause of the infection in Naas which started the trouble there, was concealment. If the disease had not been concealed, these three sources would have been dealt with much more rapidly.

Dr. Doyle

Could the Minister state what was the cause of the infection in Ballacolla, the area of the original outbreak?

Dr. Ryan

We never discovered that. There are about three cases that we cannot account for. Various theories have been put forward. One was that plover were migrating at that time and it is possible that they could have carried infection. It is quite possible that plover carried it from Donegal to Ballacolla.

Mr. Counihan

I want to raise another question about the precautions that should be taken. Are not farmers still allowed to bring manure from yards in Dublin? I have made some representations to the Department in this matter but I still see it going out.

Dr. Ryan

Has the Senator seen it?

Mr. Counihan

Yes, definitely.

Dr. Ryan

Is the Senator sure it is going to a farm? Manure was allowed out to allotments.

Mr. Counihan

I have seen it on lorries passing along the roads.

Dr. Ryan

Farmyard manure was allowed to the allotments all right. The allotment holders were given manure.

Mr. Baxter

Where was it taken from? Not infected places?

Dr. Ryan

Not infected places, certainly.

Mr. Baxter

Would it be covered up quickly?

Dr. Ryan

It would, of course.

Professor Johnston

I think the debate has done quite a lot of good for the situation and I regard the Minister's statement as fairly satisfactory in all the circumstances of the case. I do not see why the House should not accept the motion in its present form and without any division or opposition of any kind, and I put it that the House should be asked to do so.

Cathaoirleach

The question is that the motion be agreed to.

Dr. Ryan

I do not see any objection.

Mr. Baxter

Before it is accepted or rejected—I notice in the Minister's statement in regard to the payment of compensation in cases of concealment he says that the Minister may refuse to pay. I do not know whether it is the wording of an Act or not, but my view is that if the Minister said definitely that he would refuse to pay where there was concealment it would put an entirely different complexion on the statement.

Dr. Ryan

What the statement is, is that the Minister may refuse to pay, and will have no hesitation in doing so. That is the power he has under the Act.

Mr. Baxter

That is all you can say?

Dr. Ryan

Then, he says that he will have no hesitation in doing so.

Mr. Counihan

I think that is quite enough.

Question put and agreed to.