Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 May 1943

Vol. 27 No. 22

Electoral (Polling Cards) Bill, 1943—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. MacEntee)

In order to facilitate voters in their exercise of the franchise at the coming general election, a considerable rearrangement of pre-existing polling places and polling areas has taken place. The purpose of the rearrangement has been to provide, so far as it could possibly be done, a polling place for each elector at a distance not exceeding, approximately, one and a half miles from his residence. This has involved a considerable increase in the number of polling places and widespread changes in the polling arrangements to which electors have been accustomed. Accordingly I have felt it essential, if considerable confusion and inconvenience to the electors is to be avoided on the day of the poll, that every elector on the register should be informed of the place where he is to vote at the election. It is proposed to do this by making it obligatory on returning officers in each constituency to send out as soon as may be— naturally, in any event, after the day of nominations—a card to each person on the register informing that person where he is to vote and informing him also of his number on the register. The information as to the polling place is required for the information of the elector; the information as to the elector's number on the register is required for the convenience of the presiding officer.

These cards will, as I have indicated, be sent out after the day of nominations. We cannot send them out before the day of nominations. If it happened in any constituency that only a sufficient number of candidates would be validly nominated to fill the seats allocated to that constituency, there would be no poll. The card will be in a prescribed form which, in addition to conveying the information to which I have referred, will also emphasise to the person who receives it that the receipt of a card carries with it no entitlement to vote and that possession of a card is no proof of identity, and that, therefore, the card is, as I have said, merely for the purpose of information and for no other purpose whatsoever.

Provision is included in the Bill to ensure that if by inadvertence on the part of the returning officer, or through some misdirection in the course of post, an elector does not receive a polling card, the non-receipt of that card will not constitute a ground for challenging the return in any constituency, and will not give the person aggrieved by its non-receipt a cause of action against the returning officer.

Those are the main provisions of the Bill, and, as I have said, the purpose is merely to facilitate the electors in exercising the franchise and, to some extent, to convenience presiding officers in dealing with new areas and districts. I trust the House will be agreeable to give me all stages of the Bill to-day. We have done a considerable amount of preliminary work in arranging for the printing of the cards, but it is desirable that these cards, of which there will be a considerable number, should be printed off and sent to the respective returning officers at the earliest possible moment, so that they may arrange to have them addressed and ready for despatch as soon as possible after nominations in those constituencies in which there will be a poll.

Mr. Baxter

I wish to compliment the Minister on what has been done on this problem up to the present, particularly in regard to the rearrangement of polling places. It is a very welcome change and one which was overdue. The electorate are being given a chance which will enable them to do their duty as citizens. With regard to this further effort to indicate to electors where they may record their votes, I feel it is a further step in the right direction. There were a great many anomalies in every constituency and voters had often to go ridiculously long distances to the polling stations. No effort should be spared to bring the new situation to the notice of the electorate. I wonder if some people will actually believe the changes that have occurred when they receive cards. The Minister might be well advised to take steps to bring the development to the notice of radio listeners because of the present lack of communications and other facilities. It is, no doubt, going to add considerably to the work of returning officers, and indeed to the postal staffs. It may well be that it is an undertaking they will not welcome, but it will be unfortunate now that the decision has been taken if the last "t" is not crossed in the effort. The co-operation of all services will be essential and the last card should be delivered by the postman to the most remote voter in time if this Act of the Oireachtas is to bear full fruit. I welcome the Bill and I think the country will be satisfied that it is an effort which was very badly needed to suit the convenience of the people.

Mr. Honan

Like my friend, Senator Baxter, I am sure every section of the Oireachtas welcomes this innovation. It was long overdue. I complained here before that voters have often to pass a polling station and to travel a couple of miles farther on to vote. That has been adjusted now and it will not occur again. When the Minister remarked that a card will be posted to every voter, it struck me, in view of the shortage of paper and postal facilities, that it would be quite sufficient to send one card to every householder. There may be five or six voters in one house and it is obvious that whenever a polling station is fixed for one member of a family it will be the same for the others. It would reduce the number of cards considerably if only one card was sent to each householder. That is a matter which is worthy of the Minister's consideration.

Mrs. Concannon

I can see the practical effect of Senator Honan's suggestion, but I hope the Minister will not accept it, because it seems to me that this way of reaching each individual elector will have a psychological effect. It will bring home to each elector that it is his or her privilege to vote, and that the power which the Government and the Oireachtas exercise derives under God from the people. It is not only a step forward for the convenience of the electors to send this card, but it is really a very timely reminder of the importance of the election, and of the duty of the electors to exercise the power which God has given them.

Mr. Goulding

The suggestion which has been made about the use of the radio in this respect is a timely one. When pointing out to the electors, by means of the radio, the method which is being employed to inform them of the place of polling, why not couple with it a lecture on the duties of individual citizens in connection with the elections? There must be a considerable number of citizens who never exercise the franchise, and a few words broadcast now and again to those people would have the effect of reminding them of their duty to do so.

Mr. Healy

What is the position in the case of electors who have changed their residences? I am speaking chiefly of people who had been living in the City of Dublin. As you are aware, Sir, houses have been built in the suburbs, and a number of people have been rehoused there, perhaps long distances from their former residences. If those cards are sent to the addresses which appear on the register, and the people to whom they are addressed have gone out to the suburbs, how is it expected that the cards will reach the people for whom they are intended?

Mr. Johnston

With regard to Senator Honan's suggestion that it may be sufficient to send a card to the head of each household, I think if he were living in Monaghan where there are large numbers of McKennas and Flynns and so on he would realise that, even then, it would be as much as the rural postmen could do to deliver the letters properly. I welcome this Bill, and I congratulate the Minister on taking this step to facilitate the voters in exercising the franchise. Ten or 12 or even 15 years ago I raised this matter with the county council, but was informed that those facilities could not be provided except by Act of Parliament, and I am very glad that this step has now been taken.

Mr. MacEntee

I consider it a very valuable suggestion that we should use the broadcasting system to inform the people of the changes that have been made in the existing system of polling stations, and to ask them to take particular care of the cards which will come to them giving information as to where they are to vote. With regard to the suggestion made by Senator Honan that perhaps a block intimation to each household would be sufficient, I can only say that we considered that matter, but I am sure the Senator will appreciate that in many households different political views are held by members of the family, and if everybody in the household was not made aware of the contents of the card perhaps unworthy suspicions might be engendered, causing family dissensions. Accordingly, we decided that the best thing to do was to address a card to each voter on the list, even though it does mean a slight increase in the quantity of paper that will be required, and perhaps some additional burden on the postmaster.

With regard to Deputy Healy's question as to the position of people who had formerly lived in the City of Dublin, if my recollection is correct the Senator raised this matter on the Bill dealing with the municipal elections, and I think I pointed out to him then that a person appears on the register and is entitled to vote in respect of the place at which he was residing on 15th November. When the register for the following year is being compiled, of course a census is taken of all the residents of the city, and it is in respect of the places where they are then dwelling that their names appear on the register which comes into force on 1st June. This election will be fought on the new register coming into force on 1st June, and in that new register the addresses of voters will be given as the places in which they were residing on 15th November. I do not think there will prove to have been any such wholesale change in the places of habitation of the workers of Dublin between 15th November and the coming 1st June as to cause any confusion whatsoever, so I think the Senator's mind can be fully at rest in regard to that point.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take Committee Stage now.

Section 1 agreed to.

Question proposed: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Lynch

With regard to the suggestion about persons who have changed their residence there may not be many such people but there is undoubtedly a certain percentage who have done so since November 15th and these people would be in a different residence on election day. If the suggestion that cards should be sent to every householder were adopted they would have to be sent on to the address of those persons who were residing in the house when the register was made and it would devolve on owners of houses to send on the cards to the places of abode of the electors. They might not do that and in that way the purpose of the Bill would be defeated. That is one valid objection to that suggestion.

Mr. Baxter

I do not know what Senators are thinking of with regard to the register. My recollection of the register is that if there were Baxters on it the Baxters were put down in alphabetical order and nobody knew who was father, mother, son or daughter. The names are not classified and it would be quite impossible to identify the householder. That is the real objection to that suggestion.

Mr. Foran

Mention has been made of change of addresses since November 15. We all know that there has been a huge exodus from the country, and naturally the addresses of all those people will be changed. In these and other cases where people have gone abroad, the postman should not deliver a card where it is known that the person entitled to it has gone out of the country. I make that suggestion, as it is very necessary that some safeguard should be adopted, in view of the large number of people who have gone away. If a person entitled to the card is not here, he may be voted for unless steps are taken to prevent that. I suggest that one way would be to have these cards returned where the person concerned is not in residence.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Returned by the postman and not by the householder?

Mr. Foran

Yes.

Mr. MacEntee

Before you pass from that section a question has been put to me I would like to answer. I wish to make it clear that the sending out of these cards by the returning officer is not being done in substitution for the existing right which every candidate has to send a postal packet to each elector. I will bear in mind the point the Senator has raised in regard to absent voters. I think that that might be done administratively, if the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs or the postal authorities could give instructions to the postman that if he gets a card which is addressed to a person who he knows is out of the country he should return it.

Mr. McEllin

I do not think it is advisable to interfere too far on this particular point because, after all, while I have not the slightest doubt about the Minister and the Department wanting to be fair to all, the onus is being placed on the postman and the postman may have his own political points of view. It is too heavy a responsibility to put on the postman, and in some areas it might cause serious dislocation of the whole objective which the Minister is aiming at in this Bill.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I think the administration of the proposal that has been put forward would have to be carefully watched. A postman knows that AB is away or he knew it the day before, but that man may come back. We have built up a machinery to prevent impersonation and other illegalities. It was never very effective, and this is not going to make it much more effective. I think that the idea was that if the postman sends back one of these cards and the information reaches the Department the voter concerned is assumed to be away and if anybody tries to vote for him it will be assumed he is being personated. The Minister agrees that the card will tell the voter that the receipt of it does not guarantee anything. It is merely like an advisory committee. I do not see much in that. If the Minister had tightened up the machinery for preventing impersonation—I am not prepared to lay out a programme for him —so that anybody attempting to vote for somebody else would be more rigidly dealt with there would be something to be said for it. Frequently when somebody tries to steal a vote and prostitute the whole democratic system it requires the swearing of evidence to convict them when they are brought before a magistrate, and I remember that in recent years they were discharged with a caution as though it was a minor offence. I think it ought to be made a major offence. That would possibly make parties and individuals much more chary of trying that sort of trickery.

Mr. Douglas

Fortunately or unfortunately we cannot deal with the whole problem of personation in this Bill. I am inclined to agree with Senator McEllin that it would be a mistake to put the onus on the postman. I do not believe the Minister can devise any means by which all these cards will be returned. At the same time there is a good deal to be said for inviting their return. The card might possibly have a space on it showing that it is to be returned if the person is away. I do not think that all householders will be got to return cards or to prevent personation, but quite a number of householders would do so. That applies particularly to places where there are employees. If cards are simply sent to the house they will just lie on the hall table.

Mr. O'Donovan

The card means nothing more than an indication where the voter is to vote and gives a number. If he is not there it means extra work for the postman to bring it back and in that way serves no purpose. Presentation of a card does not entitle anybody to vote. There is a limit of three days in which it must be sent before the election. I assume that generally the cards will be distributed in a week, or eight or nine or ten days before that. The Parties will also be sending out cards and if the other cards are sent out late they will cause congestion in the post offices. If the postman has the official card and the cards or postal packets of each of the candidates on the same day he will want a donkey and cart to bring them around. I suggest that the State card should be sent out as early as possible. The cards sent out on behalf of individuals or Parties will be sent out near the eve of the poll. The only effect will be that the postman will have to get a few auxiliaries to help him.

Mr. MacEntee

In reference to Senator Foran's suggestion, I should like to say that I think that the postman would only be obliged to return these postcards in cases where, of his own knowledge, he knew that the persons concerned had left the country. I am not so certain that the same purpose would be served if we required every person, who received a card, addressed to a person who had resided in that particular household on the 15th November, and who had not left the country, but had gone to some other address to return the card. Perhaps, the best thing in that case would be to request the householder to re-address these postal packets to the former resident at the latter's new address. After all, these people are entitled to vote in respect of the place in which they resided on the 15th November and they would have to vote at the place appointed in that area. I think, therefore, that it might be better for the present householder to re-address the letter to the former resident at his new address.

I should not like anybody to think that there is not a point in what Senator Foran has said. I have not, perhaps, as detailed a knowledge of the wiles of personators at elections as some members of the Seanad seem to have, but I do know that in Belfast it was always regarded as a very desirable thing to know the registered number, and so on, of the person for whom you were going to vote.

Mr. M. Hayes

How could you vote otherwise?

Mr. Quirke

I cannot see anything to be alarmed about at all so far as this matter of sending out postal cards is concerned. The only purpose that is served by the sending out of these cards is to facilitate the voters, by telling them their numbers on the register, and the places where they are to vote, and if the cards are not delivered, I do not think anybody can do anything about it.

I agree with a lot of what Senator McEllin said in regard to the matter of placing the responsibility on the postmen. I suppose we may take it for granted that most of our postmen are non-political. Some of them, of course, might not be non-political, and I still see no harm in letting the postcards go out. I should like Senators, however, to realise what a burden the return of such postal packages would mean on the Post Office authorities and also on the Department of Local Government and Public Health. Such a proceeding would involve a great deal of work, and might even mean doubling the staff.

Mr. Foran

I am sorry that some members of the Seanad seem to have such a poor opinion of our postmen. Our postmen, generally, carry out their duties with the utmost care and satisfaction, and I think it is a pity that any doubt should be cast on their integrity on a matter of this kind. My idea, in mentioning this matter, was to try to limit the possibility of personation at elections. There is no doubt that a certain amount of personation goes on at elections in this country, and I think that if it were known by possible personators that the card of an absentee had been returned to the returning officer, and that the latter had marked the register "absent" in the case of the voter concerned, the intending personator would hesitate before trying to vote in some other person's name. That is what I had in mind, and I think that if you had something like that in connection with this method of sending out these postal cards, it would tend to limit the abuses that, undoubtedly, do occur in connection with democratic elections. If these cards were returned, in the case of absent persons, and if, in respect of each such person, the register were marked "absent", people would be very chary of presenting that card and voting in the absent person's name, because they would know that the returning officer had already marked that person, on his register, as being absent. I do not think there is anything that could give rise to any excitement in trying to extend this very beneficial idea a little more.

Mr. Quirke

I am quite sure that nobody suggested that Senator Foran was casting any reflection on the postmen of this country, but I should like to suggest to the Senator that, if his idea were to be carried into effect, it might cause a considerable amount of trouble and embarrassment. Take the case of a man who comes back on the day of the election or the day before it —if the onus was on the postman to send back the card, what position would the voter be in then?

Mr. Foran

Well, all I can do is to remind certain Senators of the words of Bret Harte with regard to the "Heathen Chinee", whose ways were peculiar.

Sections 2, 3, 4, 5 and Title of the Bill agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment.

Agreed to take the Fourth Stage to-day.

Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.

Agreed to take the Fifth Stage to-day.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Mr. Healy

With reference to the points I made, I should like to say that I am thoroughly conversant with this matter of elections, and my remarks were chiefly concerned with the position of those people who may have changed their residence between the 15th November and the date of election. I only want to make that point clear, so that such people will not be deprived of their right to vote.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered: That the Bill be returned to the Dáil without amendment.

Cathaoirleach

It has been suggested that we take item No. 3 on the Order Paper next, if there is no objection. That is the motion in the name of Senator Rowlette. As the Minister for Local Government and Public Health is present, it might be more convenient to take it now.

Agreed.