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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Mar 1942

Vol. 26 No. 9

Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Bill, 1942—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The customary provision is made at Section 2 for the continuance in force of the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts for another year, that is, up to the 31st March, 1943. This year the Bill contains some additional sections, mainly of an amending nature. The purpose of the majority of these is fairly clear from the context, but I shall explain them briefly.

The number of acting promotions which has taken place in the Defence Forces since the commencement of the emergency has rendered it desirable that specific provision should be made in the Acts for this class of promotion. Existing legislation, while adequate, is of a general nature and does not distinguish between substantive and acting promotion. It is also desirable to cover by legislation the question of reversion from acting higher rank, which has hitherto been dealt with in Army regulations. Acting promotion carries with it, of course, the liability of reversion at any time. The necessary provision in regard to commissioned officers is now being made at Section 4, and in regard to non-commissioned officers and men, at Section 5.

As regards Section 6, the civil courts have had before them a number of cases in which irresponsible soldiers were found guilty of damaging civilian property in such ways as by breaking windows. As the law stands, the courts in such cases are unable to make orders in regard to compensation with the certainty that they can be met, although, in similar circumstances, a court martial or a soldier's commanding officer can order deduction to be made from the man's pay. It would be wrong, however, that civilians injured in their persons or property by soldiers outside military quarters should have to look to military courts for redress. It is proposed, therefore, to give the civil courts the necessary power to deal adequately with offences of the nature which I have mentioned by the enactment of Section 6.

Section 7, in so far as the main principle is concerned, is a repetition of a section in last year's Act which provided that no soldier or reservist would be entitled to be discharged during the emergency. For administrative reasons, it is desirable that the method which has been adopted in practice of deciding the status of men held in Army service under that section when their ordinary engagements have expired should be covered by legislation and this is now being done.

Section 8 is also a slightly amplified version of a section of last year's Act. The addition consists of the application of the procedure set out in the 1925 Act to officers of the Reserve of whom there is now a large number out on permanent service. Last year's section related only to officers of the Forces.

Sections 9 and 10 have for their purpose, mainly, to ensure that the Defence Forces (Pensions) Scheme, which refers to military ranks only, will equally apply to marine ranks and grades of rating and that persons holding military rank, on being transferred to the Marine Service, may be given the equivalent marine rank or grade of rating or vice versa.

Sections 11 and 12 are in the nature of qualifications of Section 57 of the No. 2 Act of 1940 and Section 8 of the Act of 1941, which provided that temporary officers, soldiers who enlisted for the period of the emergency and Reserve officers and men out on permanent service, would, on return to civilian life, be entitled, subject to certain conditions, to be restored to their former civilian employment.

Those sections were enacted to protect the interests of the classes mentioned. The basis of such protection is, however, the State's expectation of receiving good and loyal service and it is considered that the State should not continue to extend its protection in this important matter to persons who do not give satisfactory service. In addition, the former employer himself must receive a degree of protection.

I feel that nobody will cavil at the proposal that dismissed officers and soldiers, discharged with ignominy or by sentence of court martial, should lose their right of reinstatement in civilian employment. Where an officer is dismissed, serious misconduct is invariably involved and, since the officer has failed to give good and loyal service, he has forfeited his right to the protection of the State. The soldier dismissed with ignominy or by court martial sentence is in an exactly similar position. A further consideration is that the former employer could not reasonably be expected to reinstate such an officer or soldier, particularly if the dismissal or discharge was occasioned by an offence of a criminal nature.

Neither, I think, can objection be taken to the proposal to deprive of their right of restoration to civilian employment soldiers discharged for having wilfully made a false answer on attestation, for misconduct or on conviction by the civil power. Any doubts which Senators may have in the matter will be resolved on consideration of the following points: A soldier who, on attestation, makes a false answer of such a relatively harmless nature as giving a wrong age or address, is not, as a rule, discharged if that fact subsequently comes to light. Discharge takes place only where a serious misstatement is involved. A soldier who makes a wilfully false answer of such a nature that he must be discharged when that fact is discovered obtains a contract with the State by false pretences and puts the State to considerable expense for his training, maintenance, equipment and payment. He has not, therefore, any right to State protection. Again, a soldier discharged for misconduct is invariably guilty of some serious offence or misconduct. A record of discharge for misconduct, naturally, affects a man's prospects in civilian life and for that reason the military authorities are reluctant to discharge a man on that ground if such a course can be avoided. Where there is no option but to effect a soldier's discharge for misconduct, it may be taken that he is definitely of an undesirable type and it would be most unjust to require a civilian employer to reinstate him in his former employment. A soldier is not as a rule discharged as a result of conviction by the civil power unless his offence is of a definitely criminal nature and, in such cases, again, the position of the former employer must be considered.

I do not think that I need say anything about the third category— unapprehended deserters. These are the persons mentioned in Section 11 as persons to whom Section 119 of the Principal Act applies. Apprehended deserters are not specifically covered because of the fact that, on being apprehended, they are not as a rule discharged but, after having served the sentence imposed on them by the military authorities in respect of their desertion, are required to complete their army engagement with a period equal to the period of absence and detention added. If, however, they are discharged on completion of the term of detention, discharge is effected "for misconduct" and Section 11 will apply in such cases.

It is, I think, unnecessary for me to say more on this subject, except to add that the proposed sections will not prevent an employer from reinstating a former employee but will only remove the right to reinstatement. The employer may, if he so desires, take back into his service any person to whom Sections 11 and 12 apply, so that it is quite possible that many such persons, if the circumstances of their dismissal or discharge from the Defence Forces are not of a definitely criminal nature, may find it possible to secure re-employment in their former work or business. That, however, is a matter for the employers to whom the State will, through the enactment of Sections 11 and 12, have given a reasonable and necessary degree of protection against having to reinstate persons of clearly undesirable character.

As regards Section 13, it has been found that, in the majority of cases, there is no necessity for the procedure set out in Section 54 of the No. 2 Act of 1940 in regard to persons arrested as suspected deserters, because the arrested person admits from the beginning that he is a deserter. It is now being provided, therefore, at Section 13 that, in such cases, the arrested person will be handed over to the appropriate military authorities without any formalities, the existing procedure of bringing an arrested person before a district justice or peace commissioner for inquiry being retained for persons who deny that they are deserters or for cases where any doubt exists.

Question put and agreed to.

When will the next stage be taken?

I would be glad to have all stages to-day, if possible.

Agreed to take remaining stages now.

Bill considered in Committee.

Sections 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 5 stand part of the Bill."

I was not present for the first part of the Minister's statement, but I presume that, inasmuch as this is new legislation, it was brought in because a change has been made in relation to what is provided for in this section. I should like to know what change is being made by virtue of the sub-sections in this enactment. They state the Minister or any officer authorised by him in that behalf may promote or may reduce any member of the Defence Forces holding non-commissioned rank or grade.

It is because of the fact that we had to bring in acting promotion. At present almost every promotion is of a temporary character. Men are promoted from one rank to another in an acting capacity.

Only in relation to officers. Does it relate to non-commissioned officers also?

The same applies. Promotions at present are mainly in an acting capacity. The time may come— I suppose it will come—when they will have to revert. This gives power to revert in respect of officers or men in the lower ranks.

As the Minister speaks of officers, they receive their commissions from the head of the State. I take it that this also relates to non-commissioned ranks. It would be a very serious matter if a lesser authority than the head of the State could actually commission a man. I do not think that applies here and that this Bill relates only to non-commissioned officers. Is not that right?

In Section 5, yes.

It would be a very radical change if you were going to give power to commission to anyone other than the authority I mentioned.

That does not apply here.

The Minister seemed to imply that it did. At present can a man ranking as a non-commissioned officer be promoted, in that way from corporal to sergeant? To reduce an officer there should be cause shown and that would involve the Executive. What is the present machinery for reducing a man from the rank of sergeant to corporal, or promoting him from corporal to sergeant? What difference arises out of this Bill?

At the present time the officer commanding the unit is the promoting authority.

The only one?

Yes. The question of reverting a non-commissioned officer is in the hands of the commissioned officer. He promotes or he reverts as he deems prudent.

What is the normal rank of the officer who does that?

He is the company officer.

The effect of this now would be that a lieutenant may promote or demote. We will assume that a company officer decides that a man who is a corporal should be made a sergeant or that a man who is a sergeant should be made a corporal. The company officer would be, say, a captain. Now this says that the Minister or any officer authorised by him may promote a non-commissioned officer. I am trying to make out what is the purport of this. I gather from that that it means that a lieutenant may also do so.

Yes, if he is authorised.

At the present moment he would not have that power. He would not have that power until this change is brought about?

That is right.

Section put and agreed to.
Sections 6 to 15, inclusive, and the Schedule agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be received for final consideration."

On this stage, I desire to raise a point analogous to that to which I referred just now. Section 4 says that the Minister may promote any officer to a higher substantive rank and that the Minister may promote any officer to a higher acting rank. Then it goes on to say:—

"An officer promoted to higher acting rank shall at any time thereafter, on a direction to that effect being given by the Minister, as published in Iris Oifigiúil, revert to his substantive rank or, as may be so directed, to an acting rank higher than his substantive rank.”

That does seem to me to be a very radical change. The Minister will say that a large section of the men in the Army now are on a temporary basis for the duration of the emergency, therefore there is something impermament about the ranks to which they are commissioned. At the same time, this does not distinguish between temporary and permanent members of the forces. I am not quite sure whether there is anything in the Constitution on this point but this Bill says that the Minister may promote any officer to a higher substantive rank or to a higher acting rank.

The case of the officer promoted to a higher acting rank is fairly simple because the man is only performing functions normally performed by a man of a certain higher rank and he is not commissioned to such rank but, as I say, the Minister may also promote any officer to a higher substantive rank. I am not quite sure what the practice is now. I do not know whether it has been changed, but normally the Minister had not power to promote—it was an Executive act. Under the provisions of this section, the Minister—there are actually two Ministers at the moment—can take a second lieutenant and give him the rank of major-general. Normally, both for the protection of the officers in the Army so that they would have a sense of security, and as a protection against injustice, the whole Executive Council was invoked. If an officer has to be reduced or relieved of his commission it can only be done for cause shown. Now you are going to clothe the Minister of this Department—it does not even say that it must be done in consultation with the Minister for Finance although it would involve financial liabilities—with full power and put it entirely within his jurisdiction to give any substantive rank he likes or thinks desirable. That does seem to be a very radical change in the Army Act.

We are passing this Bill from its Second to its Final Stage without bothering about its implications but this is a very radical change, as far as I can interpret it, in the whole administration of the Army. The Minister, as far as I can see, has offered no adequate explanation as to why this should be done. So far, the commissioned ranks in the Army have been jealously watched, not merely by the Minister but by the whole authority of the State. They receive their commissions from the President. Article 13 of the Constitution says: "The exercise of the supreme command of the Defence Forces shall be regulated by law" and "All commissioned officers of the Defence Forces shall hold their commissions from the President." Now the President acts upon the advice of the Executive Council but here this is taking power as far as I can read it to give the Minister the right to promote an officer on his own. The Minister—I am speaking impersonally— rather likes the look of an officer and decides to promote him. He does not receive the rank, of course, until he has received it from the President. The President acts by virtue of powers specifically bestowed on him or he acts on advice given by the Executive Council—not given by the Minister for Defence. This does seem to me to represent a very radical change.

We are given no guidance in the matter, and the Minister does not advert to it at all. I may have misinterpreted the section, but it seems that henceforward the Minister may promote any officer to a higher substantive rank. Formerly the officer could not have higher substantive rank without being commissioned by the President.

I had assumed that Senators had a certain amount of knowledge of these Acts; therefore I did not go into them in very great detail. Section 11 (A) of the Act of 1924 states in very clear and specific language:

"The Minister may from time to time promote officers and soldiers of the Forces in accordance with regulations to be made by him."

There is absolutely no change whatever.

That was under the 1924 Act?

When was the present Constitution passed?

We are acting in accordance with that very Act now.

Surely the Minister can see that things which might be legal under the Constitution in force at the time the 1924 Act was passed, may be quite illegal to-day under the Constitution in its present form? I read one passage which says that the exercise of the supreme command of the Defence Forces shall be regulated by law and that all commissioned officers of the Defence Forces shall hold their commissions from the President. That was not the case then. The President, of course, is only another name for the Governor-General. I cannot remember offhand exactly what was in the Constitution before it was amended but here you are passing this Bill in 1942 subject to the Constitution that was passed about 1938. There is no good telling me what is in the 1924 Act unless I can be shown that the acts permitted under the 1924 Act are also provided for in the particular form of the Constitution as it now stands.

As I said, there is absolutely no change. The position is as it always has been. The question of reversion is somewhat different. We have not had provision in legislation for reverting officers. If a regular officer is not suitable, he goes out.

On cause shown?

Yes. Here we have large numbers of officers who, in the course of time, receive acting promotion from lieutenant to captain, from captain to commandant, and perhaps from commandant to major. The time will come when these men will have to be reverted to the next rank, or to a rank lower, or may have to go out altogether. We are giving ourselves power to do that. The form in which a man is promoted to the rank of officer is one which is very carefully considered. There is a Council of Defence which examines the promotions, not put up by the Minister or by the Chief of Staff, but by the commanding officers of the various units. These promotions are examined very carefully. The general headquarters staff, when they submit them to the Council of Defence, presided over by me, get down to examine very carefully the qualifications of the various people put forward.

If the Minister does not mind my saying so, I think that is irrelevant.

What I am trying to tell the Senator is the procedure. I did not like to interrupt the Senator because I wanted him to make his case so that I could hear it and reply to it. When all this has been done, it goes one step further. It goes to the Executive Council for its approval, and, when that approval has been secured, it goes to the President for his signature. The President signs the commission which is eventually handed over to the officer. There is nothing sinister in this. It simply gives us a power which we must have to revert officers when the time comes for reverting them.

The Minister is stressing revert officers. I am dealing with this sub-section, which says that the Minister may promote any officer to a higher substantive rank. The Minister tells me that the Defence Council meets and receives recommendations from the commanding officers, that it considers them and refers them to the Executive Council, which advises the President. That is all right, but here we are changing the law as it stands, by setting out that the Minister may promote. If the Minister may promote, he is endowed by law with a function which does not require him to refer the matter to the Executive Council at all. So far as I can judge, the Minister seemed to be arguing my point. The Minister refers it to the Executive Council, which can then advise the President. That is strictly in accord with Article 13, sub-section (5), of the Constitution. If you pass a law now saying that the Minister may give substantive rank, that power is vested totally in him, and if he says: "I do not feel like consulting the Executive Council" or "I do not think they will agree to this promotion", he has this law to back him up and legally to empower him to forgo that which presumably will be a completely voluntary and gratuitous act on his part under the provisions of this Section 4.

Is it the Senator's point that this Bill overrides the constitutional position of the President in relation to sanctioning?

We should not have a Committee Stage debate on the Final Stage.

All commissioned officers shall hold their commissions from the President, and the Minister may now explain—he has not done it so far—whether when a man receives his commission as a second lieutenant, that is the total act of commissioning him.

That is so.

Therefore, I presume that an officer who leaves the Army as a lieutenant-general is still commissioned only as a second lieutenant?

I suppose that is the position, though I should not like to say definitely that it is. He receives his original commission from the President. The additional promotions then come through the Minister.

What I am trying to get at is the machinery and the form gone through. A man is a cadet or a private, and is to be granted a commission. That is given to him by the President and it is understood that the Minister's advisers and so on may advise on the matter. He is then a commissioned officer and from that point his commission remains only the commission of a second lieutenant, superadded from time to time, but the substantive commission is never anything but that of a second lieutenant.

I should not like to say that when the promotion of a regular officer is in the substantive form. It is only the acting promotions we are worried about. During the emergency, practically all promotions are to acting ranks, but in ordinary peace times promotions are substantive promotions.

Could we be told what stage of the Bill we are now discussing?

May somebody who was never a Minister for Defence speak in this debate? I thought this was a very simple Bill, but, having heard the Minister and the ex-Minister for Defence on Section 4, I am becoming less and less clear every minute. The only thing I noted with great satisfaction was the Minister's reliance on the Act of 1924 and apparently on the Constitution of 1924. He even uses the terminology of the old Constitution and of the Act of 1924 when he speaks about the Minister and the Executive Council. It does, however, seem to be clear that the commission, the substantive rank, must be given at the instance finally of the Government and not of the Minister alone, that the commission proceeds from the President, if we take this Article of the Constitution which says:—

"All commissioned officers of the Defence Forces shall hold their commissions from the President."

It does appear that this section does give a power to the Minister alone which was previously vested in the Executive Council, or the Government, which is a group. I think, although, like Senator Foran, I am not very clear, that we are on the Fourth Stage of the Bill.

We are on the Fifth Stage.

There is no real difference of opinion, and no desire to hold up the Bill, so that we might perhaps postpone the Fifth Stage until this day week, and in the interval everybody might become clearer about it, so that we could pass it in two or three minutes then.

I am quite satisfied with that arrangement, if the House desire it.

It would not make any difference to the Minister's scheme?

No. So long as I have the Bill by the 31st, I shall be quite satisfied.

I would agree to let the Bill go through now if the Minister could have told me that the only commission a man can have must come from the President. A variation in the degree of commission can be granted by the Minister, but no man in the Army at any time has any commission other than that given by the President, and, therefore, the only commission any officer has is that of second lieutenant.

Might I raise a question concerning the position of employers to whom an employee might return from the Army with impaired health? Would it be obligatory on the employer to take such a man back, and is there a sick fund out of which provision might be made for him? What provision would be made for such a case?

If we have to release a man because he has developed some disease or other, I do not see how we could compel an employer to take him back.

The question has arisen in a certain case with which I am acquainted, and it is a matter of practical importance.

I do not think we could enforce anything in such a case. I do not think there should be any great difficulty in putting this Bill through, as I am quite prepared to look into the matters raised by the Senator, but, if he desires to have it postponed, I am satisfied. There is very little point in it.

I would say there is no point if the Minister tells me that no one has any commission except that of a second lieutenant.

I have told the Senator that the commission comes from the President and that, of course, has to be that of a second lieutenant. That is usually the first rank any officer holds. The difference between the Senator and myself is that the ranks after that are still substantive ranks.

I know, but are they different commissions? Has the man who is a colonel now been commissioned as a colonel?

That is merely promotion growth from the junior rank.

I think that is the position, but the Minister has not said it with any great firmness. I have no objection to the Minister getting the Final Stage of this Bill to-day.

It would be a pity, I think, to hold up its Final Stage. The Senator's point, I think, would be right once a man had a commission, whether it be that of a second lieutenant, captain or a colonel because he may then be promoted.

Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be returned to the Dáil.
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