Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Nov 1941

Vol. 26 No. 1

Public Business. - Imposition of Duties (Confirmation of Orders) Bill, 1941 (Certified Money Bill)—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

As the House is aware, orders made under the Emergency (Imposition of Duties) Act must be confirmed by legislation within eight months after being made and Bills of a similar character to this one have been introduced from time to time to secure confirmation for the orders outstanding at the time.

Under this Bill five Emergency Powers Orders are to be confirmed. Three of these orders, Nos. 70, 155 and 214, were made solely to give power to permit of importation free of duty under licence in respect of the articles mentioned—gas meters, mineral hydrocarbon heavy oil and articles in packages. Previously there was no power to remit the duty on these articles in any circumstances. Under the orders set out in the Schedule, power to admit importation free of duty under licence was a conferred. The other two orders arise as a result of an examination of existing duties by the Tariff Commission in accordance with the trade agreement made with the Government of the United Kingdom in 1938. Under that agreement the Government of this country agreed to refer for examination to the Prices Commission certain duties, including the duties upon certain clocks and upon hollow ware. In due course the Tariff Commission was asked to examine these duties and their recommendations came to hand some time ago. Effect was given to their recommendations by these orders. In the case of clocks, the recommendation was in favour of the creation of a preferential rate for goods of United Kingdom origin. In the case of hollow ware, they recommended a reduction of the duty, from 40 per cent. to 30 per cent., in the preferential rate applying to goods of United Kingdom origin. These are the five orders that the Bill has been introduced to confirm. I do not think any of them is of major importance, certainly not at the present time. It was considered desirable that we should have the power of admitting articles free of duty under licence in the categories mentioned in the orders in the Schedule of the Bill in present circumstances, when exceptional conditions might justify the use of that power, even through these conditions would not prevail in normal circumstances. In the case of the other two orders, the action of the Government in implementing the recommendations of the Tariff Commission follows automatically on the terms of the agreement with the United Kingdom.

Mr. Douglas

I have read all these orders and, as far as I have knowledge of them—and I have knowledge of several of them—I entirely approve of them. The three referred to first of all by the Minister are really for the purpose of making it easier to obtain supplies where necessary, and I do not imagine there is anyone in the House who would want to place any obstacles in the way of the Government in taking the necessary steps at the present time. In regard to the, other two orders, as the Minister has pointed out, they had no option in the matter. In any case I think they are an improvement. I think that would be agreed. I have heard no objection from the trades concerned and I think I would have heard if any objection was going to be seriously raised. As everyone who has anything to do with trade knows, the position of supplies is getting more difficult and I am afraid, in the near future, unless something unexpected occurs, it may become more difficult in many directions. Therefore, anything which gives the Government discretionary power to make it easier to obtain these supplies where they are obtainable should have everybody's support.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister on his action, by means of another order, in providing for the taking of a national register. In that matter, he very wisely accepted the minority view, as against the majority view, of this House and even though he was perhaps a little late in coming round to that minority view, I think it is better late than never.

Question put and agreed to.

Cathaoirleach

When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?

Mr. Lemass

If there is no objection I suggest the next stages might be taken now. The first of these orders, No. 70, was made on the 15th March, 1941, and the legislation confirming it must be enacted before the 14th of this month.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Is that the order in relation to gas meters?

Mr. Lemass

Yes. The point is that if the Bill is not passed before the 14th the order becomes invalid so that it is a question of taking the next stages now or meeting next week.

Mr. M. Hayes

Take the remaining stages now.

Agreed to take remaining stages now.

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.

Schedule and Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment.

Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be returned to the Dáil."

Mr. M. Hayes

On the Fifth Stage, I would like to add my voice to that of Senator Douglas in congratulating the Minister, since he has seen more of the supply problem which this Bill to some extent deals with, in adopting the idea of a national register. Not only has he adopted the idea of a national register, but he has also, I think, taken some other steps suggested in the course of the arguments made by those of us who were interested in that particular motion. It is something that we should be able to influence Government policy and influence legislation.

Mr. Foran

How does this arise? What is your ruling on it, a Cathaoirligh?

Mr. M. Hayes

For example, Order 83——

Mr. Foran

Senator Hayes was in the Chair in the Dáil and he ought to know something about procedure.

Cathaoirleach

I am permitting a passing reference, Senator.

Mr. M. Hayes

I am so clear about procedure that I know Senator Foran is not in the Chair. I know also that he is not in order in interrupting a Senator who has not been ruled out of order by the Chair. I hate to hurt his feelings, but I do not know what he objects to in all this. I was going on to say— and I hope I will not vex him any more—that we have influenced legislative orders a great deal, even Order 83. Certain amendments suggested here were made promptly by the Minister. I only want to add my voice to that of Senator Douglas in congratulating the Minister in coming to a decision about a national register, even though it is 18 months after that was suggested.

Mr. Foran

Would I be in order in referring to Order No. 83 now?

Cathaoirleach

No.

Mr. Fitzgerald

My remarks are interrogatory. I do not pretend to carry all these Imposition of Duties Orders in my mind, but I understood the Minister to say that the order with regard to gas meters was necessary because the Government had not power to grant the licence excluding the duty. This order was made last. March. It seems to me that if that position existed last March and the country has gone "gas meterless" in the meantime it was quite a serious matter or could conceivably be a serious matter and I would like to ask have all these Imposition of Duties Orders been examined with a view to the Government taking power that could even conceivably, in the future, be necessary so that they could grant the appropriate licences? If it happens that something is urgently needed here and the Government has not power to grant a licence and has to wait till it goes through the ordinary legislative procedure, people may be put to considerable hardship. I would like to think that the Government examined all of them and took powers to itself to act promptly when necessary.

Sir John Keane

I would suggest that the Government are quite able to take powers when they want them without any suggestion from this House.

Mr. Lemass

These orders came into force when made so that the power existed since last March to grant licences for the free importation of gas meters and there need be no delay in making these orders when the circumstances justifying them arise. The Government have had power to grant licences for the free importation of goods subject to import duty in certain circumstances, but not in all circumstances, except where such a licence clause was inserted in the original order. The circumstances which arose in relation to gas meters and to these other commodities were not contemplated when the original duty was imposed. It was the change of circumstances due to the war that, in the Government's opinion, justified the taking of additional powers in relation to these commodities. I can say, for the information of the Senator and of the House, that the Government is examining the position in relation to a number of duties with a view to the possible suspension of some of them, where it is clear there is no useful purpose being served by keeping them in existence. In regard to certain commodities, I do not think very much good will result from removing the duty as the goods will not be available. Against the off chance that some individual might be able to secure supplies of the goods concerned and to avoid putting that individual to the necessity of going through the procedure of applying for a licence and getting a licence, it is probable that some duties will be suspended. A number of orders to that effect have been made recently. These orders arose out of other arrangements made for the control of imports of the goods concerned, where it was considered necessary to keep control over the flow of imports so as to give us power to direct them into the channels where they were most required.

Mr. Douglas

I entirely agree with what the Minister has just said. The very fact of having to apply for a licence and of having to wait two or three days, sometimes means that the goods are not available by the time the licence has been obtained. Traders in certain cases are placed in a difficulty because goods coming into the country are in very many cases, to my own definite knowledge, higher in price at present without a duty that they would be if purchased in Eire, so that circumstances are now completely different, and I think the course indicated by the Minister in relation to the reduction or abolition of duties of a temporary nature is a very wise course.

Question put and agreed to.

The Seanad adjourned at 3.25 p.m.sine die.