Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Feb 1943

Vol. 27 No. 15

Transfer of Passenger Traffic to Railway—Motion.

Mr. Counihan

I move:

That the Seanad is of opinion that during the present emergency, and with a view to the better utilisation of available transport facilities, steps should be taken, whether by legislation or otherwise, to transfer to the railway passenger traffic between Dundalk and stations intermediate and Dublin; and that the Seanad requests the Minister for Industry and Commerce to take the necessary steps to this end.

I should like to say how grateful I am to Senators Baxter, O'Dwyer, and Sir John Keane for allowing my motion to take precedence of theirs, and to the Minister in accommodating me by his attendance at some inconvenience. Many Senators might not be very interested in this matter, or think that it is very important, but I wish to put it to the House that it is a matter of vital importance to a great number of people living in the rural parts of this area. I have discussed the proposal with the Minister and with his officials, and I believe that they all feel that something should be done to regulate the traffic in that particular district, but they feel that the framing of an Order to suit one particular part of the country is a difficult business. As far as I can judge, that is their only objection, but, at all events, the thing has not been done, although I have been pounding at the Minister, for about six months, to have it done. This is a train service which would compare very favourably with any district in Eire, even in pre-war days. I think that the train service there is quite as good now as it was in the pre-emergency days.

Professor Johnston

I think the Senator is wrong there.

Mr. Counihan

At any rate, it is nearly as good. I think that most of the Senators here know that the towns in the area between Dublin and Dundalk are practically all on the coastline and that there is a big hinterland to the west of them. The people living in the rural parts of the area adjacent to these towns, previous to the emergency, were supplied from these towns, with all the goods they required, by vans. That is out of the question now, and if they have not a pony and trap or some other means of transport, these people have to walk. My main point is that the farmers' wives, the agricultural labourers' wives—every class of person living in the rural part of that district—have no other means of getting their provisions except from these adjacent towns, and I feel that they should be able to avail of the accommodation on the buses and that it should not be taken up by people travelling to Dublin from these towns.

That is my main reason for asking the Minister to make these people avail of alternative means of transport and leave the bus accommodation to the people who live a considerable distance from the railways. On the second day of the meeting of the Seanad last week, I was coming to Dublin—I had a disc for bringing my car to town, but the Minister's Department would not supply me with sufficient petrol for the two days—having sufficient petrol to bring me to a point at which I could meet the buses. While I waited there, two buses came along and passed me by. They were full up and could take no more passengers. There were a farmer's wife and two agricultural labourers' wives standing at the same point and—I suppose I broke the law— I brought them in my car to Swords. If I had not done so, these people, who had walked three miles to get the bus would have had to walk back the three miles and do without their provisions, or walk four miles into Swords to get them. I think that is a position which should be remedied.

There is a very good train service between Drogheda and Dundalk. There are six trains a day from Dundalk, and ten trains a day from Drogheda, to Dublin, and the same number for the return journey. I got a time table from the Great Northern Railway Company showing that trains leave Dundalk for Dublin at 8.10 a.m., 10.43, 12.35 p.m., 2.15, 2.45 and 7.45. The 10.43 a.m., 2.15 p.m. and 7.45 p.m. are express trains, stopping only at Drogheda. The other are local trains which stop at a number of intermediate stations, such as Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush and Lusk. Trains leave Drogheda for Dublin at 7.40, 8.5, 8.55 and 11.16 a.m., 1.20, 2.48, 3.30, 5.31, 8.17 and 8.35 p.m. The 11.16 a.m. and 8.17 p.m. trains are express trains which do not stop at intermediate stations, while the others are local trains, stopping at intermediate stations. In addition, there is a bus service to Rush and Lusk station for people who are travelling by train to Dublin, and I think it is damnable selfishness on the part of people who have the advantage of that train service to crowd out the buses, leaving the agricultural community to sit on the side of the road.

About a fortnight ago, 22 people presented themselves before 9 o'clock in Drogheda for accommodation on the 9 o'clock bus. The bus inspector said: "I will not allow anybody on the bus between Drogheda and Dublin to-day. You must all go by train." I understand that some of these people went by train, but four of the important people went to a garage and hired a taxi to Dublin. They did their business in Dublin and came back that evening in the taxi. They then sent the bill to the Great Northern Railway Company, and the company paid the bill, because their solicitor advised them that they had no authority to prevent them travelling in the bus when there was accommodation in the bus at the particular place at which they wished to get on.

I have discussed this matter with the railway company, and they are agreeable to my proposal. All I am asking the Minister to do is to make this Order giving the railway company authority to divert traffic from the buses to the railway, and to use their own discretion as to what people shall use the buses. All I want is: That the people travelling from Dundalk to Drogheda, and other towns to Dublin should use the trains, and let the people from the country, who meet the buses on the roads, get accommodation in these buses when they want to go into these towns or to Dublin. Another point is that a number of school children in that area go to school in Drogheda, Dundalk, Balbriggan, and Swords by bus. I have seen these children in a good many cases compelled to walk because the bus could not take them up. I ask the House to request the Minister to make this Order. It is, I think, one of the most reasonable requests made in this House for a long time.

Mr. McGee

I second the motion. Senator Counihan has put his case very thoroughly, as he always does, and, as he says himself, it is a reasonable request, to which it is difficult to find an answer. I am perfectly certain that when the Minister thinks over it he will not find it beyond his power to provide a solution which will meet the needs of the area, if not to-night, at no distant date. Senator Counihan enumerated the trains serving that area. He told us the trains from Dundalk, and then gave us the trains from Drogheda. It should be mentioned, however, that, as between Dundalk and Drogheda, it is the same train in six cases. The train from Dundalk passes through Drogheda, so that we have not got the multiplicity of trains which he indicated. Instead of the ten and six trains he mentioned, there are in reality ten trains, but the service is quite reasonable. The buses are excellent, and cater for a very big area. The bus which runs from Dundalk through the Monaghan end of County Louth has always to be duplicated on market and fair days. I suppose the buses through the other parts of the county could be reduced somewhat, if the railway at Ardee were functioning in respect of passengers, but otherwise the Minister and his officials should have no difficulty in providing accommodation on the trains sufficient for the two towns, thus leaving the buses to the people in the thickly populated rural parts.

Professor Johnston

This motion interests me, as I have a certain amount of local knowledge of the problem. The train service between Dundalk, Drogheda and Dublin is remarkably good, although not quite as good as it used to be. I use it practically every day, and, while it is true that the trains are considerably more crowded than they were some time ago, it is also true to say that there is room for more people, especially in local trains. The express trains are often packed to capacity, but the local trains could easily accommodate a substantially larger number of passengers. That being so, the problem is how best to economise road and rail transport, as a whole, not in the sense of cutting down the already limited facilities, but in the sense of so arranging matters that maximum convenience will be obtained for the community from the facilities that exist. The whole matter turns on the geography of the district. Probably some Senators are familiar with the position, but others may not be. The essence of that geography is that you have between Dundalk and Dublin alternative means of transport —a railway system and a road system— and, at certain points, these transport lines converge. They converge at Dundalk, at Dunleer, at Drogheda, at Balbriggan, but do not converge again until they reach Dublin. Where they bulge out from one another, the area of the bulge is sometimes three, four, or five miles, so that the position that exists is, that people living in Dundalk, Drogheda, Balbriggan or Duleek have the alternative of using either the rail or the road services, without any inconvenience worth talking about. Consequently, all we ask these people to do is that they should use the railway or, if they do not choose to use the railway—as, apparently, they do not choose to do in sufficient numbers— that they should be compelled in the public interest to use the railway, so as to leave more room on the road system for country people living miles away from the railway, and who have no other means of getting to the towns. That is the case in a nutshell. I think this is an entirely reasonable request, and I commend it to the common sense of the House, and to the Minister for suitable use of his great powers.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I think everybody will agree that it is desirable that people who can conveniently use the train service should do so. Those people who are resident in towns on the Great Northern system, from which convenient train services operate, are to be exhorted to use the train services in preference to bus services. There will be no two views about that. But Senator Counihan suggests that we should make an Order which will compel people in these towns to travel by rail instead of by bus. I do not think that an Order of that kind is either practicable or desirable. I do not know if Senator Counihan has given any deep consideration to its practicability. At one time, officials of the Great Northern Railway proposed to make such an Order but, when the matter was discussed with them, they agreed that it was impracticable. Under the existing law drivers of buses are under statutory obligation to stop and to take up intending passengers when signalled to do so at a lawful stopping place, unless the buses are already full. The only way by which an Order of the kind suggested by Senator Counihan could be brought into effect would be by relieving the drivers of omnibuses of the obligation, at their own discretion, to take passengers on until the full capacity had been reached. I think it is, from many points of view, undesirable that that discretion should be given omnibus drivers. It is undesirable from the point of view of the public, and equally undesirable from the point of view of the omnibus drivers. It would place very great responsibility upon individual employees, and put them in an almost intolerable position vis-a-vis the public. The alternative to leaving the matter to rest with the discretion of an individual employee, would have to take the form of an Order setting forth the circumstances under which people would be prohibited from using omnibus services, including all the exceptions that would have to be made thereto in relation to various circumstances, and the restrictions which would have to be placed upon the powers given to the officials of the company to refuse members of the public the right to get on the company's buses.

No matter from what angle you examine the suggestion, it appears more and more impracticable. Leaving aside the question of its practicability, let us examine its desirability. I think it is true to say that any such Order would inconvenience a very much larger number of people than it would convenience. No doubt, there are in many parts of the country, not merely on this route but on other bus and railway routes, people who are not conveniently situated from the point of view of transport, and if we were to attempt to make such an order for the Dublin-Dundalk route, we would have many requests for similar orders and similar regulations to affect other routes. These orders would have to be subject to variations from time to time, as the time tables or routes of omnibuses or trains were altered. For example, nobody would contend, from the fact that a train runs at midday from some station in the vicinity of Dublin that that would justify the prohibiting of persons who for a considerable time past were accustomed to travel to Dublin on morning buses to pursue their employment. Even in the particular case to which Senator Counihan made reference, which occurred in Dundalk last Christmas——

Mr. Counihan

A fortnight ago in Drogheda.

Mr. Lemass

I am referring to an occasion on which a number of people were refused admission to a Great Northern bus on that route by an inspector of that company in excess of his authority. That occurred in the week prior to Christmas and at the height of the Christmas peak traffic. While it is true that there was a train leaving Drogheda for Dublin, as well as a bus, the train was several hours later than the bus, and one can easily imagine circumstances in which it would be a matter of grave inconvenience to people travelling for business purposes to have to wait several hours until suitable transport was available. I do not want the House to receive the impression from what Senator Counihan said, that the buses are always full when they reach Blake's cross-roads, where Senator Counihan gets on the bus. When he first made representations to the Department, I made arrangements to have an examination made of the traffic on that route and detailed statistics, prepared in respect of a period of two weeks in October last, will help us to judge the desirability or the necessity for an order of the kind that the Senator suggests. An examination of these statistics during the period of two weeks shows that the number of people accommodated on buses travelling from Dundalk to Dublin via Drogheda and Skerries was approximately 9,000.

One-third of that accommodation was utilised by passengers to Dublin who boarded these buses at Dundalk, Castlebellingham, Dunleer, Drogheda, Balbriggan, Skerries and Rush, towns from which there are also rail services. During the two weeks under investigation only 18 buses out of 192 were filled to capacity before reaching Swords. From Swords there is a very good bus service operated by the Dublin United Transport Company. Intending passengers from any point on the route could have found accommodation upon the buses of the G.N.R. Company in all except 18 cases. Out of 192 buses, only 18 were full on reaching Swords. Had the travellers from these towns which I have mentioned and from which there are also rail services been prevented from travelling by bus, approximately 3,000 people would have been deprived of their accommodation in that two weeks' period. As the average number of passengers accommodated in each bus was 25 and as only 18 buses were filled to capacity before reaching Swords, the total number of persons who might have been convenienced by such a regulation would have been 450; that is to say, 3,000 persons would have been deprived of the opportunity of travelling by the bus service for the purpose of benefiting some unknown number which could not, and would not, have exceeded 450.

Further examination of the position discloses the fact that over one-half of the total number of passengers who originated at the station towns and were accommodated on the 18 full buses referred to were passengers from Balbriggan, Skerries and Rush during mid-morning hours. The town of Skerries is one and one-eighth miles, and the town of Rush is three miles from the railway station, and there is no train service during mid-morning hours. I think it is also a wrong assumption to make that at all periods of the year there is ample accommodation on the trains on the G.N.R. line. I had occasion during last summer to travel daily to and from a station on that line to Dublin and on no single occasion was the train on which I travelled anything but crowded to capacity; in fact, crowded in excess of its capacity, as there were people standing in every compartment.

Mr. Counihan

Did the Minister ever travel on the G.S.R. during the summer?

Mr. Lemass

The point I am making is that if there is that situation in connection with the train service we must not speak of making regulations which will put in any period of a fortnight 3,000 additional passengers on the train service and off the 'bus service.

Professor Johnston

The express trains are always crowded, but the local trains are not crowded.

Mr. Lemass

The trains in which I travelled were local trains. They were trains which came in the morning bringing those travelling to Dublin for business purposes and returning in the evening. They were probably the most crowded trains of the daily service. The statistics I have given suggest that the problem is not quite as acute as is suggested. Apparently a substantial number of buses, in fact the great majority of the buses on the route which reach Swords are not completely full. There are and have been always some buses reaching that stage full and incapable of accommodating additional passengers. While I agree that the people in these station towns should be encouraged to travel by train, I do not think we can compel them to do so. The problem of devising an effective means of compelling them to do so is almost insoluble, unless we are prepared to take what I consider is the considerable risk of giving absolute discretion to the bus conductors as to who will or will not be allowed to travel.

Professor Johnston

Will the Minister consider allowing the company to charge a higher fare than the rail fare on the buses so as to encourage people to use the railway from Drogheda or Dundalk to Dublin, without increasing the fares from the intermediate stages? That would have the effect of encouraging the people to go by rail rather than by road.

Mr. Lemass

There would be a statutory difficulty in doing that, but no doubt the statutory difficulty could be temporarily overcome by Order. That possibility could be examined. We have, however, asked the company to undertake a publicity campaign for the purpose of encouraging people to travel by train from these stations rather than by bus. They have undertaken such a campaign. I think we can also arrange to have the matter brought by other means to the attention of the public, and, from my experience, I think the public will respond to an urging of that kind which is obviously designed to facilitate others less favourably circumstanced than they are themselves. In fact, I should say that the uncertainty of procuring accommodation on buses on the route has created a situation in which the majority of the people travelling from these towns prefer to go by train. Certainly they prefer to return from Dublin by train because of the greater certainly of getting accommodation on the train than on the bus.

I have considerable sympathy with Senator Counihan's position and with the aim he has in this motion, but I regret I could not accept it. I could not agree that it would be practicable to proceed on the lines indicated by him. I think it is desirable that a situation should be brought about by propaganda and publicity in which people from these towns which are served both by bus and rail service would be encouraged to travel by rail rather than by bus, and thus leave the bus accommodation available for those who have not got the alternative of rail travel. Beyond that I would not be prepared to go. It may be possible to do something on the lines suggested by Senator Johnston in the matter of the readjustment of fares. There are certain objections to dealing with a problem of this kind by charging more for the facilities which people desire. The solution of the temporary emergency problems in that manner could be represented as imposing restrictions upon those who could not afford to pay higher fares while not discouraging the practice by those who could. I think, therefore, that, while it might be possible to do something in that way, there are all sorts of arguments against it. What the legal difficulties of adopting the Senator's suggestion are I could not say offhand. I do not think I have anything more to say. I agree that we should try to encourage people to travel by train rather than by bus, but I do not think it is practicable to use compulsory powers for that end.

Mr. Foran

Has any representation been made to the Great Northern Railway Company in reference to this matter?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Foran

With a view to getting more buses?

Mr. Lemass

I think the representations that are likely to be made to the Great Northern Railway Company in future will be of a very different kind.

Professor Johnston

They might be the other way round.

Mr. Lemass

Yes, the other way round.

Mr. Foran

Surely not in the case of the Great Northern Railway, where they have plenty of everything?

Mr. Lemass

I am afraid these buses are fuelled and maintained from our sources.

Mr. Foran

That is a very different thing.

Mr. Counihan

I can see the Minister's difficulty, but I do not think the matter is as difficult as he made it out to be. Of course, his officials, like all civil servants, are always anxious to adopt the line of least resistance and they feel that the making of this Order would not be the easiest way to go about it, that it would be simpler to leave things as they are. I thought I convinced the Minister and the House of the necessity for this Order, particularly when we remember that we are in an emergency and that the Order would operate only during the period of an emergency. The Minister suggested that the trains offer a good deal of accommodation. On the Great Southern Railways, on which I very often travel, the trains are crowded, as there is only one train each day to the South and to the West, and a return train. There may be a goods train at night. Very often, on the Great Southern Railways, I have to travel by the guard's van. That does not happen on the Great Northern Railway. From Drogheda, every day, they have ten trains and three express trains.

I mentioned the case of the 22 people standing in the bus. My information from the Great Northern Railway Company is that this happened in Drogheda, that 22 people presented themselves for a 9 o'clock bus. A bus and a train were leaving within five minutes of each other, and the 22 people were insisting on going by the bus until the inspector said he would not allow anyone for Dublin on the bus.

Liam O Buachalla

It does not follow that all these 22 people were from the town.

Mr. Counihan

It does not, but they were at Drogheda and they had a train by which to go to Dublin. The inspector told the people who were waiting at that particular time that he would not allow any of those who were going to Dublin on the bus, that they should go by the train, which was within four or five minutes' walk. That is my information. Four of them took a taxi and the railway company had to pay. That does not show a great deal of consideration by people in the towns for people living in the country. I travel in buses a good deal since the emergency. I often go to fairs, and have been left behind so that I could not do my business. About two months ago, the conductor or driver—I suppose he knew me—stopped and picked me up, when the bus was full. He told me that, in doing so, he was breaking the regulations, that he was more afraid of his own inspectors in regard to overcrowding than he was of the Civic Guards, but that he would take me as far as Swords, where I could get accommodation. On that bus there were 24 women and, I think, 16 children going to the pictures. That is a positive fact. A number of people in the country, like myself, who want to go about to do business, are prevented from doing so by people from the towns who prefer to take the bus, which will pick them up in the centre of whatever town they are in and will leave them in the centre of Dublin. The sort of Order I would request the Minister to make is one giving discretion to the railway company to divert traffic from the buses, in the towns only, and between Dublin and those particular towns. I am not forcing the matter now. The Minister says he is sympathetic. He has always been sympathetic and his officials are quite sympathetic, but I would ask him to promise that, if these conditions prevail, he will make the Order. If he promises me to consider that, I will withdraw the motion.

Mr. Lemass

I explained that I consider there would be practical difficulties of a very serious kind in making an Order of the nature suggested by the Senator. Whatever we can do by publicity and propaganda, or whatever we can get the railway company to do by publicity and propaganda, will be done. I shall consider whether any useful purpose would be served by a revision of fares on buses in respect of travel from those towns at times when convenient rail services are available. I should not like to say that I will make an Order.

Mr. Counihan

I think the threat would be more useful than the raising of the fares.

Mr. Lemass

Having regard to previous experience, I do not know that the threat is very effective.

Mr. Counihan

I would ask the Minister to consider making the Order.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.