The Minister's picture is one of unrelieved gloom, but perhaps he is not to be blamed for that. He told us he could not now assume the role of a financial Messiah. I am not quite clear of the implication of the metaphor, but the Party to which the Minister belongs, and for which he was a continuous and vigorous propagandist, did at one time assume the role of a financial Messiah, and held before the people a picture of the financial and economic paradise which would be reached shortly after they had been entrusted with the kind of task which the Minister is now facing. Unfortunately, they turned out to be false prophets. I agree with the Minister that when expenditure has been determined the rest follows, and that the Minister for Finance in every Government is, to some extent, the victim of circumstances over which he himself has not complete control. In the case of the Minister for Finance, the policy of his Government is one with which, in expenditure at any rate, he may not agree. A Minister for Finance frequently finds himself in the position that his heart, his political protestations, his political past and ideals are in agreement with those of his colleagues; but, somehow or other, his head—into which his officials have been endeavouring to insert heresies which his colleagues would not like—is endeavouring to minimise expenditure necessitated by Government policy. In the present circumstances the Minister is the victim, not only of Government policy, but of a war over which he has no control. The situation is a very difficult one, and none of us would begrudge money to meet it, but one wonders whether this particular experience of ours is doing us any good or teaching us—in this hard school which we are attending—any lessons for the future.
The principal increase is in income-tax, which is a fair tax—except in cases where, through certain confusion, it is so imposed as to interfere with employment and business, and thus reduces the resources of the country, and ultimately the amount of money available to the Minister himself. Those who advocate higher taxation to provide certain monies for Government expenditure must remember that the collection of the money by the Government and its expenditure are much more expensive than by private individuals. Relief work undertaken with money obtained from householders is not as advantageous as if the same amount of money were spent by the householders themselves on repairs and decoration or such like.
I take it that, on this stage of the Bill, we have leave to discuss general questions of policy and some particular questions which we would have no opportunity to discuss at all on any other stage. Here in this country it is nearly 20 years since the first Finance Bill was introduced, and I do not know whether we have learned much in the interval. A great many of us believed, very sincerely, that political freedom was the cure for a great many spiritual and material ills from which our country suffered or from which we thought it suffered. We have now come to the stage when we recognise that political freedom is far from being the nostrum or cure the Minister—and I was in complete agreement with him at the time—thought it was. Apparently it is not a solution for these evils. Having got that political freedom we adopted the particular fashions of the time. We went in the direction of economic nationalism and self-sufficiency. It was preached and believed that tariffs and the development of what are called our natural resources would give us a situation in which we would have less expenditure, higher national income and more comfort all round.
I think we can be in agreement that tariffs even before this war did not provide the solution for unemployment. The present Government, supported wholeheartedly by the Labour Party, put into operation a very thorough-going tariff policy, and even before this emergency was upon us this tariff policy had failed to solve unemployment and failed to give a higher standard of living, and had struck certain blows which made our whole economic structure rather dangerous. Similarly we have been in the habit of boasting that our expenditure is very great, because we have many social services and because we give considerable subsidies to agriculture. But surely these two things are indications of themselves that our policy has failed to secure for the people a standard of living in which they would not need a great deal of social services and a situation in which agriculture, our principal industry could fend for itself. We had not reached either of those situations. We failed to solve unemployment and we have failed to sustain our farmers in reasonable production, which would be reasonably profitable to them. So that intensive industrial development plus an intensive nationalism have not gone far towards the solving of our problems. Added to that the Minister had a policy of wheat production, and I have often heard it said that that wheat policy has saved us in this emergency. It is arguable that if we had not that wheat policy we would have more wheat and more flour, and we would not be in a danger of a bread shortage. It is because of the preaching that wheat should be produced in this country that we are in the position that we did not buy wheat when it was cheap and when shipping was available. We might have imported and tilled as well.
We do not know what kind of new order will succeed this. Various belligerents and various prophets are preaching the new order or new orders of different kinds. Whichever side wins the war, or whether it is inconclusive and is concluded in such a way that nobody is the victor, it is, I think, quite clear we shall pass out of the phase in which small States will have or will appear to have complete control of their own affairs. That is not to say that they will not have control to some extent, perhaps they will have cultural and educational control, but there can be very little doubt that the policy of a great multiplicity of small States, each aiming at economic self-sufficiency, is gone. We in this country should be taking some thought of what the new situation is going to bring to us, and how we must adjust ourselves to it when it comes, even if we cannot predict what precisely it is going to be like. In this country at the moment to anybody who remembers the last war the position would appear even gloomier than the Minister painted it. Our industrial policy, instead of demonstrating that we can be self-sufficient, seems to me to demonstrate beyond question that we cannot, and that we must rely on external trade in order to have a reasonable standard of living, and that we are dependent upon external trade for the greater part of our employment, and even for a considerable part of our agricultural employment. The national policy, since 1922, has not succeeded in stopping emigration.
I took a meal on Monday evening last in the house of a national teacher, a married national teacher who had just retired because she was 61 yesterday. In that small school 30 years ago there were 120 girls and 96 boys, and to-day there are less than 100 on the roll and the average is falling. In other words, we have not succeeded in stemming emigration and in maintaining our rural population. Nor do we appear to be on the road to doing that in spite of all our protestations and in spite of all our plans and in spite of the very vigorous effort that the present Government has made in putting their policy of self-sufficiency into operation. Now, Sir, let us turn to another thing which is gloomier still. One of the reasons why some of us were very anxious for Irish freedom was that we might have control of Irish education. I remember some of those regarded as great extremists many years ago, long before the Treaty was signed—I remember Terence MacSwiney, for example, saying to me one evening that one might consider taking almost any kind of Home Rule that gave us control of the school. We have control of the schools, and we have been teaching Irish in them and we have been teaching Irish history, but I wonder is our national spirit any better as a result, I wonder is it any higher, any more vigorous than it was in 1921, or even if I may go back further, in 1911, which was perhaps rather a low point. I stayed last week-end near a very flourishing Irish town, where everyone tells me that hundreds of men and a considerable number of women have gone to England to work, and are going every week.
Apart from those, we must remember those who have gone to join the British Army over the Border and figure, I presume, as part of the contribution of the Six Counties to the British war effort. The thing that struck me most about it was, that nobody appears to think there is anything wrong about it, and in spite of our education and preaching of nationalism nobody appears to think there is any obligation on anybody to make any sacrifice to stay at home. It means a considerable amount of money coming into the towns from these people in England and I wonder in spite of our neutrality, of which we are so proud, whether we are not contributing as much in men and women to the British efforts in this war as we did in the last. It is not the same kind of war, men do not get killed in the same way in bayonet fighting as they did in the last war. It is fought in a different way. Man-power is used in a different way, and woman-power is more important than ever. Granted the changes in the system it does appear that we are contributing as much as ever we were in the last war, and at the same time we are maintaining an Army at home and paying the immense sum of money that the Minister demands in this Budget.
At the same time our situation differs very materially from our situation in the last war, because neither our farmers nor any other section of our population are making any profit now. I am very far from saying that it is within the power of the Minister or anybody who might replace the Minister suddenly to remove that situation. It would be good for us and for our future if we did some thinking, some facing of the facts and if we realised that particular things, upon which we placed great reliance, have failed us, that a new situation faces us to-day and that we must inevitably adjust ourselves to it. One of the things for which I would not begrudge any money is the committee the Minister has set up for the finding of substitutes for articles which we cannot get from outside. The argument that money should not be spent for that purpose because the war might suddenly end is a bad argument. I think that everything possible should be done in that direction. Nobody would begrudge any expenditure for that purpose. One wonders why, at the outset of the war, that committee was not set up.
Again, take a point the Minister mentioned to-day, which shows how politics and political speeches and Acts of Parliament cannot overcome hard, economic facts. During the whole period of our industrial drive, when factories were being built, when immense capital expenditure was being undertaken, very often without any regard for cost, our customs revenue was good. In spite of all the taxation, goods still kept coming in. One of the great losses to the Minister for Finance at present is the decrease in that customs revenue, either because the goods are not able to come in or because they are not there to come in. One wonders whether it would not be a good thing for Ministers, instead of stressing our neutrality and instead of preaching to us the horrors of war, to try a little public education and to indicate the things which we used to believe in and which do not now seem to have the same value that they once had. At the moment, our relationship with foreign countries is in the hands of the Minister for External Affairs and our economic relationships are very largely in the hands of the Minister for Supplies.
The Minister for External Affairs hardly ever talks about external affairs except on the wireless to America. Sometimes he talks rather enigmatically at home. At other times, he talks at a great distance on the wireless in circumstances which remind me always of the Leader of the Sinn Féin movement and not at all of the Minister for External Affairs of a recognised State. We cannot have it both ways. We cannot take upon ourselves the responsibilities and duties of an organised State and, at the same time, behave as if we were merely members of a political Party in a country "rightly struggling to be free," as the phrase used to go. The country gets no assistance at all from the Minister for External Affairs on this question of external affairs.
With regard to the other question of our economic relations with the people who supply us with goods—who turn out to be the British, in spite of all the talk—we have to depend on the Minister for Supplies and the Minister for Supplies has made a reputation for unreliability. We have to depend upon him to tell us what our economic relations with other countries are with regard to supplies. He appears to me to be a past master of frank and forceful misstatement of simple facts. Over and over again, he has misstated our position with regard to supplies coming from Great Britain. He has excused himself and he has never scrupled to misstate the position where it would appear to suit his political book. That is a very serious state of affairs for the people. We are really in the position with regard to the war that if we do not get into it—and I hope we shall not—we are expected to thank the Government and if we do get into it, then, at any rate, Ministers have told us it is a very bad thing.
May I come to two smaller points. The Taoiseach spoke last Saturday at Ennis and mentioned the evacuation of cities. I wonder what Government policy on that matter is or whether, in fact, their policy could have any clear statement. The Taoiseach said it was the duty of heads of families to take such steps as were open to them to get their children away to the country. Anybody who knows Dublin City—and the great danger, presumably, is in Dublin City—knows that the great majority of the heads of houses, and of the heads of families who have no houses but who live in rooms, are quite unable to take any such step. The Taoiseach suggested that a "little experimenting during the holiday period" would not be out of place. A little experimenting! Imagine the people of Gardiner Street "trying a little on experimenting" during the holiday season. It is possible for me to experiment and for a certain number of others to experiment during the holiday season but we are a small minority. Having seen the bombings convenient to my own house and in Donore Avenue and the North Strand, it would appear to me that the real danger is, as the Taoiseach and other Ministers have stressed over and over again, the bombing of our thickly-populated tenement-house areas in the City of Dublin. One wonders what precise steps it is intended to take regarding these people. It seems to me that there has been, in that matter, great uncertainty of touch. It is a long time since the City Manager in a broadcast at, I think, the suggestion of the A.R.P. authorities of the Government, suggested that the people should evacuate their children from Dublin. People cannot evacuate their children from Dublin except under a Government scheme. Instead of purporting to deal with that matter, it should be left alone or it should be dealt with clearly.
Another thing stated as a matter of Government policy in Ennis on Saturday was this:
"The military forces could not be too strong and men of military age and physique should, if free, regard it as a duty to join up. Those unable to join the whole-time forces should join the Local Defence Force but, except under exceptional circumstances, young men should not attach themselves to the Local Security Force, which should be reserved for older men."
I am not one of the young men. Therefore, the matter does not concern me. I should like to ask, as a person with no military knowledge and no technical understanding of the problem, if it is true that the best place for a man at the moment is in the Army? We have all read the newspapers since September, 1939, and surely the various nations which have suffered defeat in this war did not so suffer defeat because of lack of soldiers. Surely, if the broadcasts to America are to be believed—and I accept them in full— what we lack is not man-power but equipment. If more men are to be taken into the Army, it would appear to me that they should go, not into the Army proper but into the Construction Corps. I wonder which is the policy of the Government, because this Bill taxes us to provide for the Army. I wonder whether, in fact, certain types of people should be forbidden to join the Army. I am a member of the Local Security Force, and I was on duty in the North Strand after the bombing. One thing that struck me and everybody else who went there was that the demolition squads, the people who had to pull down houses and to search for bodies, were composed of men who had skill and experience, who needed skilled supervision, who needed great physical strength and who were absolutely indispensable in that situation. I doubt very much, for example, that builders' foremen should be allowed in the Army at all. Have we any rule about that? Quite a number of these people have gone to England, but instead of saying that every young man in employment should join the Army, I wonder should they be encouraged to join the Army?
We were speaking about national spirit a few moments ago. Quite a number of people have had, nevertheless, to go to England to seek the wages offered there. Is it advisable to say that the demolition corps, the Air Raid Precaution services and even the Local Security Force service do not require a certain number of young men? I regard that kind of statement as being apt to be very much misunderstood and as displaying very little acquaintance with the work of these bodies. It is certainly not proper, having regard to the duties we have seen the Local Security Force perform, to say that no young man should join the Local Security Force. It may be that men from 18 to 25, or even up to 30, would be better in the Local Defence Force or in the Army, but in the case of bombing or air raids, the duties to be performed by the police—and the Local Security Force are a police force—are very onerous and they require, even at the North Strand, to take our latest example, young men to perform them. From my own personal experience, I could not agree at all with the suggestion that no young man should join the Local Security Force. I think that we ought to encourage people to join the Air Raid Precaution services, the Local Security Force or the Local Defence Force according to their circumstances and according to their inclinations. Certainly, having watched the Air Raid Precautions people in operation, I am strongly of the opinion that this service should not be manned exclusively by people over 40, still less by people over 50. They do require, at any rate, a certain number of young men.
The view that what we want is soldiers in uniform is very shortsighted. It is an easy thing to say, but it by no means corresponds with our real needs. I hope that is not the policy. I wonder if the Taoiseach before he enunciated his views consulted responsible military and Gárda officers, or medical officers, or whether he consulted the Minister for Finance himself. The Minister has not only to contribute for the Air Raid Precautions or the Local Security Force, but he will have to pay in full for the soldiers. Perhaps he was not consulted, but in any event I think we should have some more close thinking on the matter than is displayed in the paragraph I have quoted.
It seems to me that one of the best ideas put forward and which should get every development it possibly can was the Construction Corps. When the war is over—it must be over some time—we shall be obliged, instead of demobilising our Army at one fell sweep, which would be impossible, to turn a considerable portion of it into a construction corps, so that the more framework and the more machinery you have for that purpose during the war the better for everybody. It seems to me that in this desperate situation there is no use in talking about not having enough men for turf cutting. It should be possible to get men for every job that has to be done, if necessary by compulsion. That may not be a popular thing to say, but when we are in the position the Minister has talked about, where our taxation is increasing and our productivity is decreasing, where the possibility of getting taxes is becoming less and less, then if there is a job to be done, steps should be taken to see it is done. Of course, again it is difficult for a Party Government to do that, but it is easier to do it than to deal with a very desperate unemployment situation later on.