Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 May 1941

Vol. 25 No. 13

Minerals Exploration and Development Company Bill, 1941—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. MacEntee)

This Bill is a further measure intended to secure that such of our mineral resources as are capable of being worked economically will be developed. The provisions of the Bill follow closely the provisions of the Slievardagh Act. In both cases the Minister for Industry and Commerce is authorised to register a company under the Companies Acts. The share capital of this company will be for a nominal amount, as was the case under the Slievardagh Act. The moneys needed in this case will likewise be provided by way of repayable advances. In this case, as in the case of the Slievardagh, the amount of the advance is limited. Here the limit is £50,000. The sums needed from time to time will be borne on the Vote for Industry and Commerce. Before proceeding to discuss the purposes of the Bill, the Seanad might expect a word from me in justification of the method adopted for financing the new company. Certain members of the Seanad criticised the method adopted for financing the Slievardagh Company. They argued that it was bad finance to fix at £100 the nominal capital of a company charged with the development of a coalfield, and they expressed the hope that the precedent created in the Slievardagh Act would not be followed in other Bills. I have carefully considered the points which were made, but I have found myself unable to depart from the procedure which was embodied in the earlier Act. There are very good reasons for not departing from it.

In a speculative enterprise, financed out of public moneys—and all mining enterprises have necessarily an element of speculation about them—it is desirable that the activities of the company to whom the enterprise is entrusted should be kept under reasonably constant supervision by the authority which is providing the finances—in this case the Oireachtas. The provisions in this Bill require that the moneys to be provided for the company should be carried annually on the Vote for Industry and Commerce, and that procedure will provide members of the Oireachtas with the opportunity of examining the progress which is being made by the company, and of considering the returns being secured from the enterprise; and if it is found desirable in the light of the facts as they then exist, of either curtailing its activities or putting a definite end to them, the Oireachtas has the opportunity of doing that under the method of financing which is provided for in this Bill. Secondly, the total amount of moneys that may have to be put at the disposal of the new company cannot be estimated even roughly at this stage. The amount of money which it will require will depend on the extent and character of the exploration work which the company finds itself justified in undertaking.

The cost of any particular project can only be estimated when the company has actually received tenders for the work. At this stage the number of prospects which the company may decide to investigate over a period of time is a matter of sheer conjecture. It is impossible in such circumstances, to try to make an estimate of the company's requirements. All we can do is to fix a limit to the State's commitments under the Bill, and within that limit to provide the company with such finances as its activities, from time to time, may require, and as the Oireachtas may think to be justifiable. This Bill, therefore, and the Slievardagh Act are similar in their general framework, and in the method adopted for financing them. The task to be entrusted to the two companies, however, are in some respects not quite similar. The primary task of the Slievardagh Company was the specific one of developing a coalfield which had already been surveyed. The general task of the company to be created under this Bill will be to survey and examine areas which have not yet been examined, and to report which of them contain deposits that are worth developing. The importance of this task and the necessity for it, I think, will be readily accepted.

The first step towards a proper exploitation of our mineral resources is to learn more about them, their extent, their accessibility and their practical value. Our knowledge to-day under these heads is so meagre that all we can say about the majority of our mineral deposits is that we know of their presence. Nobody can say authoritatively that they are worth developing. Neither can anybody say that they are not worth developing. The idea that there are no mineral deposits in Ireland capable of economic exploitation may be as far removed from the truth as the idea that the country is rich in mineral resources. The primary object of this company is to ascertain what the truth is. No real progress can be made until the facts are established as precisely as it is possible to establish them.

There is, of course, no guarantee that the surveys and prospecting to be undertaken by this company will lead to the establishment of successful mining enterprises. In mining ventures, there are no certainties. All that can be said is that there is a chance that self-supporting mineral enterprises will be established as a result of the investigations to be undertaken under the auspices of this company. One of the factors favouring that chance is the revolution that has taken place during the past 50 years in metallurgical and mining technique. New methods for the development of areas have been evolved and, under these, lodes which were formerly regarded as worthless can now be worked at a profit. The general task of the company, therefore, will be to ascertain all that can be learned about our mineral deposits and to assess, as far as we can, the potentialities they possess. With that general task, the provisions of Parts I and II of the Bill deal.

Part III of the Bill goes further. It invests the Minister for Industry and Commerce with powers to acquire on behalf of the company certain kinds of mineral enterprises as going concerns. Admittedly, the powers sought by the Minister in this part of the Bill are wide, but they are also carefully circumscribed. The Minister is not being authorised to acquire compulsorily enterprises of all kinds. Compulsory powers are limited to the acquisition of concerns engaged in the development of mineral substances which are essential to the life of the community, and these can be acquired only when the quantities raised are short of the quantities needed by the community— when it would appear that it is in the public interest that they should be taken out of the hands of inefficient or inexperienced management and entrusted to more capable persons with a view to developing them to the extent to which they can be utilised to meet the public needs in present circumstances.

For any concerns which may be acquired under Part III of the Bill compensation will be payable. There are, in this part of the Bill, rather elaborate provisions regulating the payment of compensation and the basis of its assessment. The rules about compensation follow the rules laid down in the Minerals Development Act. The compensation may be fixed by agreement and, in default of agreement, is left for settlement by the mining board. The mining board, as the House is, perhaps, aware, is a tribunal which was first established under the Minerals Development Act of 1931 and re-established under the Minerals Development Act of 1940. It has been selected as the tribunal to which claims arising under this Bill will be referred for settlement for the reason that, by its very constitution, it is ideally suited for assessing the value of minerals and mining enterprises. The chairman of the board must, under the Act, be a barrister or a solicitor of, at least, ten years' standing. The second member of the board must be one of the panel of official arbitrators, appointed under the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919. The third member must be an officer of the Department of Industry and Commerce.

In the details of the Bill there is, I think, nothing which needs special mention. In deference to what was said in the Seanad when the Slievardagh Bill was being discussed, I have provided that the accounts and reports of the company shall be laid before the Seanad as well as before the Dáil. Parts I and II of the Bill follow the provisions of the Slievardagh Act. Under Part III, the kind of businesses which may be acquired on behalf of the company are described. As I have already indicated, they must be mining enterprises working commodities essential to the life of the community and they must furthermore be enterprises which, in present circumstances, are not meeting the needs of the community so that a more efficient exploitation of the minerals concerned is desirable. In this part of the Bill provision is made regarding the notice to be served on existing owners and the method of settling the compensation which may be due to them for the property acquired. The last section of this part of the Bill provides that an annual statement shall be furnished to the Oireachtas giving particulars of the company's operations during the year, including particulars of the businesses acquired by the company during that period.

Mr. Fitzgerald

The Minister drew an analogy between the first and second parts of this Bill and the Slievardagh Act. Frankly, I did not like the Slievardagh Bill. Under normal circumstances, I should have voted against it, but the Minister may remember that one of the guiding points to agreement with it was that it related to an immediately-felt want arising out of the emergency—the shortage of fuel. If the Slievardagh mines were of real value, considered in relation to world prices, normally one should expect some private person, moved by motives of his own betterment, to take them up and develop them.

If the people in this country may be short of fuel, it might quite reasonably be right and proper that we should disregard what might be called a fair price for fuel, and be allowed to spend what would be really more than it was worth, in order to produce more in the special circumstances. The Minister says that Parts I and II roughly provide for a survey and that at the present moment we only know that there are certain minerals in certain places, and that it is worth paying to find out whether they are in exploitable quantity or not. I agree with that.

In so far as this Bill arises out of completely abnormal circumstances of the time, when we are spending money in a way which would be quite lunatic except in these peculiar circumstances, I do not see why we should not spend it to find out if there is anything in the country which would have a certain moral effect on people who think that their patriotism requires them to pay no regard for truth and to believe that this country contains minerals existing under the soil when, in fact, they may not exist at all. That has never been my idea of the requirements of patriotism. The Minister says that Part III of the Bill gives him rather remarkable powers. I believe that the Executive should have much more power than Deputies think but, in this sphere, the Government should have practically no power in normal circumstances. He says that the powers will relate only to enterprises relating to a mineral which is nationally necessary and will only relate when the national needs are more than the present quantity produced. He did not clarify that point.

It may well be, in relation to a particular substance, that nationally we consume more than is produced in the mines in this country producing that substance. That may be the case, but we might have all we want by buying something that, normally, can be imported at a reasonable price. If he is assuming that we need a certain amount nationally, that these mines produce a less amount, and that the deficit in requirements is not obtainable from overseas, in the present circumstances, then I quite agree. The procedure he suggested seemed to me to imply that the mines would only be working—as far as one could judge by any reasonable calculation—after the present emergency would be over. He seemed to suggest a sort of dual activity—surveying and then buying out these companies. I cannot quite recall the Minister's point now. We ought to hope that by the time the surveying would be complete — even taking a pessimistic view—the emergency would be over.

The Minister also talked about companies being efficiently run and that the Bill provided that the new control must contain a barrister of ten years' standing, a civil servant, and a valuer — at present on the board. Frankly, I have not much belief in these businesses run by civil servants.

Mr. MacEntee

The Mining Board is merely for the purpose of assessing compensation. It is an arbitration tribunal.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Personally, a barrister does not seem to be——

Mr. MacEntee

But he will not run the business.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I object on principle, in a general way, to a Government deciding that a man who owns property is not running it efficiently, and deciding that somebody should take it over. Therefore, in so far as the activities provided under this Bill are really analogous to the Slievardagh mines case, I would support it at the present time. We supported the Slievardagh case because it related to fuel at a time when the people may be caused definite suffering by lack of fuel. We know that the money might be spent wastefully, and decided we would not be too exacting or too exigent to see that the Government got value for the money. In relation to the taking over of these businesses, I would be glad to know if it will relate only to something which is immediately necessary, and which cannot be obtained from overseas at present. I distrust a Government Department with the powers we are giving them, in that they may become enthusiastic and start all sorts of businesses which would continue after the emergency. I do not mind continuing one, if it can be shown to be an economic proposition. While the abnormal circumstances are present, one does not need to know that the cost per ton of the given substance will not be greater than the cost per ton normally in the world, but we should not be committed to some business which will carry on after the emergency, if the costs are one penny per ton more than we would pay for the same goods outside.

This Bill arises directly out of the emergency, to meet circumstances belonging to the emergency, and it is of such a nature as to be analogous to the Slievardagh Mines Bill. That might be well and good, but I feel it is a danger, in relation to any Government during this period of emergency. The tendency is for the Government to extend its powers and sphere of operations in every way. That is very dangerous for the situation after the emergency. We have all sorts of emergency powers here now, which we have agreed to rationally, though rather reluctantly, because they relate to particular circumstances. When the emergency is over, it will not be as easy to get back into normal circumstances as it was to get into the abnormal circumstances.

I would like to feel that the Government, in exercising these powers, will not only accept the limitations in the Bill, but will interpret them in a very rigid way, and will not put up money unless it is vitally necessary to the people at this time for something which is not procurable otherwise. I should like to feel also that it will be borne in mind that the real specific purpose for such activities arises out of the emergency, and that, as soon as normal conditions are restored in the world, the whole situation will be considered in the light of the new circumstances, and the Government Department concerned will not feel that it must continue such schemes merely in order to justify what it has undertaken in the emergency time. I should like the Minister to give the House the assurance that this is an emergency measure and that it will be strictly interpreted as such.

Mr. Honan

My intervention at this stage is more or less of an inquiring nature. We are interested, in the County Clare, in mineral resources which we have there as phosphates, and would like to know whether they will come under the terms of this Bill and, if not, whether this Bill could be expanded or enlarged in some way. I have no authority to speak for the present proprietors of those minerals, which are in private hands. I am aware that if there were more capital and a bigger organisation the scheme could be very much extended. I believe at the present time they are producing about 300 tons per week of raw material. Every farmer will tell you that phosphates will be the thing most needed in the coming season. There is an unlimited supply of the raw material there and if it were developed to the full, instead of 300 tons a week, about could produce 300,000 tons a week. I wish to inquire if it will come under the scope of the Bill in any way so that it may be further developed.

Sir John Keane

The Minister referred to this method of finance. Whatever the objections may be to the method of providing fixed capital adopted in the Industrial Alcohol Act, in the case of an enterprise which was intended to give us a substitute for imported petrol, and which I now understand is not being operated at all, it seems rather roundabout and rather misleading to apply loans which are going to bear a rate of interest and be repaid. As far as I can see there is no conceivable prospect of a company like this earning anything and being in a position to repay loans and interest. It is rather a pretence that we should put it in that form. But there it is. I suppose later on the Minister will have to go through the form of asking the authority of Parliament to remit the interest which has accumulated, and so on. It seems a roundabout business, but I am afraid when you get a mixture of State and business you do get extraordinary roundabout methods and fictitious situations, which, of course, no business enterprise would ever have for a moment.

The essential section in this Bill appears to me to be Section 18 (a). Apparently this company can only acquire commodities "essential to the life of the community". Consider the ambiguity that would cause in the case of a mining enterprise about to be acquired. Picture to yourself the difficulty of the judge who would have to determine whether the mineral was essential to the life of the community. Imagine the arguments the lawyers would have on a point of that kind. I think it would be far better if the Minister were to schedule the minerals that this company should have power to acquire. Limestone, you may say, is essential to the life of the community. Lime is certainly essential now when there is a shortage of fertilisers. Is gold essential to the life of the community? I rather doubt it.

Mr. Fitzgerald

It is, for wedding rings.

Sir John Keane

Platinum can be used. People who can afford it prefer it. I suppose if a brass ring were used, they would still be married. Is silver essential to the life of the community? I very much doubt it. Is copper essential to the life of the community? There is a substitute for it. What has the Minister in mind? How is he approaching that? It seems to me a very loose term and you are going to turn the courts loose on that. It is the basis of the whole Bill—"essential to the life of the com-community"—and I do not see how you could ever make the case. I can conceive no mineral that is essential to the life of the community or for which you could not get a substitute.

Mr. McEllin

Bauxite.

Sir John Keane

Bauxite, I am told. I think it is the basis of aluminium. I am told of the enormous resources of some mineral we have here, which is one-third lighter than aluminium and 20 per cent. stronger, and it is only difficulty of one kind or another which prevents its being developed. I wish the Minister would deal with that point, but I do think he should attempt to approach it more directly and schedule the minerals that the Government has power to acquire instead of walking into a terrible region of disputation and doubt in a provision of that kind. That is the only thing I have to say at this Stage, but on the Committee Stage I may have to make some more detailed comments on certain subjects.

Mr. Quirke

I rise to support the Bill. The only thing I wish to say about it is, I believe it is long overdue. Senator Fitzgerald said that it was suggested by certain people that unless a man believed there was any amount of minerals everywhere under the soil of this country he would be regarded as not being a good Irishman. I would not go as far as that, but I would say that a Minister for Industry and Commerce who would not explore the possibilities of mineral development in the country would not be a good Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Sir John Keane

He has been a long time before doing it.

Mr. Quirke

I think it is a proper thing for any Minister for Industry and Commerce or any Government in any country to examine the situation and see exactly where they stand as far as possible development of their own country is concerned. It is quite evident from Senator Fitzgerald's speech that his policy is a free trade policy. Perhaps he does not say it in so many words, but it is quite evident that his policy would be that if the war happened to end suddenly, when we were half way through with the development of a mine, we should stop short.

Mr. Fitzgerald

What I want is that the circumstances of the emergency will not commit us after that. If in normal times we would be buying bauxite, or whatever it might be, gold or silver, from abroad at £x, I do not want, because there is an emergency and we pass this legislation, to commit the State afterwards to producing it here at £x plus £y. Let us consider it then de novo; not embark on something in abnormal circumstances and continue it.

Mr. M. Hayes

It is not fair to smother Senator Quirke both in algebra and Latin.

Mr. Quirke

I have no notion whatever of getting into a discussion on x plus y or x2 plus y2, or anything like that. But all those theories have been blown sky-high within the last four or five years and definitely within the last 12 months. If you were to follow that policy to its logical conclusion, in normal times—I am not talking about a period of emergency at all—we would be importing potatoes here; we would be importing oats and wheat and everything else, because they can be produced cheaper somewhere else. That policy is just national insanity and because the people regarded it as national insanity they turned away from it and adopted another policy. However, if I were to talk like that I would be accused of talking politics in a non-political House. I believe that a good deal of work remains to be done in that connection, and if we really wanted, for example, to ascertain how little we know with regard to the minerals in the country and what minerals we have, we need only go back to the Slievardagh Report, where we found a variation of something like 95,000,000 tons between one expert and another. As a result of our lack of attention to such matters we found ourselves when the war broke out with practically no resources so far as artificial manures are concerned. Possibly, but for the war, we would never have developed the phosphate mines in Clare. As far as the x plus y policy is concerned, the economic value of any proposition must necessarily be decided by the natural conditions and regardless of what the conditions may be when this war is over we should all agree on one thing, and that is that we have learned a lesson by the position created by the war, and that if we had never got into the war or into a state of emergency such as the present, we should produce such necessary materials at home.

Sir John Keane

Irrespective of the cost?

Mr. Quirke

I would not go as far as to say irrespective of the cost, but very nearly irrespective of the cost.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I am afraid if the Senator goes on the Minister will withdraw the Bill.

Mr. Quirke

I do not think there is the slightest danger that the Minister will withdraw the Bill, when he did not withdraw the Bill when Senator Fitzgerald supported it on the assumption that coal came in circular seams.

Mr. Fitzgerald

He did not say anything of the kind.

Mr. Quirke

I think if the Senator looks up his speech——

Mr. Fitzgerald

If the Senator looks up the debate he will see I am right.

Mr. Quirke

I support the Bill, not on the understanding that it is an emergency measure. There may be some argument to be made against Section 3 in times other than an emergency, but there can be no reasonable argument against the other sections which ought to be the normal procedure in the country.

Mr. Goulding

A Cathaoirligh, I am not a very great optimist at all about the mineral wealth of this country, but I am quite prepared to spend a certain amount of money in finding out whether we really have much mineral wealth or not. I am not an advocate either of the Manchester School of Economics. I think, as Senator Quirke has pointed out, we have discovered the fallacy of that policy already and though it may be financial heresy, I think that the people of this country would be wise to pay a little more for the material produced in their own country by their own people than it can be obtained for in some country abroad.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Stressing the word "little".

Mr. Goulding

Because after all, you must realise when you import any material from a foreign country you are supporting the people of that country. You are paying their wages and you are paying the dividends of the shareholders of the country that produces these things. It would be good finance and good economics to pay a little more for the article in your own country and pay these dividends and these wages at home. Now I think that is elementary. I think it would be worth while spending money to find out whether we have the mineral wealth some people think we have. Personally, I do not think we have it, and as one who has made a little experiment in that direction I may tell you that it has not strengthened my belief in the mineral wealth at all. I wonder how much money has been lost in this country in mineral exploitation. If one goes into County Wicklow, which is the biggest county in this connection, and if one goes to the Vale of Avoca and looks at the abandoned mines there it is clear that there is an enormous amount of money sunk in these mines. Men who were enterprising enough to sink shafts and run galleries through the earth here and there discovered a certain amount of minerals, but they lost all their capital.

It is quite possible that there is mineral in some of the other counties. We always held when the British Government was in power in this country that they deliberately concealed any minerals that we had and did not make any effort to prospect for our mineral wealth and we held that when we got control of the country into our own hands we would prove to the whole world that we were possessed of enormous mineral wealth. Well, now it would be just as well to spend some money in proving whether we or the other people were right. Although I do not expect any great return from these things I think it is worth a trial. I think that this company will have a roving commission to prospect for minerals all over the country, but I take it that this will not be a development company. For instance, if it discovers a deposit of any of these minerals we have here in any county in Ireland it will make a report and then it would be left to private enterprise to work that deposit.

Mr. MacEntee

Not necessarily.

Mr. Goulding

So it is going to be a prospecting and a developing company, and that is what the £50,000 is for?

Mr. Fitzgerald

I understand that if the Minister decides to take over some company his Department will ask the Oireachtas to vote money for that purpose, but will it come out of the £50,000?

Mr. MacEntee

Before the money is voted we should have to mention the purpose and the amount.

Mr. Fitzgerald

But can the total of the votes amount to more than £50,000?

Mr. MacEntee

No, they cannot.

Mr. Goulding

£50,000 will not go very far if we are going to go developing the mineral wealth. I think that the companies already engaged in mineral exploitation but not efficiently run can be taken over.

Mr. MacEntee

Well, they can be taken over under the Minerals Act of 1940.

Mr. Goulding

And compensation paid?

Mr. MacEntee

Yes.

Mr. Goulding

Well, a certain hardship might arise in that case. A company not efficiently run might not have sufficient capital, and instead of persuading that company to get more capital the thing will be taken out of their hands and given to another company. I am afraid there is a certain amount of hardship there, and I am afraid there is a danger of interfering with the rights of the individual.

They are taking out of the hands of that company a thing of potential value that the company had been operating but at the time they were not able to run it efficiently for want of finance. Why not place the State finances at the disposal of the company by means of a debenture or mortgage charge on the company's assets instead of taking it out of their hands altogether? I think there is a certain amount of danger of hardship there.

Mr. MacEntee

Part I and Part II of this Bill are intended to operate in what would be normal circumstances and their purpose is to enable a company to be set up whose primary task would be to explore and survey our mineral deposits. Senator Goulding has said that we have only got to look at the wrecks of mineral enterprises which are to be found all over the country to realise how much money has been sunk in mineral exploitation and how much money has been lost, and lost because of the fact that there had not been made an adequate survey to settle whether it was justifiable to initiate the undertakings or not. I feel, at any rate, that the fate of so many mineral enterprises has been so ill-starred that before we can hope to induce private enterprise to look at mineral development seriously we shall have to be in a position to give a much greater information in regard to them than hitherto. One of the primary purposes of the company is to secure that information.

After the information has been secured, it will fall to the Minister to decide, if the company's investigations show that it is a workable mineral deposit, whether the deposit is going to be worked by this company, by another company set up ad hoc or by, what in my view would be preferable, a competent private enterprise. If we found that there were persons who were competent, with the necessary experience and capital, or at least with substantial capital resources, they would be assisted by the Department—at least they would be assisted by me so long as I am Minister in charge of the Department—and we would endeavour to get private enterprise to undertake the development work. If we do not succeed in interesting private enterprise in a mineral deposit which we think should be developed, bearing in mind the public good, then it would fall to us to consider whether we should utilise this company to develop it or set up a new company ad hoc for that purpose. In either case we should have to come to the Dáil—in the case of this company, for the necessary finances and, in the case of a new company, for legislative authority to set it up.

The third part of the Bill is related directly to the present emergency. Section 18 states that:

"Whenever it appears to the Minister that for the purposes of obtaining in adequate quantities, commodities essential to the life of the community, the common good requires that the working of any particular deposit of minerals should be controlled by the State, and that to secure to the State effective control of the said deposit of minerals it is necessary that the Minister should acquire a particular existing mining business engaged in working the said deposit, or a portion of the said deposit, the Minister may either acquire the said mining business by agreement or, in default of agreement, compulsorily acquire the said business."

Senators will note there that the acquisition can only be for the purpose of obtaining commodities essential to the life of the community, and that only in cases where the common good requires that the working of these commodities should be controlled by the State. Quite obviously, I think it can be said that that relates only to the circumstances in which we find ourselves. At least, that was my idea in introducing the Bill. I think, in all the circumstances, that will be the principle which will be accepted by my successor in due course. There are one or two deposits in existence at the present moment where examination may lead me to the conclusion that it would be my duty to exercise the powers conferred by this section, but I think we can take it that I should feel bound to be able to justify to the Oireachtas, in the cases to which I refer, so that there would be no doubt whatever that the commodities in question were essential to the life of the community. However, if I, in the exercise of the powers under Section 18 proposed to acquire a business which was, in fact, not essential, the persons concerned in that business would, of course, have a remedy. They could go to the court, and they would have an opportunity of disproving my contention, the contention of the Minister, that these commodities were essential to the life of the community. Accordingly, since there is a resort to the courts left to the individuals concerned, I think that we may take it that the Minister would be chary about exercising the powers under Section 18 unless he were fully satisfied that it was essential to do so in the circumstances of the present time.

Reference has been made to the fact that the limit of repayable advances which may be made to the company is £50,000. It has been quite properly pointed out that that would not go very far in developing a mineral project. We have fixed that limit by design in order to make it quite clear to the Oireachtas that our operations under this Bill are going to be subject to very strict and rigorous Parliamentary control. If we did propose to undertake an ambitious development, the cost of which would exceed £50,000, we would have to come to the Oireachtas again with a new Bill and ask them to extend that limit. We should have to explain to the Oireachtas why we wanted more money.

Mr. Fitzgerald

It need not be a new Bill. It could be an amendment of this Bill.

Mr. MacEntee

It could be an amendment, but in fact it would be a new Bill. It would be a Bill amending the principal Act. In view of the fact that the amendment was limited to an increase in the aggregate amount that was voted by the Oireachtas, we might assume that the discussion on the Bill would be narrowed down to the simple purpose for which that particular money was required. Therefore, the whole merits of the project would be discussed and debated in the Oireachtas. We have adopted that course because it seems to us to ensure reasonable Parliamentary control over the operations of the company.

Mr. Goulding

The Drumm Battery was a case in point.

Mr. MacEntee

The Drumm Battery was not financed under an Act of the Oireachtas. It was financed by annual Votes. Its financing was not controlled, as the financing of this company will be controlled, by a special statute.

Reference was made by Senator Honan to the Clare phosphates. Well, it probably will be one of the things we shall have to look at, but I would not like anybody in the House or in the country to be under any illusions about the Clare phosphates. The amount of the deposit there which may be easily worked is comparatively small. In fact, I do not think that if the whole of the easy accessible deposits were to be taken out in one year, and if it could be manufactured, that it would go one-third of the way to meet our demands for phosphatic manures. However, naturally, it would be one of things which would have to be looked at. But more important, perhaps, than the development of the phosphate deposits in Clare, would be the work of trying to ascertain whether there were other more extensive and better phosphatic deposits in this country.

Mr. Baxter

Is there any reason to think there are?

Mr. MacEntee

Well, it has been recommended to us that we ought to look for them. On that, there is no indication that there may be any others. I should not like the House, either, to assume on this Bill that if we acquire mining businesses in the present circumstances, or if developing companies are set on foot, that it would be intended to continue to operate them after the emergency had passed. It might be desirable to continue to operate them after the emergency has passed, but on the other hand, if the deposits were limited and small, it might be advisable to discontinue their operation after the emergency, and have them in reserve to meet such a position as we find ourselves in to-day. Accordingly, I would like the Oireachtas to understand that in relation to the operations of this company there is no very set and definite policy of setting up a mining business and of continuing to work it irrespective of conditions which might exist after the emergency. The main purpose of the company is to get a truer and better knowledge of the extent of our deposits, and concomitant with that, and arising particularly out of the emergency, to try to see what we could do to bring about a more extensive and efficient exploitation of such mineral deposits as may be at the moment available and as may be capable of supplying the commodities which are according to the phrase used in the Bill "essential to the life of the community".

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 27th May.

The Seanad adjourned at 9.35 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 27th May.