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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 13 May 1943

Vol. 27 No. 23

Transport Facilities for Commercial Interests—Motion.

I beg to move:

That the Seanad is of opinion, in view of developing difficulties for commercial interests in regard to travel by long-distance trains and buses, that the Minister for Industry and Commerce should prepare a scheme, in consultation with the railway authorities, ensuring preferential treatment for users of transport representing those interests, and should if necessary embody such scheme in an Emergency Powers Order.

I know that it is very difficult, in framing an Order, to meet such proposals as I have suggested here, but the hardship and inconvenience which business people have had to suffer during the past six or eight months have become intolerable, and I am afraid that with the further curtailment of buses the position is going to become very much worse. Of course, I admit that I am principally concerned with people who are engaged in the cattle trade, but it is a very great inconvenience for business people, generally. At the same time, in the case of the ordinary business people in the city here, there is not so much inconvenience as in the case of people engaged in the cattle trade. If a businessman is not able to go about his business to-day, let us say, then he can attend to it to-morrow, but it is a much more serious matter for people engaged in the cattle trade if they cannot travel to a fair or market on the day on which that fair or market is held. If they cannot get to the fair on the day on which it is held, then they may as well stay at home, as the fair will be over, and that is a very serious matter for those engaged in the cattle trade. It is bad enough for people engaged in other lines of business, but it is a very serious matter for those who are engaged in the cattle business.

I think that most Senators realise that quite a number of people come to fairs in the South of Ireland from Northern Ireland and from Great Britain. These people have to travel long distances in order to arrive in Dublin, and it is a terrible hardship on such people, after spending all that time travelling, incurring a certain amount of expense, and even incurring a certain amount of risk if they have to cross the sea, if they are not able to get to a fair. It is a terrible thing for such people to arrive at Kingsbridge Station, only to find that there is no room for them on the train. I must say that that only applies to the Great Southern Railways, but I know that it has occurred to myself on several occasions, but I managed to scramble into the guard's van and got carried in that way. I think that anything that could be done would be an improvement on the present situation. In my opinion, it should be possible to have forward bookings, and that priority should be given on these trains to people such as I have in mind.

Recently, for instance, I have seen where forward bookings were arranged by the Great Southern Railways Company in connection with race meetings. The Minister may say that was a special train, but I think that if it is possible to arrange for forward bookings in such a case, it should also be possible to arrange for such forward bookings in the case of ordinary business people or people engaged in the cattle trade.

I admit that people engaged in the cattle trade would not be in a position to notify the railway company of forward bookings as far in advance as in the case of people who are going on their holidays, but I think that it should be fairly easy to arrange for a certain proportion or percentage of the accommodation on trains to be reserved for business people. We have all seen, at Aston's Quay and similar bus places in Dublin, people having to wait in the wet and the cold, and having to queue up for hours in order to get on a bus, and we have seen the same thing at Kingsbridge in the case of people waiting for trains. Of course, we all know that the buses and trains can only carry a certain number of people, no matter how urgent the business of these people may be, but I think it would be better if arrangements could be made whereby people could book their seats in advance, and know that they would definitely get these seats, instead of having to queue up at the bus stops or railway stations.

I am sure that the Minister and most people understand the difficulties of the situation. As I have said already, I know that it is not a matter that can be got over very easily, but I suggest to the Minister that if he would call a conference, including representatives of the national executive of the cattle trade, the various chambers of commerce and the railway companies, some scheme could be devised whereby there might be an easing of the present position. One thing, at all events, is certain, and that is that things are very bad as they stand at present, in regard to transport, and I am afraid that the situation is going to be worse, and I think that anything that could be done to ease that situation would be good. I think it would be no harm for the Minister to call together a conference of such bodies as I have suggested, because it might be possible to devise some means of easing the present position and make it possible for business people, cattle traders, and so on, to go about their business, by giving them priority over people who are merely going on holidays.

I wish it to be understood that I am not speaking, in any sense, against the people who wish to go on their holidays, but I think that in the present circumstances the business people should get priority in regard to the matter of accommodation either on trains or buses.

I second the motion for the purpose of enabling it to be discussed. I have not given much thought to the matter.

I think it is unfortunate that the motion has been seconded. It would have been well to allow it to go back to Limbo, where it should have remained. Imagine a State Department setting up privileges for the cattle trade and for commercial interests and ignoring the rights of the great mass of the community. Surely, we have not arrived at the stage in this country when monopolies will be obtained by vested interests in public utilities. I do not think that more is needed from me to show the fallacy of this motion. It is unfortunate that it was put on the Paper and it is unfortunate that it was seconded by Senator Sir John Keane for the purpose of bringing it into order. In all my experience, I never heard a more ridiculous argument than that we should enthrone the cattle trade and commercial interests and give them priority in the use of our public transport system.

Would you give priority to people going to the pictures as against business people?

Presumably, the internal transport of this city comes within the framework of this motion.

The motion refers to "long-distance trains and buses".

In this city, we have long-distance buses. I presume that I am completely in order and that my remarks are quite relevant to the motion.

The Chair took no exception to the Senator's remarks.

We have to do our business and, even if we have only to rush to Leinster House, we do not get any preferential treatment from the bus undertaking. We have to stand in a queue like everybody else and I do not think that we should be dealt with with any more consideration. If this motion were allowed to go through, it would mean that Senator Counihan, coming up from Donabate, would have a right to a seat in a bus but that other Senators would have to stand by.

I made no suggestion as to what should happen Dublin transport. I referred only to long-distance transport.

The wording of the motion covers the remarks I am making. I hope the motion will not be passed. I thoroughly agree with Senator Foran.

If the Senator reads the motion, he will see that it refers to long-distance buses and trains.

I have read it carefully. There are long-distance buses operating in the city and outside. We call the Bohernabreena bus a long-distance bus. I hope this motion will not be passed.

I have very great sympathy with cattle traders and other business people who have difficulty in finding transport accommodation, under present circumstances, when it is necessary for them to move around the country. However, I do not think that there is any practical solution of their difficulties. I am of opinion that the proposal put forward by Senator Counihan should not be adopted. His suggestion is, in effect, that there should be preference upon the trains and buses for cattle buyers and other commercial interests.

He will see at once that, apart from the practical difficulty of exercising that preference, it could not be confined to the people in whom he is interested. As soon as any system of preference was established, many other classes would justly claim to participate in it. Members of the Dáil and Seanad were mentioned. Surely, they could not be regarded as less important than the commercial interests for whom Senator Counihan speaks. They could not be put out of a bus or train, if coming to a meeting of the Dáil or Seanad, to make room for a commercial traveller or cattle buyer. Similarly, Army officers, court officials and civil servants travelling upon public duty and many other classes would have to be regarded as having equal right with commercial interests.

I do not think that Senator Counihan gave consideration to the difficulties which would be experienced by railway and omnibus companies in exercising the preference. Normally, it would be necessary for them to do something more than merely accept the statement of a person that he came within a certain class. They would have to investigate the claim and that would involve not merely elaborate organisation but considerable delay. The practice established by the railway company in respect of trains serving race meetings constitutes no parallel. In that case, the company have, undoubtedly, a system of advance bookings, but it is a first-come-first-served system. No attempt is made to distinguish between one racegoer and another. Up to the limit of the capacity of the train, they book places for all who come along. The most important racegoer may be left behind and the least important may obtain a place on the train.

It would be very hard to define the "most important racegoer".

What Senator Counihan suggests is something more than "first come, first served". It is a system which would differentiate between the needs of individuals. I think that it would be no easy matter, taking the average crowd on the average train, to decide who was travelling unnecessarily and who had most need to travel. The private individual might be travelling to see a doctor in order to obtain urgent medical treatment; he might be travelling to see a relative who was about to die, or there might be some other personal necessity for him to get to his destination as quickly as possible. To assess his need against the convenience of the commercial traveller or cattle buyer would be an impossible task for a railway official to undertake. At Christmastide, on one occasion, we decided to institute a system of booking intended to ensure that there would be no congestion at railway or bus termini, involving disturbance and excitement in which people might be injured. The net result of our efforts to restrict travel to those requiring to travel was that very few people travelled at all and the trains went out almost empty. Such was our experience that we never attempted to repeat that experiment.

The idea of rationing travel in a period when travelling facilities are inadequate to meet requirements has been considered not merely here but in other countries. In no country that I know has any workable scheme been devised. In Great Britain, they have confined themselves to appealing to the public not to travel unnecessarily. In other countries, they have either left the situation to look after itself or confined themselves to similar methods. Any attempt to operate a scheme of rationing travel would, I think, prove impossible even if we were to provide the enforcing authority with the very elaborate staff which would be required for the purpose.

I can only say on the motion, that I have sympathy with the individuals about whom Senator Counihan is concerned, but I see no practical way of meeting their difficulties. Any inauguration of a scheme of preference in the public transport service would create far more difficulties, I think, than exist at the moment, and I doubt very much if it would attain the result the Senator has in mind.

I am sure that Senator Foran and Senator Healy would much prefer to provide accommodation for people going to the pictures.

We suggested no such thing.

I know that Senator Foran has a definite aversion to people in the cattle trade. Many years ago, when I had a motion on a particular subject pointing out that members of the cattle trade were badly affected, he suggested holding a flag day. That is the sort of encouragement which the leader of the Labour Party has for the principal trade of the country, the livestock trade. That is the opinion of the Taoiseach in the next Government.

You cannot have a Taoiseach in the Seanad.

He can be transferred.

The seat he has is not transferable.

I suggest to the Minister that he should call a conference and we will fix up this matter in a few hours. There are several things we could discuss with the railway companies and his Department if this conference came together. We are not as bereft of brains as the leader of the Labour Party, and I am sure we would be able to devise some plan which would be an improvement on the present position. The Minister does not require the permission either of the Seanad, or the Labour Party, to call the conference I suggested and if we cannot arrive at some conclusion with which he can agree, there will be no harm done.

I ask him on behalf of the cattle trade, about which I was mainly concerned, to call the conference with a view to getting better accommodation for people engaged in the trade. As I pointed out, it is a terrible hardship, as any reasonable man of common sense will agree, for a buyer coming from England to attend a fair in the South of Ireland to be left sitting at Kingsbridge. Even if Senator Healy and Senator Foran snap their fingers and make a joke of it, I suggest it is a matter for serious consideration. I ask the Minister to call the conference as soon as possible.

We will make Senator Counihan prince of the travelling public.

Is the motion being withdrawn?

I would like to hear the Minister.

I have already spoken. If the Cattle Traders' Association or any other commercial association wishes to consider the practical difficulties and to put up suggestions, they will have full consideration, but I think that they will find when they come down to deal with the matter that the difficulties are insurmountable.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
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