Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Feb 1943

Vol. 27 No. 15

Exported Live Stock (Insurance) Bill, 1942—Committee and Subsequent Stages.

Sections 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 5.

Liam O Buachalla

I move amendment No. 1:—

To delete sub-section (1) and to substitute therefor the following four sub-sections:—

(1) Where a committee of assessors who investigated a claim for compensation under Section 18 of the Principal Act has disallowed, at any time before the appointed day, the claim in whole or in part, then if, but only if, the claimant, within 14 days after the appointed day, requests the board in writing to refer his claim to the standing referee and deposits with the board the appropriate appeal fee, the board shall refer the claim to the standing referee.

(2) Whenever a committee of assessors investigating a claim for compensation under Section 18 of the Principal Act or Section 14 (which relates to compensation in respect of lost or damaged live stock exported via Northern Ireland) of this Act disallows, on or after the appointed day, the claim in whole or in part, the following provisions shall have effect:—

(a) the board shall serve on the claimant notice in writing of the determination of the said committee of assessors,

(b) if, but only if, the claimant, within fourteen days after such service, requests the board in writing to refer his claim to the standing referee and deposits with the board the appropriate appeal fee, the board shall refer the claim to the standing referee.

(3) Where the board refer under this section a claim for compensation to the standing referee, the following provisions shall have effect—

(a) the standing referee shall rehear the claim and his determination (both as to the right to the compensation and the amount (if any) thereof) on such rehearing shall be final and conclusive;

(b) if, on such rehearing, the standing referee reverses the decision of the committee of assessors who investigated the claim, the board shall refund to the claimant the appropriate appeal fee, but otherwise shall retain it and pay it into the Exported Live Stock (Insurance) Fund.

(4) In this section the expression "the appropriate appeal fee," in relation to the reference, under this section, to a claim for compensation to the standing referee, means a sum equal to ten pounds or five per cent. of the appointed minimum value of each animal to which the claim relates, whichever is the greater.

Mr. Goulding

I move the amendment to amendment No. 1:—

In sub-section (4) of amendment No. 1, immediately after the word "means", to insert the words:—"in case the claim relates to animals exported before the appointed day a sum equal to ten pounds or five per cent. of the declared value, within the meaning of the Principal Act, of each animal to which the claim relates, whichever is the greater, or in any other case.".

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan)

This amendment covers the point raised by Senators on the Second Stage. The effect of it is to make it possible to have claims already settled referred retrospectively to the referee who is being appointed under this Bill to deal with appeals. I do not think that there is very much necessity to explain the amendment or to argue its merits. On the Second Stage, I said that if the proposal were practicable I would be glad to bring in such an amendment. The effect will be that any claim already disposed of since the board was set up can, under the conditions laid down here, be referred to the referee. Senators will see, of course, that no vexatious claims will be submitted because a fairly substantial deposit must be lodged before a claim will be submitted for re-examination or appeal. The amendment, of course, embodies the provisions already in the Bill dealing with future appeals.

Mr. Counihan

The national executive, like most other bodies, object to retrospective legislation but, if the Minister takes responsibility for the amendment, I am instructed to raise no objection. The insurance board have asked me to say that they welcome the proposal, but the national executive have decided objections to it. The board believe that, if they erred at all in their awards, it was because they were too generous in the amounts they awarded. Ninety-five per cent. of the exporters are satisfied that their claims have been fairly well and justly met and the dissatisfied 5 per cent., who are now kicking up a row and clamouring for this retrospective legislation, are the people who got the greatest concessions from the board and the greatest consideration for their claims. They are people who are principally engaged in the export of springers and milch cows and these people had their insurance premiums at the flat rate which every other class of stock had to pay—a flat rate at the present time of 10/- per cent. Previously, under every private insurance company, that class of stock had to pay a premium one and a half times the amount payable on ordinary stock going from port to port or store cattle going up the country. I think it is a great tribute to the board and it shows that, if anything, they were too generous, that only 5 per cent. of the whole cattle trade object to the awards which they made. The Minister and the House, I am sure, will agree that if a board of archangels were set up, not only for the cattle trade but for anyone that might have claims, 100 per cent. of the claimants would not be satisfied with the amount of compensation awarded by the assessors. I think it is a great tribute to the board that only 5 per cent. of the claims were disputed and that only 5 per cent. of all those who are insuring are dissatisfied with the awards. The Minister is taking responsibility for this retrospective legislation. The board welcome it and I, on behalf of the national executive, will offer no opposition to it.

Amendment No. 1, as amended, agreed to.

Dr. Ryan

Amendments Nos. 2 and 5 are dealt with by that amendment.

Amendment No. 2 not moved.

Mr. Counihan

I move amendment No. 3:—

In sub-section (2), after the word "appoint" in line 34, page 2, to insert the words "after consultation with the national executive".

This amendment prescribes something with which, I am sure, the Minister will agree, but, to put the question beyond doubt and to regularise the matter, I put down the amendment. The national executive are anxious that the referee who will be appointed will be a man of sound common sense, that he will have an intimate knowledge of the cattle trade, but, at the same time, that he should not be engaged in the export of live stock, or have very many friends or relations engaged in the export of live stock. To ensure that the referee will have these qualifications and fulfil these requirements, I think the Minister should consult the national executive. Of course, the responsibility of the appointment will still be with the Minister, and all I ask for in the amendment is that the national executive will be consulted. I might say the national executive and the board are two distinct bodies.

Dr. Ryan

I agree to the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Goulding

I move amendment No. 4, on behalf of Senator Quirke:—

In sub-section (2), page 3, line 36, to delete the following words and figures:—"sub-section (1) of".

Dr. Ryan

This is consequential on amendment No. 1.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 5 not moved.

Mr. Goulding

I move amendment No. 6, standing in the name of Senator Quirke:—

To delete sub-section (3) and substitute the following sub-section:—

(6) Sub-section (4) of Section 21 of the Principal Act is hereby repealed.

Dr. Ryan

This, to a certain extent, is a consequential amendment also, because, as the original Act stands, the award of the assessor is final. Now, with the appointment of a referee, it is no longer final and, in that respect, it is a consequential amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 5, as amended, agreed to.

NEW SECTION.

Mr. Goulding

I move amendment No. 7, standing in the name of Senator Quirke:—

Before Section 6 to insert a new section as follows:— (1) The board shall as from the passing of this Act consist of nine members, and the national executive shall, as soon as may be after the said passing, appoint a person to be a member of the board.

(2) Each of the persons, who are members of the board immediately after the appointment mentioned in sub-section (1) of this section, shall, unless he sooner dies, resigns or becomes disqualified, hold office until the day in the year 1945 on which the national executive appoint, in pursuance of sub-section (3) of this section, nine members of the board.

(3) The national executive shall, on a day in the year 1945, appoint nine members of the board and of the members so appointed—

(a) each of the three (to be selected by the national executive at the time of appointment) shall, unless he sooner dies, resigns or becomes disqualified, hold office until the day in the year 1946 on which the national executive appoint, in pursuance of sub-section (4) of this section, three members of the board.

(b) each of three (to be selected by the national executive at the time of appointment) shall, unless he sooner dies, resigns or becomes disqualified, hold office until the day in the year 1947 on which the national executive appoint, in pursuance of sub-section (4) of this section, three members of the board;

(c) each of three (to be selected by the national executive at the time of appointment) shall, unless he sooner dies, resigns or becomes disqualified, hold office until the day in the year 1948 on which the national executive appoint, in pursuance of sub-section (4) of this section, three members of the board.

(4) The national executive shall, on a day in the year 1946 and in each subsequent year, appoint three members of the board, and each member so appointed in any such year shall, unless he sooner dies, resigns or becomes disqualified, hold office until the day, in the third year after the year of his appointment, on which the national executive appoint, in pursuance of this sub-section, three members of the board.

(5) The term of office of each member of the board appointed under this section shall commence on the day next following the date of his appointment.

(6) Whenever a member of the board dies, resigns, or becomes disqualified, the national executive shall, as soon as conveniently may be, appoint another person to be a member of the board, and the person so appointed shall hold office for the period for which the member so dying, resigning or becoming disqualified would have held office if he had not died, resigned or become disqualified.

(7) Sub-section (1) of Section 4, and sub-sections (1), (3), (4) and (5) of Section 5 of the Principal Act are hereby repealed.

Dr. Ryan

This is to cover a point that was raised by Senator Counihan and other Senators with regard to the rotation of the board. Senator Counihan pointed out, on the Second Stage, that, as the original Act stands, it is rather dangerous that the whole board should go out after five years, and, possibly, a completely new board be elected. It is extremely difficult to get exactly what Senator Counihan wanted. As a matter of fact, under this amendment, the whole board will go out after five years, i.e., in 1945, but from that time forward, there will be a rotation of retirals and elections. Three will go out each year, and will be replaced by three, so that any three members who are elected at a certain time will be there for three years, and it will not be possible, after that period, to have a complete clearance of the board.

Mr. Counihan

The only difference between this amendment and the amendment in my name is that my amendment provides for continuity of the board. Under the Government amendment the whole board goes out in 1945, and after that, there will be continuity. I am sorry that the Minister could not see his way to accept the amendment in my name, because the board has given complete satisfaction, and it is a pity to put the whole board out in 1945, or involve some of them in the risk of being knocked out. But, as the Minister has said that it is difficult to frame an amendment to meet that case —I thought I had done so—I will withdraw my amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Cathaoirleach

The adoption of amendment No. 7 will involve the deletion of Section 6 of the Bill. Amendments Nos. 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 will not, I take it, in the circumstances explained, be moved.

Amendments Nos. 8 to 12, inclusive, not moved.

Section 6 deleted.

Section 7 agreed to.

SECTION 8.

Mr. Goulding

I move amendment No. 13, standing in the name of Senator Quirke:—

In page 4, line 5, to insert after the word "amended" the words "with effect as on and from the appointed day, as defined by Section 3 of this Act."

Dr. Ryan

There is rather a peculiar situation in that the appointed day will have to be determined before certain provisions of the amending Act come into operation and this is to ensure that, even though the appointed day may be declared, fixing maximum values, and so on, they will not come into operation before the appointed day for the remaining part of the Bill. It is really only a drafting amendment to see that there is no overlapping.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 8, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 9.

Mr. Goulding

I move amendment No. 14, standing in the name of Senator Quirke:—

To insert after sub-section (1), the following sub-section—

(2) The amendment effected by sub-section (1) of this section shall only apply in respect of an animal exported on or after the appointed day, as defined by Section 3 of this Act.

Dr. Ryan

This is the same type of amendment. The first dealt with the appointed values and this is a complementary amendment, as it were, dealing with the compensation that may be paid on the old basis until the whole Bill comes into operation.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 9, as amended, agreed to.

Section 10 agreed to.

SECTION 11.

Mr. Goulding

I move amendment No. 15, standing in the name of Senator Quirke:—

To delete sub-section (2) and substitute therefor the following sub-section:—

(2) In this Part of this Act— the expression "British landing place" has the same meaning as in the Detained Animals (Compensation) Act, 1932 (No. 9 of 1932); the expression "levy stamps" has the same meaning as in the Principal Act.

Dr. Ryan

This is merely a definition.

Section 11, as amended, agreed to.

Section 12 to 16, inclusive, agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Agreed, that the remaining stages of the Bill be taken now.

Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.

Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—put and agreed to.

Ordered: That the Bill be returned to the Dáil with amendments.