Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Mar 1943

Vol. 27 No. 17

Opening Hours of Fairs and Markets—Motion.

Mr. O'Dwyer

I move:—

That the Seanad requests the Government to introduce proposals for legislation with a view to regulating the opening hours of fairs and markets throughout the country.

I assure the House that this motion is of considerable importance to a large section of the community; otherwise, I would not have agreed to take up the time of the House with it. In the first place, I would point out that those cattle fairs are always held at a very early hour in the morning. Of late years, the tendency seems to be to have that early hour more marked. The farmers have a tendency to try to get there before each other, and the buyers follow suit, with the result that it is quite a common thing to find all the cattle at the fairs while it is still dark on a winter's morning, and the best part of the business done before daylight. Those fairs serve a radius of ten or 12 miles. That means that the farmers who wish to attend those fairs have to get up at a very early hour in the morning.

In the dark, they have to collect the cattle in the fields and drive them along the road, often with great difficulty, in order to be in time for the fair. That means a great hardship on the farmers and on their employees, who have to go such long distances, and wait, perhaps cold and hungry in very bad weather, until the fair is over. It also means a certain amount of hardship on the buyers, who have to come long distances to attend those fairs. Indirectly, it also means a hardship on the railway men, who have to attend at the railway before their usual hours, Perhaps the greatest hardship of all is on the cattle. It is an unnecessary cruelty to those cattle to be collected in the fields in the early morning and driven long distances along country roads in the dark. When those cattle arrive at the fairs, which are generally held in towns, they are dazzled by the lights, and rush to and fro.

The whole arrangement means a great deal of hardship on the farmers, on their employees and on the cattle. The hardship associated with the holding of those fairs in the early morning is one of the things which make agricultural life so distasteful to the people of the present day. It is one of the reasons why they are anxious to leave the land and go into the towns. I have been observing that for many years, and endeavouring to get people to change it. I cannot see that there is any real necessity for holding the fairs so early. Auctions of cattle are held all over the country during the day, and seem to work quite satisfactorily.

It is well to deal with the arguments which will be advanced against the motion. First of all, we will be asked: "If it is such a hardship on the farmers and on the buyers, why cannot they arrange by agreement to hold the fairs at a reasonable hour?" Again, it has been said that it would not be possible to hold the fairs at a later hour in the morning, because the buyers would lose the connection to England.

I think the best answer I could give to both of those arguments is to quote the report of the Committee of Inquiry set up in 1925 under the auspices of the Department of Agriculture to inquire into the marketing of live stock. The following interests were represented on it: the shipping companies, the railway companies, the Irish Farmers' Union, Cattle Traders' Associations, Salesmasters' Associations, the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and the Gárda Síochána. The committee held several meetings and the recommendations included hours for the holding of pig fairs.

On this point, the committee recommended on behalf of the pig buyers' and bacon curers' associations that the hour for the sale of pigs at fairs should not be earlier than 8 a.m. I mention pig fairs because the recommendation has been brought into effect. The committee also recommended that the fixing of the hours for the starting of fairs should preferably be dealt with by a central rather than a local authority. The first part of the recommendation, so far as I know, has been brought into force and has resulted in the holding of pig fairs at a later hour in the morning. With regard to cattle and sheep fairs, in view of statements by cattle trade representatives, the committee recommended that the hour of commencement should be 7 a.m. from the 1st of March to the end of September, and 8 a.m. from the 1st of October to the last day of February. Again it was recommended that the matter should be dealt with by a central rather than a local authority. That is the answer to the point that those things should be fixed by agreement. Several agreements have been made, but it would not be practicable to enforce them without the assistance of a central authority. Even action by the local authority has been shown to be insufficient.

This, also, is the answer to the argument that fairs could not be held later on account of the export trade. A recommendation came from the cattle traders' associations themselves to that committee. They were satisfied that in normal times the fairs could be held at a later hour and the question of transport to foreign markets would be easily arranged. Otherwise, the cattle traders' representatives would not have put this view forward. The present system of holding fairs causes great hardship to the people and great cruelty to cattle, and I think reform in that direction is much overdue.

I would suggest to the Minister that there is no question about difficulties of transport, because at the present time practically all arrangements for transport have gone by the board and there are no more fixed hours for foreign markets. Again, there can be no objection to the fixing of fairs at a later hour on the ground of lighting, because later hours would mean a saving in light both to shops and users of motor cars. I suggest to the Minister that he should examine the question of reform with a view to the making of an Order or the introduction of legislation which will have the effect of fixing a reasonable opening hour for winter and summer to obviate the hardships felt at present.

Mr. Colbert

I second the motion. I believe that it opens up a very big question. I have had some experience of attending fairs at long distances from my home—driving cattle during the night for distances of eight and ten and sometimes 15 and 17 miles. It often occurred to me that there would be far less hardship to man and beast if there was proper fair green accommodation in the big centres. My idea is that in the larger centres there should be a fair green situated as close as possible to the railway station with a proper surface so that people will not have to wade through slush and mud to look at the cattle. There should be a better system of pens where each farmer could bring his cattle and the various grades of cattle should be sectioned off in the different parts of the fair green. There could be a system of payment per head or something like that arranged with local authorities and the farmer could make his reservations beforehand. Similarly, if he was not sending cattle he could notify the authorities also. Prior to the fairs, then, the local authority would be able to publish facts, in regard to the number and classes of cattle, which would be useful to buyers.

Holding fairs in the streets of towns throughout the country causes enormous confusion the morning of the fair. Cattle have to be driven here and there and farmers and their workmen have to try to herd them in different corners and places in the town, causing a tremendous lot of hardship which could be avoided. Townspeople may be anxious to keep the fairs on the street, but I think if they understood the matter they would agree that the fair green system would not take away business from them. Farmers have to leave their horses and carts in yards in the town and they have to go to the banks to get paid and I believe that that system would lead to the spending of more money in towns. Anyone with experience of agricultural conditions in the country knows something about the markets and the trying conditions under which farmers have to exhibit their cattle. They have to rush to the fair and stand in it for hours. They have to drive along a most congested thoroughfare to the railway station where there is even more confusion. If the green was situated near the station the farmers could find out conditions there beforehand, and might not move their cattle until everything was in readiness for them. This would produce some kind of system and order.

The question of dealing with the hours of fairs is rather an easy matter. That could be arranged with the transport companies to fit in with the trading time. I do not think it matters very much if a man is living three or four miles away. He has to rise before 6 o'clock in the morning. It matters of course, where a man lives 15 or 17 miles from the town. He has to start at 12 or 1 o'clock in the morning and if fairs were a little later in the winter months, it would mean less hardship. But, I would say that the hardships attendant on sales of cattle in fairs throughout the country are responsible, to some extent at any rate, for the flight from the land.

At a very early age I had the experience of having to attend fairs during the winter months almost every fortnight, and of driving cattle under the worst possible climatic conditions, and having to stand for hours before I would have my cattle sold, rushing them to the railway station and getting them put into wagons, and so on. All this was by no means encouraging to me to continue in the business of agriculture. There is no reason for it. I think we could improve conditions and the lot of the farmers in that respect very much. People may talk about the farmer as being neglectful— some people refer to him as being lazy and not doing his bit—it has been said in this House. If those people had only attended a number of fairs or travelled the roads on the morning of fairs, they would very quickly alter their view of the farmer and the kind of life he has to lead. I ask the Minister to do what he can to see that some system like this would be put into operation.

Mr. Counihan

If I were to consult my own convenience and the convenience of a number of people, I would willingly support the motion. A good deal could be said in favour of the proposal. Everyone knows that farmers and drovers suffer great hardships in coming to fairs early on dark and wet mornings, particularly in the winter months, but this matter cannot be settled quite as easily or as simply as Senator O'Dwyer thinks. A good many considerations have to be taken into account before an Order could be made regulating the time of opening for fairs and markets. Certain customs prevail in other parts of the country, and it is rather difficult to upset them. I agree that if anything could be done to prevent the hardships endured by farmers, drovers, and cattle, it would be an excellent thing for everybody concerned. I would have no objection to it, but I feel that before such an Order is made there should be some inquiry into the whole business. If the Minister would consider setting up a tribunal to inquire into the position, he might help by extending the terms of reference so that an inquiry could be made into the transport and better marketing of live stock.

Mr. Baxter

And to do away with dealers.

Mr. Counihan

He can make any terms of reference he likes. All I am concerned with is to get the best prices possible for the farmers. We have a market in Dublin which is a national concern and, to put it mildly, the Dublin market is a disgrace to the Government. For the past 20 years, I have been agitating to get the Dublin market changed to the North Wall, but I have not succeeded in getting any further with the project, either with the Fianna Fáil Government or their predecessors, the Cumann na nGaedheal Government. Everybody admits that the conditions prevailing in the Dublin market are antiquated, that they are 50 years at least out of date. Many experts estimate that the loss arising from deterioration of stock coming from the Dublin market and sent through the port of Dublin alone is at least £500,000. If we had proper lairage and market facilities in Dublin, £500,000 would be saved to the country. In 1931, the last year before the economic war, we exported from Éire 834,427 cattle, 672,664 sheep, 429,460 pigs and 8,250 horses, asses and other live stock. More than half of these exports passed through the port of Dublin.

I think it is a terrible disgrace to this and the previous Government that nothing has been done to provide proper lairage accommodation at the North Wall when practically the only thing we have to depend upon is the export of live stock. Nothing has been done by either the present Minister or his predecessor to provide proper facilities at the port, through which practically half the exports of live stock from Éire pass. Proper accommodation is needed at all the ports, but particularly at the port of Dublin. Recommendations have been made by several bodies, the Ports and Harbours Tribunal, the cattle trade and by several other important people who understand the position, regarding a transfer of the Dublin market, but it seems that a few people with vested interests in Prussia Street are able to hold up that national concern.

A few people with vested interests and other influences, no matter what Government is in power, are able to prevent any progress in this matter. If the Minister would consider setting up an inquiry, he could arrange for representation to be given to the cattle trade, transport, his own Department, and also to the Dublin town planning authorities. If that were done, we might be able to make some progress, and we could then inquire into the question of regulating the opening hours for fairs. If we were to fix a definite hour for opening fairs without having such an inquiry, it might have a very bad effect on the export of our stock. I do not think any regulations could be made without having such an inquiry, otherwise I would very gladly support the motion.

Mr. O'Donovan

I do not desire to labour the obvious—to everybody here it is obvious that there should be some regulation governing the sale of animals in country towns—but, if I did so, I would not be so far out of order as Senator Counihan was, because he did not discuss the terms of the motion at all. He discussed the cattle market and the advisability of transferring it to the vicinity of the port. That is an old story, and it would be another day's work to discuss it in detail. However, if it were I who said that the Dublin cattle market was out-of-date, Senator Counihan would say that it is the most renowned cattle market in the world. I would be committing a great wrong in saying such a thing, as the Dublin cattle market is world-renowned, and is not antiquated in its equipment or anything else. It is a credit to the country, and a credit to Dublin. If we had anything approaching it in the less important cities and towns, we would have a very satisfactory state of affairs.

Until some system of fair greens or municipal or borough market places is established in each town, I see little hope of governing or controlling the time at which the sale of animals is to begin or end. We should ensure that towns which are important enough and anxious enough to have a market should provide a market place and then we can proceed to regulate —possibly in an elastic manner—the time of opening and closing the sales. I would remind Senators, however, that even in Dublin—where you have such opening hours—sales of animals are conducted, even at the risk of a £50 fine, the evening before the market opens. It is not such an easy thing as. Senator O'Dwyer imagines to impose a specific opening time and to enforce it by a system of penalties. You would not find so many people—even Senators, I fancy—enthusiastic about obeying such regulations. We must have some definite market place or fair green as a preliminary step to controlling the time of opening the market.

I have two other reasons for supporting the motion. I have travelled to fairs and through fairs and, after fairs, through the towns in which they were held. We have not the facilities that are available at the Dublin cattle market, and there cannot be a quick clean-up. The result of holding a fair in the streets is that they are left for days afterwards in a dirty condition, unless there is a good deluge of rain and they are washed by an act of God. That is one of the big arguments against the holding of fairs in the streets. There are funny stories as to the conduct of animals of various sorts in towns where markets are held on the streets, on the footpaths and practically inside the houses. Then there is the question referred to by Senator O'Dwyer, of the cruelty to the animals and to the individuals driving them. Neither man nor animal is treated fairly by the early, unnatural hours at which they have to leave home. Cattle are brought, under unnatural conditions, through the streets, and there is confusion in trying to get them to their place at a street corner, as there is no system of penning to facilitate the quiet standing of the animals. The whole idea of holding fairs in streets is obviously wrong.

The third point I wish to stress is the difficulty of controlling contagious and scheduled diseases under such conditions. I wish to emphasise now, as I have emphasised before, that this country must go forward in the control of those scheduled diseases and eradicate them as far as possible. I do not wish to go into any more detail on that matter at present. On a previous occasion one Senator referred to me as fouling my own nest, and I do not wish to make any further references to that, as I castigated Senator Counihan for referring so disparagingly to the Dublin Cattle Market. We must introduce methods to deal with the contagious diseases of animals, as well as with those diseases which are transmissible to man; and the system of holding fairs indiscriminately in the streets of towns and practically inside the houses cannot go on.

An extraordinary point is that, in many towns, there are fair greens which are ignored and where no fairs are held. They may not be sheltered or covered places, but they are enclosures. Time has caused the disuse of those fair greens. Transport facilities will right themselves in their own time, and we should try to arrange for post-war eventualities now. We should keep these three points in mind—that market places be provided, so as to keep the streets clean on the day after the market as well as on the day before it, so as to obviate cruelty to the animals and to the people attending on them, and so that there may not be such difficulty in controlling the contagious diseases of animals as there is at present.

Mr. Quirke

When I saw this motion on the Order Paper, the first thing that struck me was that it would be very desirable, if it were possible to carry it into effect. Anyone who knows the position in the country and has gone around the fairs must realise the difficulty of putting such ideas into operation. I did not hear Senator Counihan's speech on the motion, but I am sure he will agree with me that most of the fairs, particularly within any reasonable distance of the ports, are regulated by the time of shipping.

A fair within 20 miles of a port generally starts about 8 a.m. If you go another 20 miles on you will find it starts at 7 o'clock or maybe 6 o'clock. If you go another six miles it starts at 5 o'clock. Nobody ever asks the question why it starts at 5 o'clock in one place and 8 o'clock in another. I suppose there are men living who have never asked or never known why Fethard Fair starts at 8 o'clock and Carrick Fair starts at 5 o'clock, although there is only a distance of about 12 miles between them. The reason that the fair has to start so early is to give buyers time to buy cattle and to get them up in time for shipment. Unless we can advance much further than we have advanced, and much further than we can see much prospect of advancing in the near future, as far as transport is concerned in my opinion nothing of a serious nature can be done in connection with the alteration of the system of fairs. These fairs have gone on for 60 or 70 years, or some of them for much longer, and it is going to take much argument and a lot of discussion or else very definite legislation to change from old established customs.

In connection with the holding of fairs on fair days and the advisability of holding fairs on streets that matter has been discussed up and down the country. In a few cases attempts to hold fairs on fair days have been successful but, in many cases, they have failed for the simple reason that you are up against terrible opposition. You are, if you like, up against vested interests. We had better not bring in the question of public houses again, but people in the towns and shopkeepers generally prefer to have cattle marketed in the town. I am not saying that it is the most desirable method, but if you are going to make a change you have to be prepared to face all these arguments. It is being said that it is cruelty to the cattle to have the fairs in the towns but, in my opinion, it is a greater cruelty to the people to try to hold fairs on fair greens in the dark. That is another argument in favour of the street. It is not an argument which I am putting forward, but it is an argument which would be put forward if such action as has been suggested by certain Senators were taken. Before you suggest drastically altering the present arrangement you would need a scheme to provide, not fair greens, but proper markets with pens outside the town.

If that could be done and if people knew that they were not going to herd the cattle upon the fair green, which is generally the coldest and the darkest place, you might get a certain amount of support behind it, but if you are going to go still further and say that fairs are going to be started at certain hours, it is not worth it. It may be so, but I do not think it is worth it for the reasons I have stated. I am in thorough agreement with people who say there is very much room for improvement; there is no doubt about it, but it is not something that can be done without a certain amount of consideration. I think the motion has done a certain amount of good and I am only sorry there are not more people in the House to discuss it, because if there were we might hear of ideas which might be helpful to the Minister and lead various sections to take an interest in the matter. On the question of what can be done in regard to fixing hours I have not much hope, but I have great hope that something can be done for the betterment of the cattle-raising industry as a whole.

Mr. McGee

I endorse what the last Senator has said. I do not like to see much interference and I warn the Department to walk warily in this matter. Old customs have been long established and it would be a pity to introduce up-to-date methods without due consideration of what has been established by these customs. There is a good deal to be said about the undesirability of holding fairs on the streets, but those responsible for the management of the towns represent the elected urban council. At times they have tried to force the sale of cattle on fair greens, but the opposition of country people, who had not the slightest influence on the urban councils, but had with the shopkeepers, who largely formed it, forced them to relax any regulations prohibiting the holding of fairs on streets. There is everything to be said for keeping the towns clean. In one town which I know there is a fair green and they had to revert to allowing cattle on the streets because country people would not go back to the fair green in the afternoon after they had done their business. They had to employ five or six men and after some hours the streets were as clean as the Dublin cattle market.

The Department recently brought in a change which had a bad effect on farmers. The Dublin market was changed from Thursday to Wednesday. Old customs had been established and fairs were held on allotted days. Navan, I think, held a fair on Monday, Cavan on Tuesday, and Louth on Wednesday. In Louth we were accustomed to exhibit stock on Wednesday and found many buyers from Dublin coming to buy cattle which were exhibited in Dublin on Thursday. When the market was changed we found it meant that 50 per cent. of the market to which we were accustomed was no longer with us and we had to change the fairs to Tuesday. The effect was that Cavan and Louth were having fairs on Tuesday. Cavan and Kingscourt are well known places for breeders. I warn the Department to walk warily and not to allow old customs to be interfered with. There is everything to be said for cleanliness but, after all, there is an old saying, "where the muck is, the luck is," and I do not like disturbing old customs. Senator Quirke's speech made the most appeal to me. When we make changes we do not know but they may be the means of inflicting a loss of £10 to £15 on a farmer. I hope the Department will not go too fast with such improvements.

Mr. Baxter

I do not think the cattle trade would suffer by the introduction of orderly methods where there is considerable disorder at present. The primary consideration is the awful hardships that are imposed on farmers in certain areas where the custom of very early fairs exists. The hardships especially in the driving of cattle and pigs are really unbelievable. The stories one hears are not the stories one would expect to hear in a country like this, which is well served with ports and has a tolerably good system of transport.

While saying that, I sympathise, to a certain extent, with the view of Senator McGee and Senator Quirke. If one undertakes some reform in haphazard fashion, one may cause considerable dislocation; regulations may be made which cannot be applied generally without creating considerable hardships in particular districts.

Examination of the whole position is required before we definitely decide that the Minister should do what Senator O'Dwyer suggests. I hope that this motion will induce the Minister to take the initiative in going into the whole question of the marketing of our live stock with a view to seeing whether or not it is possible to introduce more orderly methods, generally. In the greater number of our towns in County Cavan, we have cattle greens to which the farmers take their cattle. If you take your cattle into the square in the town of Cavan, when business is finished in the fair green, the town surveyor or some of his staff will quickly order you off, and you will be prosecuted if you disobey. Cattle will not be allowed to take their stand anywhere in the town. Over our country, generally, trading is done in the fair greens.

The main problem which, I think, Senator O'Dwyer has in mind, is that of the unnatural hour at which men have to drive their live stock along the road. That must have caused the death of many a good man in the past. As the race declines, in the physical sense, I am afraid that practice will be more harmful. The hardships which the present customs impose upon people in certain districts are very great, and it would be worth while inquiring whether better methods could not be substituted. As Senator Quirke says, there is the problem of the transporting of the stock to the other end, which may be London, York, or Carlisle. We may be trying to get some of the cattle in the fair on to the boat at the North Wall at 8 o'clock that night. That boat has to reach the other side at a certain hour, and has to catch the train for London which, in addition to taking our cattle, may be also carrying dead meat to the Smithfield market, where it will arrive at 4 o'clock in the morning. I travelled on the train myself, and was in Smithfield when some of this meat was taken off.

It is unfortunate that a great number of our fairs have to be held at rather unearthly hours because a certain small proportion of the cattle from these fairs may have to be sent across to the other side. I do not know if we could do anything to reorganise our system of marketing so as to make it possible for farmers to market cattle which are to be sent out of the country on a particular day and at a particular hour and have another day and another hour for the stock that are part of our own internal trade. These latter cattle could be sent to Meath or Kildare or South Tipperary at 5 or 6 o'clock in the evening as well as at 2 or 3 o'clock.

Mr. Quirke

That is practically what is happening. The cattle to be shipped come to the fair and leave it before the others come in.

Mr. Baxter

We have had the present position for a long time and the desired change might involve a revolution of our methods. It might necessitate discussion with transport companies on the other side. On the other hand, if I were a purchaser of live stock for transport to the other side and if I had to keep them an extra day, I am afraid I should try to make the man who sold them to me pay the cost of the delay. We know that the live stock leaving the country have to reach markets on particular days on the other side, so that the whole position is very involved. It is not a question that can be lightly considered; it needs exhaustive examination. I shall not go into the aspect of the question referred to by Senator O'Donovan. There is need for discussion in that respect, too.

The Minister will not be blamed if, having been urged, he sees fit to inquire into the question of tidier methods. A considerable number of our people have suffered hardships owing to the present methods of marketing live stock. I am not prepared to say that we could have our present markets without imposing these hardships but I should like to see the matter inquired into. If these hardships can be eliminated, then, in the name of common sense and of the welfare of the people, not to mention the live stock, we should try to eliminate them.

A man who has to drive stock to a market over a distance of ten miles on a December or January morning knows what he is going through and he can imagine what the stock are going through. I am sure the Minister realises that there is a problem to be investigated. He could get a group of people representative of the farmers, transport interests and people interested in the fairs to inquire into the problem and put forward a plan which would be an improvement on the present methods.

Mrs. Concannon

This motion has led, very properly, to a discussion on the modernisation of the methods of marketing our cattle. I was particularly interested in what was said about the desirability of providing market yards for our cattle. We have a very deplorable experience in Galway, where the largest square is put out of bounds for the inhabitants during the holding of fairs. In fact, the situation is so deplorable that the schools are closed during the holding of the fairs because the children cannot reach the schools. Of course, that is the fault of the Galway people themselves. For a time, fairs were held in the fair green but feeling got so strong that the fair was brought back to Eyre Square, one of the nicest squares in Ireland. Unfortunately, the square is near the station and, if you want to get a train, you have to elbow your way through groups of cattle, with great danger to life and limb. For that reason, I hope that this question will be taken up seriously.

This is not a matter that could be dealt with by making an Order. As Senator Quirke has pointed out, a great many interests have to be considered and a great many points of view have to be weighed. In any system of town planning we ought, certainly, have proper market yards both for the preservation of the amenities of our towns and cities and also for the sake of the people and of the cattle at the fairs.

Senator O'Donovan reminded us of the danger of the spreading of disease through the present system of holding fairs in towns. I think, too, that we might remember that there is a great deal of waste of very precious manure. I would think also that temperance would be greatly served if the conditions under which people sell the cattle were made easier. The plea made by Senator O'Dwyer for a more rational hour, a later hour, for the holding of the fairs impresses me greatly in that respect. I speak, of course, out of ignorance, but it is always helpful to the experts in a discussion of this kind that the ordinary person should speak, the person who looks at the matter more or less from the point of view of the outsider, but who is concerned with the interests of her country.

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan)

From listening to this discussion, it appears to be fairly generally felt by all the Senators who spoke that there is a case for consideration, and that something should be done with regard to the regulation of fairs and markets, not only with regard to the time of opening but also to the location of those markets. On the other hand, I think everybody felt that an investigation should be held into the whole matter before any action is taken. There are many factors that must be considered. It is not by any means a simple proposition, and I do not think anybody—Minister or anybody else—would like to lay down the law as to what should be done with regard to markets in general without consulting all the interests concerned. I do not know whether it should amount to a commission, but at any rate there should be consultation with the various interests concerned. I think travel facilities for the buyers and freight facilities for the removal of cattle when the fair is over would have a big influence on those markets. Senator Quirke pointed out, for instance, that the time of the market is very often influenced by shipping facilities and the freight between the market and the port. I think that is quite true.

Again, as Senator McGee pointed out, there may be some relation between the time a market is held down the country and the time the Dublin market is held. Cattle may be bought at the local market and brought to the Dublin market. That might also apply to other parts of the country; cattle bought in one county may be brought along to a fair in another county, and sold again. Those are all matters for consideration. Apart from that, pigs must go on to a bacon factory as a rule. In that connection, too, we have a growing trade here for cows which go to factories also. Then fat cattle are bought by butchers in different areas. All those things have to be considered very fully.

A question was raised with regard to private sales. A lot of people held that it would be better for the producer, at any rate, if private sales could be absolutely prohibited, but Senator O'Donovan pointed out the difficulty of enforcing a regulation of that kind. I take it that no market in this country could be better organised than the Dublin market; probably no market would have the same facility for detecting any breach of by-laws of any kind, and yet those by-laws are broken by private sales. There are others who go further, and say that dealing in cattle should be cut out—that no sale should be permitted except by public auction. I do not know whether or not we should go that far. Then, of course, we come to the question of the location of markets, whether we should have fair greens or whether the markets should be held on the streets. There you are up against vested interests in various areas, and I am afraid that the point made by Senator Mrs. Concannon —that there would probably be more temperance if markets were held at a reasonable time and in reasonable places—is just the point that is troubling certain people in certain towns, and keeping the markets where they are and at the times they are. I do not think, however, that the location of the Dublin market, for instance, could be responsible for the huge loss to which Senator Counihan refers, that is £500,000. If we take the number of cattle going out of the Dublin port, and assess the total loss of £500,000, it comes to a very substantial sum per head.

Mr. Counihan

You have 400,000 cattle exported through the port of Dublin.

Dr. Ryan

Not from the Dublin market though.

Mr. Counihan

Not all from the Dublin market.

Dr. Ryan

Perhaps the two things combined might lead to a very substantial loss; first of all, the location of the Dublin market and the necessity to bring cattle from that market down to the North Wall, and secondly, the point made by Senator Counihan about the necessity for improvement of the lairages there, might be responsible for a substantial loss, but I suppose there is no point in trying to assess what that loss is. I think on the whole the question should be considered by the interests concerned before we do anything about it. I agree with the general consensus of opinion here in the Seanad that something should probably be done. The position with regard to the law is very involved. In fact I do not propose to give a strict outline of what the law is, but all those things have grown up over the years, over the centuries in fact. "Permits," to use a general term, whether by charter or otherwise, were granted in the old times either to the lord of the manor, where the fair was held on his grounds, or to the borough council or the borough corporation, where the fair was held within the walls of the borough. That was done centuries ago, and, as far as I can find out—I think it would take a lot of legal research to get clear on this point—there is no control over such fairs. There was a Public Health Act passed in, I think, 1878, and that gave further powers. They had some powers before that, but that Act gave further powers to urban authorities, whether they were corporations or urban councils or town commissioners, to establish markets as opposed to fairs.

Of course, the same business is done at both, but they were called markets in those cases. Wherever the urban authority availed of that Act and set up a market, they have fairly full powers. They have power to regulate the opening time; they have power to regulate where the market must be held, and they have also power with regard to tolls and so on. A fair number of urban authorities availed of that power to set up markets, but very few of them have gone further than that. Very few of them have made any by-laws with regard to the place of holding the market or to the time of opening.

Dublin Corporation has passed by-laws dealing with those matters, but I do not know of any other urban authority that has dealt, very extensively, anyway, with the regulation of markets in their own areas. That, I think, is roughly how the law stands at the moment in regard to powers.

The urban authorities have certain powers, and the Department of Local Government has certain powers as far as sanctioning anything the urban authority might propose. My Department has certain powers of a vague kind with regard to tolls. Where there is a toll market, my Department has certain powers to interfere. Where there is no toll market, we have no power to interfere, so that the law is very vague and very mixed and it is probably a case where something might be done. The point is how would we proceed if we were going to do anything?

I feel we would have to set up some sort of committee representing the interests mentioned such as producers —the farmers themselves—the cattle trade as we call it, the people who buy cattle and sell them again or buy cattle for shipping. They should be represented on such a committee, because they know a good deal more about that business and the necessity for holding fairs at certain points than anybody else. Then, of course, the railway companies and the shipping companies would be very useful and, also, if it is thought necessary—personally I do not see that it is—the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. My point is that farmers and cattle traders and the shipping and railway companies are all anxious to prevent cruelty to animals, and it is not necessary to join a society for that purpose in order to be humane. Surely we are all humane as far as that goes.

Mr. O'Donovan

Some people may not appreciate it.

Dr. Ryan

Perhaps not. That is the sort of body that will have to be got together to consider this matter. The next point is when. I feel if we were to do it now we would inevitably have present conditions in transport to take into account. Transport is now much more difficult than it would be at normal times, and we might be inclined to come to conclusions now that would not be wise conclusions when the war is over and we get back to normal conditions. I am just doubtful, therefore, whether we should do anything now or wait until the war is over. That is a matter for consideration. On the whole, I take it that if the Seanad agrees to this motion, it will be interpreted by the Seanad and by my Department as meaning that the Seanad thinks that something should be done with regard to markets and the times of markets. If it is interpreted in that way, I am prepared to accept it and go into the matter to see what should be done, in what way it should be done, and the time at which it should be done. I think that is all I could say in dealing with this motion at the moment.

Mr. O'Dwyer

I am glad that the Minister has expressed his intention to deal with the matter. I do not agree that we should leave it over until after the war. We cannot visualise the circumstances that will arise at the conclusion of the war and this would be a very favourable opportunity for dealing with what is an undoubted grievance. The great argument against it, so far as I can understand, would be the difficulty of arranging transport to foreign markets, but I should like to point out that the transport question does not exist at present. Therefore, the present would be a very suitable time for making the experiment of regulating the hours in the morning. Several such experiments by the Department are in operation at present, and if an Order were made regulating the hours at which fairs would be held much useful experience would be gained. The committee could be set up afterwards to see whether the changes would be made permanent or not and they would have experience to guide them. No objection has been raised to the motion in the House, but various points have been discussed such as the removal of cattle from the streets and the setting up of fair greens and facilities in the towns. There can be no objection on the question of transport and I do not think there can be any other objection raised. As I pointed out, grave hardship is caused to farmers, their employees, and to cattle by the continuance of a system which is long since out of date. That is why I ask the Minister if it would not be possible to bring in a temporary Order that would regulate opening hours for the present, and, in the meantime, the committee of inquiry could be set up to decide whether the conditions brought about by the Order would be made permanent or not. I ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.